Feminism, Sexism, and Entitlement

[BEER]

No offense but the last one doesn't jive with the first 2.

Regardless, I don't see the problem with it being common place? If it's acceptable for women to choose the traditional view then if enough women chose the traditional view then the expectation should be common place.

I'm not saying either is correct but insisting that the expectation not be common place seems rooted in the idea that the traditional choice should be the minority choice which ignores that female choice might lean the other way, doesn't it?

That choice lies only with the female demographic. If a female wants to live that lifestyle, there is nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't think males should have that expectation. The male expectation is the problem. Males have an expectation that all women are weak, defenseless creatures. That idea should be in the minority, because the only people who should feel that way are the women who hold that ideal and life plan.

 

[BownArrow]

The irony is that feminists are sexist. Plain and simple.

We're all sexist. But we aren't as sexist as the dudes on Mad Men. And our kids won't be as sexist as us. Work in progress.

 

[Josh]

I'm not trying to advocate giving up on equality for women worldwide, but I am trying to make a point that we can't lose equality for others in the process. As I've stated, this is in regard to my country, not the entire world.

I'm a student of emergency and disaster management, and a lot of the data in that field comes from the USA. In terms of vulnerability, women and minorities suffer far more than men in times of disaster and hardship. And in my current profession, from both experience and textbook study, women and girls still suffer as the victim in the staggering majority of domestic abuse incidents. Those are only a couple of examples, as I'm only speaking to what I have knowledge of. But that's North America, and that's contemporary.

 

[hohner]

no pretty sure being chosen to die in the hell of modern warfare while other don't have to is pretty clear cut as to who is disposable.

You are 100% wrong, but you have made it abundantly obvious that you are unwilling to look at something objectively. You honestly think that the reason men throughout the ages have gone to war more than women because women are held higher socially? If that was the case societies which clearly look at women as inferior would have all woman front lines, but that simply doesn't happen.

To say that the U.S. government makes males sign up for the draft at 18, but gives women the option, because women are held higher in society is completely absurd. You can't possibly believe that that is the criteria they used to make that decision. You might as well admit that you're trolling, because the other possibility is far less flattering.

 

[BEER]

I think your marriage is an excellent example of what I think should be the male/female dynamic.

Both sides have the option to embrace whatever role they choose.
Your wife has a man that is willing and expects to protect her but she choose to be a little more independent. Just like you accept that she feels that way but you would still drop a fucker who was a danger to her.

That's all I want out of this at least.

This is in better words than I could put it myself.

 

[SowingSeason]

You're an Emergency Manager, Tomax? That was my AFSC!

 

[Terror Zone]

The male expectation is the problem. Males have an expectation that all women are weak, defenseless creatures.

Jesus, I didn't think this thread could get any fucking dumber.

 

[Josh]

The irony is that feminists are sexist. Plain and simple.

Based on the definition of feminism, I would qualify as a feminist, and I can assure you that I'm not sexist.

 

[Memory**]

Well, historically women just couldn't fight in wars- they couldn't swing a sword or hold old guns. Even now it's the physical stuff that keeps them out, but they are catching up and working to get in the army. If women refused to go in the army because they felt they were too important, then you'd have a point. But women are trying to get into the army and aren't allowed in the infantry. And most people consider soldiers heroes.

Nah women fought in ancient turkey, Mexican revolution, etc if women were all about equality the draft would've been the first thing they should of asked to gettin on.
Why would they refuse? They've never been ordered to in America.

 

[KrazyKanadian]

I've read a couple pages of this, and I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

So I'll settle for a facepalm

 

[Josh]

You're an Emergency Manager, Tomax? That was my AFSC!

High five, my well-armed friend!

I'm working on a couple of degrees now, one of them being Emergency and Security Management, with an MA in Emergency and Disaster Management as my goal. Goes hand in hand with my roles as a paramedic and search and rescue professional for the Provincial Emergency Program.

 

[hohner]

When you take it into perspective that men are required to sign up for the draft, have a shorter life expectancy than women, and make up roughly 93% of workplace related deaths, are more prevalent in the most dangerous jobs around, and that breast cancer receives roughly 700% more funding that prostate cancer, the first point comes together a bit more clearly in my mind. I could be incorrect, but the evidence seems to point in that direction.

