Feminism, Sexism, and Entitlement

[ocean size]

Many thanks friend, you have no clue how often that happens =D.

Above all else, I think it's important that we state the problems that are plaguing men as well as women and treat them equally and in order of importance. That is the core of feminism, women just want to be treated equally as men. However, the media has to come up with stories that sell, and oppression against men doesn't necessarily grab your attention as much as those against women or minorities.

On a lot of the feminist blogs and other stuff I see, terms like 'toxic masculinity' are commonplace. It is okay to define something like that around the male gender, but there is no way 'toxic femininity' would ever get used in any context on the same blog. Bad power structure = 'Patriarchy', etc. I understand where it came from - at one point men really did have most of the power and women very little.

However, shaming and guilting one entire sex while raising the other above rebuke doesn't seem very effective. I think both parties would be more willing to participate if it was framed around both sexes.

Right now, I think a lot of men come across this kind of stuff, see the way arguments are framed and how extreme some of the language in arguments is, (or see that they are told they can never get 100% consent and even 'yes' still means maybe) and roll their eyes and move on. I mean there are real issues there, but I am not going to get engaged in something about rape culture if the language used vaguely damns the fact I was born with a penis and equates me with rapists.

It should be about egalitarianism and these problems won't go anywhere (including those that largely affect women) without engaging and involving everyone (including men) in the solutions, no matter who/what is or was at fault.

 

[panamaican]

There are some general, non-arguable physical deviations between men and women that make some tasks more suited for men. There is nothing we can do about that. However, it's purely the "expectation" I have a problem with. Men will always be better suited to some situation, but the expectation that women should cower from the tasks and let men take care of it is the sexism that I'm trying to get away from.

And the ongoing problem is that many women would like to hold on to those expectations. And certainly many women would like them to disappear.

But I think the fundamental problem is exactly the desire to end the "expectation". Is the expectation you're trying to end men's expectation to protect the women or women's expectation of protection?

 

[Deadred2]

Since I'm growing tired of writing incredibly long-winded replies I'll give you the cliff-notes version and let you pick out what strikes you the most.

1. In general women are actually more valued than men by society. This is best demonstrated by the fact that men are required to sign up for the draft at 18 while women can elect whether they want to or not.

2. Men often pursue power, money, and the like more so than women because our society often bases a man's worth on the power he possesses rather than who he is as a person.

3. Women who often commit the same crimes as men get off the hook more easily simply because of their gender, or in the case of violent crimes, will claim what they did is justified due to a man abusing her. Yet if a man were to make the same claim of a woman abusing him, it would be far less regarded.

I can't really remember any others off the top of my head, I'd have to do some more research to remember the rest.

 

[SowingSeason]

And the ongoing problem is that many women would like to hold on to those expectations. And certainly many women would like them to disappear.

But I think the fundamental problem is exactly the desire to end the "expectation". Is the expectation you're trying to end men's expectation to protect the women or women's expectation of protection?

Do men have an expectation to protect just women if they're not their wives, children, etc???

Honest question. Do you feel pressure to do that outside of the women in your life?

 

[Memory**]

Do men have an expectation to protect just women if they're not their wives, children, etc???

Honest question. Do you feel pressure to do that outside of the women in your life?

Yeah if a man is beating a woman right in front of you people will call you a coward. The same way many women empathize for children who aren't thiers

 

[panamaican]

I did not.

Could you link me to something about it so I can catch up and comment?

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown/2012/06/why-women-can-and-cant-have-it-all.html

Here's a link to a PBS article on the story but there's plenty of depth if you look around.

As I recall, a high powered female exec made a graduation speech that touched on feminist issues. A different high powered female took exception to the speech and wrote an editorial expressing her disagreement.

The dual positions ended up debated all over the internet and mainstream media (mostly by women). The story is most fascinating if you read all the competing opinions, not just the original ones. It paints a picture where there is real dsagreement about what should be.

To be fair, both women were in positions that few people (let alone women) ever attain so their options weren't bound by the rules most people live by.

 

[ocean size]

Do men have an expectation to protect just women if they're not their wives, children, etc???

Honest question. Do you feel pressure to do that outside of the women in your life?

I was going to comment that I see it a lot, but often I think the men just want to have sex with the women they are helping/protecting/w.e.

 

[Josh]

Since I'm growing tired of writing incredibly long-winded replies I'll give you the cliff-notes version and let you pick out what strikes you the most.

1. In general women are actually more valued than men by society. This is best demonstrated by the fact that men are required to sign up for the draft at 18 while women can elect whether they want to or not.

2. Men often pursue power, money, and the like more so than women because our society often bases a man's worth on the power he possesses rather than who he is as a person.

3. Women who often commit the same crimes as men get off the hook more easily simply because of their gender, or in the case of violent crimes, will claim what they did is justified due to a man abusing her. Yet if a man were to make the same claim of a woman abusing him, it would be far less regarded.

I can't really remember any others off the top of my head, I'd have to do some more research to remember the rest.

