FBI raids office of Michael Cohen, personal attorney to Donald Trump

[Jack V Savage]

What do you base this statement on?

He seems uncomfortable. You would be too if the office of your personal attorney's office were raided unexpectedly.

"The most likely outcome of the Mueller investigation is multiple indictments of low-level campaign officials and millions of dollars of taxpayer money wasted. No one will be satisfied. Mueller will have missed the big fish, Trumpies will cry that Mueller was unfair, and Democrats will whine that Mueller didn't look in the right places."

Why would that be more likely than Mueller actually finding shit related directly to Trump?

And he's been acting guilty since long before warrants were executed on his corrupt fixer.

Why would an RNC campaign chairman to be considered part of the Trump campaign?

??? You know that Trump is a Republican, right?

 

[MikeMcMann]

Which is the whole point. You don't know, and I don't know, but if you have regard for civil liberties and limited government, it's something to keep our eyes out for.


That never happened.

Right so speculating that Mueller has done something wrong or crossed lines is silly at this point. Lets see due process play out and make judgements at or near the conclusion or at least when we have something more concrete.

 

[MicroBrew]

FAKE NEWS from Fox
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018...-michael-cohen-threaten-everyones-rights.html

FOX News shamelessly and pathetically lies about the raid, misrepresenting it as an attack on the Constitutional right of everyone.

Trump is right: FBI raids against his attorney Michael Cohen threaten everyone's rights

Since when are lawyers exempt from the law / investigation of wrong doing just because they are lawyers. The raid wasn't about trying to find out what Cohen and Trump are up to regarding the Russia probe, the raid was about finding out if Cohen broke campaign finance laws when he paid off Stormy Daniels.

Fox is like a highly partisan rightwing shill, in the mold of FreeRepublic and Breitbart.

 

[Execute]

FAKE NEWS from Fox
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2018...-michael-cohen-threaten-everyones-rights.html

FOX News shamelessly and pathetically lies about the raid, misrepresenting it as an attack on the Constitutional right of everyone.

Trump is right: FBI raids against his attorney Michael Cohen threaten everyone's rights

Since when are lawyers exempt from the law / investigation of wrong doing just because they are lawyers. The raid wasn't about trying to find out what Cohen and Trump are up to regarding the Russia probe, the raid was about finding out if Cohen broke campaign finance laws when he paid off Stormy Daniels.

Fox is like a highly partisan rightwing shill, in the mold of FreeRepublic and Breitbart.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on their logic, you could just have your lawyer commit crimes on your behalf and then claim the government is violating attorney/client privileges?

 

[ScottE]

Why would an RNC campaign chairman to be considered part of the Trump campaign?

Because he is also Trump's personal attorney. Seriously you're playing far too dumb in this thread.

 

[ralphc1]

What do you base this statement on?


He seems uncomfortable. You would be too if the office of your personal attorney's office were raided unexpectedly.

Not unless I had done something wrong that they could find out about. It's like getting audited by the IRS. I've been audited twice and got a bigger refund each time.

The people I worked with got upset when the company put cameras everywhere. If you do what you're supposed to do you don't have to worry about being watched. The ones that complained the most were the shitter sitters that spent a lot of time in the bathrooms. The cameras had a view of the break room doors and the bathrooms were inside the break room area.

 

[waiguoren]

I don't remember where I read it, but denying that he was reimbursed by the Campaign was practically the first thing Cohen did, so it must've been the first thing that popped in everyone's mind

Yet we have people in this thread who are utterly convinced that Cohen must have been reimbursed or otherwise committed a campaign finance violation. I'm trying to get people to realize they don't know what's going on yet.

Since we really don't know what Mueller passed along to the SDNY, all we can do is speculate.

Yes, and this thread is nearly 40 pages of speculation.

Appear being the operative word here. Knowing Trump, Cohen probably did a ton of work for the campaign without ever officially signing up as a member. Shouldn't de facto involvement in the campaign be treated the same as de jure involvement?

