Favorite War Room poster

[Ruprecht]

I can only really consider who I think was the best fighter, and not what their record was. Hunt's record doesn't look good, but I think he was better, at his prime, than AA.

I can settle for Couture in the 10 spot.

Hunt at his peak was pure striker though. He had 5-6 straight losses while he developed very rudimentary defence against takedowns and submissions, and his best fights have largely been determined by the nature of the matchup. AA at his peak might not have been a better striker (his chin alone is a massive there), but in MMA...?

 

[dontsnitch]

Hunt at his peak was pure striker though. He had 5-6 straight losses while he developed very rudimentary defence against takedowns and submissions, and his best fights have largely been determined by the nature of the matchup. AA at his peak might not have been a better striker (his chin alone is a massive ***** their), but in MMA...?

Granted, it's hard to look back at Hunt's career and separate MMA from K1. His KO of Le Banner is a feat in itself, despite him losing most other big fights. I don't see how one could set the line at anything over -120 for either guy. It's going to be a stand-up battle with two guys swinging...

 

[Jack V Savage]

I can grant you that the line does reflect reality in some sense, but only the closing line.

I can't find the history on Couture before the Gonzaga fight, so I'm not sure where he stood. In theory, you're right.

What's really interesting is Werdum's history. Everyone knows he was a huge underdog against both Fedor and Cain, but Browne closed at -385 (!!!) against him, Overeem was -365 (Werdum arguably won that fight but no one has any sympathy because of how annoying he was), Vera was -205, and Gonzaga (the second time) was -260. In retrospect, he's clearly been the best HW between 2010 and the present (in terms of results, there's no doubt), but no one recognized it until very recently. His Elo score is also the second best in the history of the division.

I think people have missed how good he is because part of his success has been a result of him probably being the smartest fighter in the sport, which isn't as obvious as some of the attributes of other top fighters. Not to mention the propaganda wars that I referenced earlier (the MMA media and many fans were desperate for the top HW to be in the UFC so when Werdum beat Fedor, you had outlets putting Brock No. 1).

 

[Tigerknee]

lol I used to like to watch hollywood nicky get all rustled over race issues

 

[dontsnitch]

What's really interesting is Werdum's history. Everyone knows he was a huge underdog against both Fedor and Cain, but Browne closed at -385 (!!!) against him, Overeem was -365 (Werdum arguably won that fight but no one has any sympathy because of how annoying he was), Vera was -205, and Gonzaga (the second time) was -260. In retrospect, he's clearly been the best HW between 2010 and the present (in terms of results, there's no doubt), but no one recognized it until very recently. His Elo score is also the second best in the history of the division. I think people have missed how good he is because part of his success has been a result of him probably being the smartest fighter in the sport, which isn't as obvious as some of the attributes of other top fighters.

Yeah, that Browne fight was way off, and it had people betting Browne at closing. I don't think he won the Overeem fight. It was unanimous, but I'll grant you the rounds weren't lop-sided.

Anyway, you highlight the problem in assessing fighters. Record is not the end-all of a man's skill, and the odds don't always reflect reality. It's also hard to objectively and accurately consider when someone was at their peak and how that compares to another fighter, without being results oriented. As far as I can tell, it's the most profitable sport to bet on for that reason alone. People have a hard time considering variance, and how the fight would play out if it replayed 100 times.

 

[2DUM2TAP]

This thread derailed. Can we get back to talking about how awesome I am as a poster guys?

 

[dissolved]

I tell you what: I tried to briefly compose a top 5 when I asked you, until I realized how hard it was. I'm impressed you actually did this. I got stuck after Fedor.

So what does this list represent? Is this a combination of legacy, success, and skill? Best fighters at their peak? I think you got Mir too high and Hunt too low. Coleman seems a bit high to me, but not outrageous.
I also think if you can include the Monster, you should be able to sneak Bas in, since he fought at HW.

Impressive list though, but would like to hear what this represents to you.

Thanks man. I could see an argument for Werdum being higher and generally some juggling all around (even Mir dropping within the top 8). It does bother me when any fighter doesn't get proper due and IMO Frank has received probably the most disrespect for someone who's been active in the UFC since 2001 and has beat many of the legends (in Nog's case 2x, definitively), been HW champion 2x and fought for the title 3 other times.