Again, your comments are relative to only a small minority of women and cultures on the planet today. But that seems to be the theme here, disparage women on the whole, and then specialize the target further as your arguments are neutered. A specific class of women in a specific culture that makes up a very small minority of the women in the world have achieved what you claim. It is not time to give up on equality for all women.

 

[SowingSeason]

Yeah if a man murders a woman right in front of you people will call you a coward. The same way many women empathize for children who aren't thiers

If anyone MURDERS anyone then I call them a coward. If a man is defending himself then I wouldn't care either way. Just like if a woman defends herself then I wouldn't care.

Everyone empathizes with children especially younger ones. It's hardwired into us. So that's not a valid comparison.

 

[hohner]

Since I'm growing tired of writing incredibly long-winded replies I'll give you the cliff-notes version and let you pick out what strikes you the most.

1. In general women are actually more valued than men by society. This is best demonstrated by the fact that men are required to sign up for the draft at 18 while women can elect whether they want to or not.

2. Men often pursue power, money, and the like more so than women because our society often bases a man's worth on the power he possesses rather than who he is as a person.

3. Women who often commit the same crimes as men get off the hook more easily simply because of their gender, or in the case of violent crimes, will claim what they did is justified due to a man abusing her. Yet if a man were to make the same claim of a woman abusing him, it would be far less regarded.

I can't really remember any others off the top of my head, I'd have to do some more research to remember the rest.

I fail to see how point #1 means women are more valued by society. What it shows is that men are more valued by the military.

 

[BownArrow]

I never had a problem understanding rape culture. There's this cultural push in movies and games to just have sex with women and gain status from it. And this push against getting attached or anything. So socially there's like there is this goal of getting laid, and you're not always thinking about the person you're getting laid with. That's fine if that's what you're into, but maybe that's not what they're into. They didn't really grow up with that whole goal of getting laid, they kind of grew up with the opposite. So with all that floating around, just be careful who you have sex with. Only have sex if the girl's clearly into it, and not if she's smashed. If you're not sure, ask. No big deal.

 

[Memory**]

I was going to comment that I see it a lot, but often I think the men just want to have sex with the women they are helping/protecting/w.e.

Haha that's so base

 

[Memory**]

I fail to see how point #1 means women are more valued by society. What it shows is that men are more valued by the military.

Lol no it means we are cannon fodder while women are protected at home safe from harm. Lol valued to die! I'm flattered

 

[BEER]

Yes and that is In keeping with feminism as distinctly promoting the interests of middle class white women of the western world. Never would carolee seek to make her art work banal or less innovative by equating or comparing her work the matriarchal tribal customs of many women before her (bone through the nose, elongated necks through rings, vaginal decoration). But then again this the art world not the bush or the amazon. A place reserved for the richest circles.And it is common knowledge her early work was panned by critics. If equality was that important, it wouldnt be for sale. If you didn't know that is your problem.

Everything of any importance in all of history has been for sale.

Try harder.

And the ongoing problem is that many women would like to hold on to those expectations. And certainly many women would like them to disappear.

But I think the fundamental problem is exactly the desire to end the "expectation". Is the expectation you're trying to end men's expectation to protect the women or women's expectation of protection?

The expectation that needs to end is the expectation that women will never be able to handle themselves.

It is okay to make a personal choice, as a woman, to prefer the traditional outlook. That doesn't need to change.

And it is perfectly okay for a man to assume the responsibility that has been traditionally expected.

It is not okay for the expectation to be commonplace in this day and age. Personal choices aside, the only expectation is that women can most certainly defend themselves, provide for themselves, and live outside of male control.

 

[ocean size]

Yeah if a man is beating a woman right in front of you people will call you a coward. The same way many women empathize for children who aren't thiers

Yeah, but you would be called a coward with a man beating another man that was much smaller and weaker. I think the expectation in that situation is just not allowing a grave injustice.

 

[Cicero**]

The dude wrote a book describing the benefits of molesting your children. It's described in another thread.

gently vs genitally

a blatant typo

 

[Memory**]

Everything of any importance in all of history has been for sale.

Try harder.


.

Such as the intrinsic value of human life? Or how about individual freedom?

 

[Memory**]

Yeah, but you would be called a coward with a man beating another man that was much smaller and weaker. I think the expectation in that situation is just not allowing a grave injustice.

Haha no he'd be a bitch and the big guy would be a bad mother fucker. And girls would want to fuck the latter.

 

[BownArrow]

Lol no it means we are cannon fodder while women are protected at home safe from harm. Lol valued to die! I'm flattered

Well, there's a Captain America, there's no Captain Housewife. The draft is bullshit anyway- if any president tried to reinstate it we'd all move to Canada. Let women join the infantry and be done with it.

 

[panamaican]

Do men have an expectation to protect just women if they're not their wives, children, etc???

Honest question. Do you feel pressure to do that outside of the women in your life?

Personally, yes. But my background is a West Indian and Hispanic where machismo is a larger part of the cultural underpinnings so some things are just how I was raised and I don't feel taken advantage of when I give in those values.

In an interesting contrast, my wife is not a woman waiting for male protection. So, she expects less of me than I expect of myself.