Should a janitor who cleaned the Trump campaign office be considered part of the campaign? How about a secretary who filed various paperwork? The main virtue of our system of government is its limited nature. A special counsel's purview must be strictly prescribed.

I look it from a different perspective. The fact that they felt this intervention merited a raid, the fact that Rosenstein signed off on said raid, and the fact that a federal judge felt there was enough evidence to sign the warrant, all tell me that that whatever it is that the SDNY had must've been quite severe.

You appear to believe strongly in the process. I tend to be more skeptical of government. Time will tell.

 

[waiguoren]

Mueller is looking for quid pro quo proof. Cohen was part of that transition period Ukraine "peace deal". Also Mueller has gone back as far as 2014 that we know of as part of Trump's "campaign" and Cohen and Felix Sater (who is likely fully flipped) were working on Trump Tower Moscow business deals for Trump up to even after he won the nomination and even days before the election. They look at Cohen's finances to see if he was making any money, or laundering money and find that he paid out $130K to Daniels, but then shown that he was repaid $130K from somebody other than Trump personally ie Trump Foundation or Trump Campaign.

That's a nice story.

It might be correct, or not.

"The most likely outcome of the Mueller investigation is multiple indictments of low-level campaign officials and millions of dollars of taxpayer money wasted. No one will be satisfied. Mueller will have missed the big fish, Trumpies will cry that Mueller was unfair, and Democrats will whine that Mueller didn't look in the right places."

Why would that be more likely than Mueller actually finding shit related directly to Trump?

And he's been acting guilty since long before warrants were executed on his corrupt fixer.

The goal of the Mueller probe is to find illicit links between the Russian government and Donald Trump or his high-level associates. So far the investigation hasn't found any such links---people will quibble about Manafort but he had been under FBI investigation since at least 2014.

I'm just as confident as before that Donald Trump did not offer favors to the Russian government in exchange for Russian efforts to sway the election in Trump's favor. The main reason I'm confident is that it's a big stretch to think that Russia would be able to meaningfully impact the election results, and Trump wouldn't be so stupid as to stick his neck out for such little benefit.

??? You know that Trump is a Republican, right?

 

[waiguoren]

How would a non-partisan investigation be possible? Where would you find anyone who doesn't have an opinion? Trump has taken divisiveness to the maximum level possible. He hasn't left any room for a middle ground.

No offense, but this is absurd. The real world is not the Sherdog War Room. There are judges and others who are fully capable of judging reality without allowing partisan bias to creep in.

 

[Jack V Savage]

The goal of the Mueller probe is to find illicit links between the Russian government and Donald Trump or his high-level associates. So far the investigation hasn't found any such links---people will quibble about Manafort but he had been under FBI investigation since at least 2014.

I'm just as confident as before that Donald Trump did not offer favors to the Russian government in exchange for Russian efforts to sway the election in Trump's favor. The main reason I'm confident is that it's a big stretch to think that Russia would be able to meaningfully impact the election results, and Trump wouldn't be so stupid as to stick his neck out for such little benefit.

So you finally answered the question of why you're so confident that Trump is clean here, though the answer is not the least bit satisfying (and your answer is a kind of trolly dismissal of the Russian hacking). Even if you don't think the hack furthered the rift between the far left and mainstream Democrats, I think it's odd to think that Trump and his team wouldn't think it would.

No offense, but this is absurd. The real world is not the Sherdog War Room. There are judges and others who are fully capable of judging reality without allowing partisan bias to creep in.

There are. The current investigation is not showing partisan bias (in fact, it's being conducted almost exclusively by Republicans). But any criminal findings will be dismissed as resulting from partisan bias, and that is true regardless of how an investigation is conducted or who it is conducted by.

 

[waiguoren]

Have you been on a different planet?

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/4/11/17218010/michael-cohen-trump-mueller-explained

Definite ties to Trump, Russia and the campaign.

Would a secretary at the Trump Organization be a valid target for Mueller's probe? How about a janitor?