I am not arguing against your other points, but to think the military looked at the idea of the draft and said "we can't make women sign up, they are too important to society" is ridiculous.

 

[BownArrow]

Based on the definition of feminism, I would qualify as a feminist, and I can assure you that I'm not sexist.

That's a lot of pressure on yourself there- that's years worth of behavior to unlearn, and it's constantly being re-enforced everywhere in society. I think the best we can do is be aware sexism exists and do our best to combat it. Same with racism.

 

[BEER]

Jesus, I didn't think this thread could get any fucking dumber.

Are you telling me that is wrong, as a whole?

 

[panamaican]

That choice lies only with the female demographic. If a female wants to live that lifestyle, there is nothing wrong with that.

However, I don't think males should have that expectation. The male expectation is the problem. Males have an expectation that all women are weak, defenseless creatures. That idea should be in the minority, because the only people who should feel that way are the women who hold that ideal and life plan.

Again, to be fair...comparatively women are weak.

If we can admit that there are inherent physiological differences then your average male is correct to believe that women in general are weak...because they are (as a group). You would fault men for believing the truth?

Nothing against the exceptions because there are plenty of strong women capable of defending themselves from men but they are the numerical minority. I'm not seeing how we can hold the 2 positions as both true.

Physiologically weaker but men shouldn't believe them to be weaker?

Hence my concern about the insistence that "expectations" should be eradicated. There's too many inconsistencies.

 

[Josh]

That's a lot of pressure on yourself there- that's years worth of behavior to unlearn, and it's constantly being re-enforced everywhere in society. I think the best we can do is be aware sexism exists and do our best to combat it. Same with racism.

I'm up to the challenge.

 

[Memory**]

You are 100% wrong, but you have made it abundantly obvious that you are unwilling to look at something objectively. You honestly think that the reason men throughout the ages have gone to war more than women because women are held higher socially? If that was the case societies which clearly look at women as inferior would have all woman front lines, but that simply doesn't happen.

To say that the U.S. government makes males sign up for the draft at 18, but gives women the option, because women are held higher in society is completely absurd. You can't possibly believe that that is the criteria they used to make that decision. You might as well admit that you're trolling, because the other possibility is far less flattering.

Society tells men that is their duty to protect women. You only have look at the slaughter of WWI WWII to know that not having to fight was a privileged position. That's why they call rich boys who paid to get out draft Dodgers, because thier money made them more important. Too important to die. Well women are deemed too important to die. It's not like they have an excuse not to draft them- anybody can pull a trigger or throw a bomb. It's not like its h2h

 

[Deadred2]

None of these things show that women are more valued in society. In fact, it shows the opposite. If men are required to sign up for selective service, socially pressured to pursue money and power, and are more likely to be convicted of violent crimes, it tells me that men are being held to a higher standard. They are being held accountable for the social roles laid out for them, BECAUSE society views man to be more valuable than women.

That's a distinct possibility, however it's also a possibility that over the years men have been viewed as the primary cause of violent crimes as well as power abuse which is why they are more easily and harshly sentenced to prison. As far as men being more valued by the military, again it's a distinct possibility, however the possibility also exists that men are viewed as more disposable than women. I've also heard that a reason that women tend to be more restricted in military roles is not so much that they're not capable of doing the jobs, they're fully capable of doing it, but men are actually more psychologically effected by seeing women in pain or dead than seeing men dead or in pain.

 

[panamaican]

You're an Emergency Manager, Tomax? That was my AFSC!

BTW, I linked that article a couple of pages back.

 

[BownArrow]

Nah women fought in ancient turkey, Mexican revolution, etc if women were all about equality the draft would've been the first thing they should of asked to gettin on.
Why would they refuse? They've never been ordered to in America.

Well those women are probably pretty awesome and special- there were probably a few above average strength women that could go toe to toe with the guys, but if you're going to argue that women were as good or useful in battle as men, then why not throw them into the men's division of the UFC.

As for the draft, I'm pretty sure no one would fight to be a part of something they don't agree with. Especially when there are other things to fight for, like getting into the infantry at all. But I think the only reason the draft is allowed to continue is because people know no one will ever reinstate it. If it were a condition of women being allowed in infantry I could see women being drafted....