Feminism, Sexism, and Entitlement

[Memory**]

So you hate on those who perpetuate 'modern feminism', yet you refuse to help disavow them from what is in essence a fair and just cause? I guess it's easier to bitch than effect change.

I effect change by being fair and civil in my own action. There are many definitions and interpretations of feminism. One Is undeniably perpetuating the distinct interests of women. The name seems to fit. The responsible thing would be to acknowledge the term is tainted and choose a less vague label. Like proponents of gender equality etc. but feminism has political power and women love teh power.

 

[BownArrow]

Link?

Here you go:
http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f48/feminist-protest-against-warren-farrell-2325151/

 

[Deadred2]

For everyone quoting this and applauding, do you have any idea of the plight of women globally?

You do raise a fair point, the points I've made primarily regard the issues in the United States, and there are many cultures in which women are widely suppressed from many opportunities and freedoms that men are guaranteed. Since the conversation was primarily about feminism I mainly thought of it in my general country without regard to the rest of the world. It's actually very refreshing you pointed that out, I wasn't looking at the whole picture and now am. Thanks =D.

 

[BEER]

Her art work is seen by many feminists as misoginistic itself and criticized as self indulgent narcissistic and pornographic. She advocated women's interests which can't be assumed to mean equality. And advocating equality on the free market selling only to the richest most privileged people is a joke IMO.

Before her work, the female body was used in media almost exclusively to contrast masculine interests. You can say whatever you want about her economic interests, but she was a driving figure for feminists, and still is.

Even if you provide no sources for your claims.

 

[BEER]

Of course there are women out there in those fields but society's expectation is that outside of professional circles, the man should shoulder those risks.

Isn't the goal to shift that expectation, though?

There will always be women who enjoy the idea of being taken care of by a man. We'll never change that. What we can change is the perception of women who do not hold the same ideals.

 

[Crazyced]

For everyone quoting this and applauding, do you have any idea of the plight of women globally?

Yes we do. Does it take anything from what Deadred2 said about the situation of men in north America? No.

Why are we raising billions for breast cancer when children are starving in Africa?

Come on.

 

[panamaican]

Isn't the goal to shift that expectation, though?

There will always be women who enjoy the idea of being taken care of by a man. We'll never change that. What we can change is the perception of women who do not hold the same ideals.

But as someone else mentioned there is a perfectly good, non-sexist, reason to perpetuate those expectations.

 

[BownArrow]

I think a part of the wage fairness in regards to maternity leave is also a men's issue, i.e. parental leave. Yes, women are more likely to go off for maternity leave and have reduced wages as a result. But this also means they are more likely to become the primary care giver and have an advantage in custody hearings. Parental leave ought to be more fair, and both parents ought to have an equal share. It's a bit complicated because of breast feeding, but it's not impossible. And real feminism would support that.

 

[Josh]

I effect change by being fair and civil in my own action. There are many definitions and interpretations of feminism. One Is undeniably perpetuating the distinct interests of women. The name seems to fit.

For someone who has as many complaints as you do, being fair and civil is a fairly laissez-faire approach to effecting change. One might argue that being fair and civil is a bare minimum of decency, and you deserve no credit whatsoever for effecting change.

 

[SowingSeason]

Of course there are women out there in those fields but society's expectation is that outside of professional circles, the man should shoulder those risks.

I'm a woman and outside of professional circles I protect myself and put myself at risk.

Just saying.

My shotgun by my bed. My handgun in my truck. My taser and knives on my person.



The only societal expectations that should be placed on this issue is that woman should have the OPTION to fall into a more traditional role or to do otherwise if they choose.

 

[BEER]

But as someone else mentioned there is a perfectly good, non-sexist, reason to perpetuate those expectations.

There are some general, non-arguable physical deviations between men and women that make some tasks more suited for men. There is nothing we can do about that. However, it's purely the "expectation" I have a problem with. Men will always be better suited to some situation, but the expectation that women should cower from the tasks and let men take care of it is the sexism that I'm trying to get away from.

 

[Josh]

I think a part of the wage fairness in regards to maternity leave is also a men's issue, i.e. parental leave. Yes, women are more likely to go off for maternity leave and have reduced wages as a result. But this also means they are more likely to become the primary care giver and have an advantage in custody hearings. Parental leave ought to be more fair, and both parents ought to have an equal share. It's a bit complicated because of breast feeding, but it's not impossible. And real feminism would support that.

Most modern companies allow for paternity leave in an equitable fashion to maternity leave.

 

[Fat Abbot]

Oh Fat Abbot, you're so naive. There are no maidens to rescue here, this is just a discussion. But I get why you're jealous, because I do regularly 'rescue maidens' in real life, and you've somehow clued into this. Good for you.

Sure ya do Tomax.

I rescue the maidens, you save so many ho's youre a hero.

 

[SowingSeason]

Most modern companies allow for paternity leave in an equitable fashion to maternity leave.

To be fair...not in America.

 

[BownArrow]

Why are we raising billions for breast cancer when children are starving in Africa?

Come on.

More to the point why are millions being raised for breast cancer cures when actual experts say money put into research to cures would be better spent on prevention? And why isn't as much money raised for prostate cancer? I think it's a matter of an effective marketing campaign that includes boobs and lots of people profit from. Not to say I object to research into breast cancer cures- two of my aunts had breast cancer- I'm saying the campaign is more about making money and less about women not getting cancer. And it might be harder to market a campaign searching for a cure for prostate cancer, but that needs to be done too.

 

[Josh]

To be fair...not in America.

Oops. cough Canada Rules! cough

 

[panamaican]

I'm a woman and outside of professional circles I protect myself and put myself at risk.

Just saying.

My shotgun by my bed. My handgun in my truck. My taser and knives on my person.



The only societal expectations that should be placed on this issue is that woman should have the OPTION to fall into a more traditional role or to do otherwise if they choose.

Which I can agree with.

I'm just highlighting issues I see in both the media and real life discussions on the subject.

Did you follow that whole back and forth a few months back following someone who had left a high powered government job for a teaching position at Princeton? It was all over the media, articles in a variety of progressive magazines with completely contrary positions.

 

[Memory**]

Before her work, the female body was used in media almost exclusively to contrast masculine interests. You can say whatever you want about her economic interests, but she was a driving figure for feminists, and still is.

Even if you provide no sources for your claims.

Yes and that is In keeping with feminism as distinctly promoting the interests of middle class white women of the western world. Never would carolee seek to make her art work banal or less innovative by equating or comparing her work the matriarchal tribal customs of many women before her (bone through the nose, elongated necks through rings, vaginal decoration). But then again this the art world not the bush or the amazon. A place reserved for the richest circles.And it is common knowledge her early work was panned by critics. If equality was that important, it wouldnt be for sale. If you didn't know that is your problem.

 

[SowingSeason]

Which I can agree with.

I'm just highlighting issues I see in both the media and real life discussions on the subject.

Did you follow that whole back and forth a few months back following someone who had left a high powered government job for a teaching position at Princeton? It was all over the media, articles in a variety of progressive magazines with completely contrary positions.

I did not.

Could you link me to something about it so I can catch up and comment?

 

[BownArrow]

Most modern companies allow for paternity leave in an equitable fashion to maternity leave.

But it's not really encouraged, and I'd go so far to say it's discouraged. Men aren't supposed to be nurturing. And if you are a man with a wife at home and in a competitive job you'd probably lose out if you decided to go on parental leave. It's the difference between legislation and cultural legislation. On the one hand it creates the gender gap, and on the other it makes custody battles uneven.