The "Trump campaign" requires a strict definition. Our nation is supposed to be one of limited government. The blood-thirsty partisans in this thread want Mueller to be able to look everywhere for every reason. Sounds like China or Russia to me.

 

[MicroBrew]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but based on their logic, you could just have your lawyer commit crimes on your behalf and then claim the government is violating attorney/client privileges?

That may be 1 possible tactic of Trump and his lawyer.

 

[waiguoren]

So you finally answered the question of why you're so confident that Trump is clean here, though the answer is not the least bit satisfying (and your answer is a kind of trolly dismissal of the Russian hacking). Even if you don't think the hack furthered the rift between the far left and mainstream Democrats, I think it's odd to think that Trump and his team wouldn't think it would.

I think Trump has been a sleazy guy throughout his life. If you look hard enough, you'll find something illegal that he or his associates were involved in. But it strains credulity to think that he traded something to get Russia to hack the DNC or release the results of that hacking.

The anti-Trump partisans are being rational here. Most of them know that "Russian collusion" is a farce, but they believe that Mueller will find unrelated dirt that might take Trump down. That's all fine until the same overreach burns their favorite candidate. All of this is evidence of Dershowitz's position being correct.

 

[waiguoren]

Because he is also Trump's personal attorney. Seriously you're playing far too dumb in this thread.

What is the definition of "Trump campaign"? It seems Cohen was not an official member of the campaign. Would a secretary for the Trump Organization (but not the campaign) fall under Mueller's purview? Do you want any limits at all on the mandate of the investigation, or is it "anything goes"?

 

[MicroBrew]

No offense, but this is absurd. The real world is not the Sherdog War Room. There are judges and others who are fully capable of judging reality without allowing partisan bias to creep in.

Well this investigation isn't partisan since Mueller, Rosenstein , Berman and Sessions are all Republicans.

 

[waiguoren]

Not unless I had done something wrong that they could find out about. It's like getting audited by the IRS. I've been audited twice and got a bigger refund each time.

The people I worked with got upset when the company put cameras everywhere. If you do what you're supposed to do you don't have to worry about being watched. The ones that complained the most were the shitter sitters that spent a lot of time in the bathrooms. The cameras had a view of the break room doors and the bathrooms were inside the break room area.

You would fit in well in Airstrip One.

 

[waiguoren]

Well this investigation isn't partisan since Mueller, Rosenstein , Berman and Sessions are all Republicans.

I never claimed the investigation was partisan. My questions are about its purview.

 

[JadeOwl]

Should a janitor who cleaned the Trump campaign office be considered part of the campaign? How about a secretary who filed various paperwork? The main virtue of our system of government is its limited nature. A special counsel's purview must be strictly prescribed.

Don't be disingenuous. The involvement someone like Cohen probably had in the campaign would've been a whole order of magnitude more important than any janitor or secretary.

And yes, everyone on that level should fall in the special counsel's purview.

 

[ScottE]

What is the definition of "Trump campaign"? It seems Cohen was not an official member of the campaign. Would a secretary for the Trump Organization (but not the campaign) fall under Mueller's purview? Do you want any limits at all on the mandate of the investigation, or is it "anything goes"?

Trump's personal attorney who was engaged in representing him in various dealings during his campaign is not any where close to "anything goes". Its intellectually dishonest to suggest as such. Specifically when the thing he is most known for is a payoff to prevent dirt from coming out that would have hurt Trump's campaign.

He's apart of the campaign because he did work at Trump's behest to further his campaign. By your "logic" he could have handled a bribe from Putin himself for Trump but be untouchable because he didn't "join" the campaign.

But yeah bring up the janitor in comparison to the guys personal attorney handling payoffs to further the guys campaign.

 

[waiguoren]

Don't be disingenuous

I'm not. You, however, might hold the un-American view that the power of special counsel is unlimited.

And yes, everyone on that level should fall in the special counsel's purview.

Define "that level". That was the point from the beginning.