But my main point in posting was to call out JVS. It's almost nauseating to me to read his mma opinion. Again, this goes back awhile and stems from reading him comment extensively without watching events/fights.

 

[Jack V Savage]

But my main point in posting was to call out JVS. It's almost nauseating to me to read his mma opinion. Again, this goes back awhile and stems from reading him comment extensively without watching events/fights.

Dude, you made up shit and attributed it to me just like Kone. I'll happily stand behind any of my actual postings, though. And you sound deranged when you say that you find someone not agreeing with you about how good a fighter is to be "almost nauseating" and then make up shit about them not watching fights.

 

[dontsnitch]

Thanks man. I could see an argument for Werdum being higher and generally some juggling all around (even Mir dropping within the top 8). It does bother me when any fighter doesn't get proper due and IMO Frank has received probably the most disrespect for someone who's been active in the UFC since 2001 and has beat many of the legends (in Nog's case 2x, definitively), been HW champion 2x and fought for the title 3 other times.

But my main point in posting was to call out JVS. It's almost nauseating to me to read his mma opinion. Again, this goes back awhile and stems from reading him comment extensively without watching events/fights.

I'll be honest, it's an exchange I'm curious to see.

 

[kpt018]

Thanks man. I could see an argument for Werdum being higher and generally some juggling all around (even Mir dropping within the top 8). It does bother me when any fighter doesn't get proper due and IMO Frank has received probably the most disrespect for someone who's been active in the UFC since 2001 and has beat many of the legends (in Nog's case 2x, definitively), been HW champion 2x and fought for the title 3 other times.

But my main point in posting was to call out JVS. It's almost nauseating to me to read his mma opinion. Again, this goes back awhile and stems from reading him comment extensively without watching events/fights.

The Nogs wins are easily the best in his career, but he has lots of bad losses too where he was dominated. Let's not forget that he was nearly finished before his submission win too. It is very hard for me to rank a guy top 10 with so many bad losses and an 18-11 record. The way you lose is very important too - it's one thing to lose a close decision and another to get outclassed and badly KO'd (by lots of different guys).

And he held the belt twice but never defended it. And he won before top talent was prevalent in the HW division. No chance he ever sniffs a belt if he had guys like JDS, Werdum, Fedor and Cain around during his prime.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I'll be honest, it's an exchange I'm curious to see.

That guy seems totally off his rocker and as dishonest as Kone so I don't even know where it would go. I don't see any way to justify putting Mir over any of the guys I listed in the top 10.

The Nogs wins are easily the best in his career, but he has lots of bad losses too where he was dominated.

I think the Sylvia win was better than the second win over Nog, as Nog was a shot fighter by that time, and Mir was getting smashed. Sylvia and Nog were Mir's two career wins over guys who entered the cage as top fighters. As for performances, neither of those really stood out, as the Sylvia fight ended right when it was started on a kind of fluky injury, and Nog looked like shit. I think Mir looked his best against Nelson.

And he held the belt twice but never defended it. And he won before top talent was prevalent in the HW division. No chance he ever sniffs a belt if he had guys like JDS, Werdum, Fedor and Cain around during his prime.

Also, those two titles were just promotional belts. It wasn't like today, when the UFC belt means you beat the guy who beat the guy. Mir beat maybe the fifth best HW in the world in Sylvia, and the No. 2 guy in Nog. Not the real HW champs either time.

 

[KONE]

Y
Leading up the accident, Mir had a brutal loss at the hands of Ian Freeman, a sub over the corpse of Tank Abbott, he beat Wes Sims by getting stomped in the head, then really beat Sims, and then had the fluky win over Sylvia. Not exactly on a legend track there.

I implore you to go rewatch that fight. Freeman blatantly held the cage on a takedown attempt, and then when Mir had him locked into a heelhook he kicked him in the head, which is also illegal. Big John completely fell asleep in that fight.

He should've gone into it as undefeated, and he would've only gotten better. His lack of explosiveness and general lack of movement has lost him a lot of fights.

lol @ fluky in over Sylvia though.

 

[dontsnitch]

That guy seems totally off his rocker and as dishonest as Kone so I don't even know where it would go. I don't see any way to justify putting Mir over any of the guys I listed in the top 10.

Well, he claims you made some posts in the Heavies that warrants some ridicule. I don't know if you did or not...

 

[Jack V Savage]

Well, he claims you made some posts in the Heavies that warrants some ridicule. I don't know if you did or not...

Kone was the one who lied about me comparing Mir to T.J. Waldburger. That is a complete fabrication that isn't even based on anything real. Then In the Name of made up being calling Mir "heartless" after his loss to Lesnar, which is not something I said or would ever say about any fighter.

Like I said, I'm happy to defend my real positions, but when you're trying to just make shit up that I didn't and wouldn't say and ask me to defend it, I ain't doing that.

What it is is that these guys have a deep emotional need to have Mir recognized out of proportion with his accomplishments or performances. They find it easier to say "Jack said some crazy thing about Mir and hates him" than to say "Jack likes Mir but has generally regarded him as a lower-top-10 HW at any given time and not in the top 10 all-time because X,Y,Z." It's exactly the way Anung argues politics.

 

[dontsnitch]

Kone was the one who lied about me comparing Mir to T.J. Waldburger. That is a complete fabrication that isn't even based on anything real. Then In the Name of made up being calling Mir "heartless" after his loss to Lesnar, which is not something I said or would ever say about any fighter.

Might be a simple mistake or some miscommunication.

What happens in the Heavies stays in the Heavies. Seriously, that place in insufferable.

 

[Jack V Savage]

Might be a simple mistake or some miscommunication.

What happens in the Heavies stays in the Heavies. Seriously, that place in insufferable.

No, there's no possible miscommunication. Looking at his record, I know I've see Waldburger a few times, but his name wasn't in my memory, and I have certainly never posted about him. Nor would I ever compare Mir, who I regard much more highly than I regard Waldburger, to him. It's just a lie to make me sound anti-Mir so she can dismiss my actual positions on Mir. And I don't call pro fighters heartless. Again, it's just something he's making up to dishonestly portray me as anti-Mir.

I love how he brings up Natman, too. That idiot said right before Mir/Carwin that Mir wouldn't lose to anyone but Brock in the next three years and that Mir was the third-best striker in the HW division (after JDS and Overeem). That's the kind of thing that if you're a delusional fanboy who thinks Mir is the second-greatest HW ever, you're like, "right on!" but if you read it later, you feel bad for Nat. He has to have the worst record of predicting fights in all of SD.

 

[dissolved]

Mir 2nd after Fedor? You've got to be joking... or just going for longevity over performance.
It's been a long career, but his most impressive performance was breaking Sylvia's arm for the belt and the last four years have only detracted from his overall legacy.

It's like the 2 wins over Nog (TKO and arm-bar submission/break) didn't even happen! Not to mention Cro Cop, Bigfoot Silva, Brock Lesnar, Roy Nelson, Hardonk and Kongo.

 

[dontsnitch]

No, there's no possible miscommunication. Looking at his record, I know I've see Waldburger a few times, but his name wasn't in my memory, and I have certainly never posted about him. Nor would I ever compare Mir, who I regard much more highly than I regard Waldburger, to him. It's just a lie to make me sound anti-Mir so she can dismiss my actual positions on Mir. And I don't call pro fighters heartless. Again, it's just something he's making up to dishonestly portray me as anti-Mir.

I can't speak for him.

I know I've said stuff in the Heavies that would make me look bad, but only because I have no respect for what I say there.

 

[Jack V Savage]

I can't speak for him.

I know I've said stuff in the Heavies that would make me look bad, but only because I have no respect for what I say there.

No, I don't say shit I don't believe anywhere. It's a total lie. I know the archives are spotty now, but I will honestly retire my account if anyone can produce me comparing Mir to Waldburger (unless it's something like, "Mir is better than Waldburger," but even that I wouldn't say because I have almost no recollection of that name).

 

[dontsnitch]

No, I don't say shit I don't believe anywhere. It's a total lie. I know the archives are spotty now, but I will honestly retire my account if anyone can produce me comparing Mir to Waldburger.

I hope, and assume, that you already did a cursory search, at the very least, to make that statement.