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Evolution of MMA is more hype...

tru3f4n said:
the prime Tito that duck Liddell for years only to take an easier fight with a washed up Couture how'd that turn out...
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Yes, that guy whips Blachowicz and takes down jones at will, culminating in a KO.

Let's see you judge jones by his last few fights and base his whole career off of those. Let's see Adesanya, Usman, Miocic and Khabib lose a step and I will sit back and laugh as you argue with the new teenie bopper MMA fans about how they would whip the new breed's ass.

Context, honeboy, it's context.
 
TrueFightFan said:
I will ask you again, and type slower this time.... What current, lower weight class fighter from TODAY could win an original UFC 1 style tournament with the current UFC roster from HW on down?

That is what tells you that MMA, as fighting goes, has not evolved. You keep trying to compare athletes from today to back then, not fighting. I'm not talking about "the sport" either, pure fighting.
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The guys from the lower weight classes couldn't beat the guys from the bigger weight classes because the bigger fighters have gotten better too. Royce Gracie was able to beat the bigger guys because he was so much more skilled than them that the size difference didn't matter. Khabib would have no chance against Stipe for example because that isn't the case anymore. While I believe Khabib is more skilled overall than Stipe, the skill difference isn't so great that Khabib would be able to overcome the massive size disadvantage. That's why weight classes exist.
Although I do think Izzy would beat most Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights and he will beat Jan next Saturday imo.
Here is the thing, UFC 1 wasn't true martial arts. It was a glorified underground tournament. Which if you're into that kind of thing that's cool, but that shit doesn't belong in MMA. Martial arts are supposed to have rules and be a fair contest. It's not supposed to be tattooed thugs punching each other in the balls.
 
Allosaurus Fragillis said:
The guys from the lower weight classes couldn't beat the guys from the bigger weight classes because the bigger fighters have gotten better too. Royce Gracie was able to beat the bigger guys because he was so much more skilled than them that the size difference didn't matter. Khabib would have no chance against Stipe for example because that isn't the case anymore. While I believe Khabib is more skilled overall than Stipe, the skill difference isn't so great that Khabib would be able to overcome the massive size disadvantage. That's why weight classes exist.
Although I do think Izzy would beat most Light Heavyweights and Heavyweights and he will beat Jan next Saturday imo.
Here is the thing, UFC 1 wasn't true martial arts. It was a glorified underground tournament. Which if you're into that kind of thing that's cool, but that shit doesn't belong in MMA. Martial arts are supposed to have rules and be a fair contest. It's not supposed to be tattooed thugs punching each other in the balls.
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Now, I agree with you on the rules and those have to be in place for this to be a sanctioned sport but as fighters go, true evolution would lead us to smaller fighters being able to out maneuver larger fighters to win fights. However, if the rules of the sport are set and you are a "sport fighter" then you have to train within the rules and this, perhaps, has stymied the evolution of fighting because you are never fighting to stop your opponent, you are fighting to win by whatever means necessary... points, ko, tko, doctor stoppage.

I am not into "underground fighting" but would love to see an open weight tournament with UFC 1 rules to see what discipline is truly dominant. My belief is that it would still be a Jiu-Jitsu fighter that wins it all, HW or not. Think about how a Royce Gracie type fighter (smallish 170lbish 6ft guy but with today's advanced athletic training/nutrition) would have to beat a Francis Ngannou. Map out his path to victory in your head and you will understand my entire point.
 
TrueFightFan said:
You're reaching....
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No I'm not, you know that Usman's size, power, wrestling, and freakish cardio would be too much for the majority of Welterweights from a decade ago. You just don't want to admit it because of nostalgia or whatever. And because you have a hard on for UFC 1, which as I mentioned before, that's a moot point since the 2011 Welterweights wouldn't be able to win a UFC 1 style tournament either.
 
Anybody who doesn’t think MMA has evolved technique and strategy wise is beyond help. The “rediscovery” of techniques still adds to “evolution.”

They key thing to remember is when certain implementations are “considered standard” and not rare techniques.

Think about it, “spinning shite” was frowned upon in the UFC and touted as flowery and too risky to use. Then... people learned how to apply and implement, and now spinning techniques, though not used in every fight, are still considered fundamental techniques along with spinning elbows. It’s not like people freak out if someone sees a spinning elbow....

The game has changed and fighters are truly getting better, either physically, technically or strategically.
 
TrueFightFan said:
If you are fan of the "rock-em sock-em" robot game, then, yes, he has great striking.
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You don't need to have great head movement to be a great striker. If you have a good chin you can be a great striker without head movement, and so far Usman's chin has held up pretty well.
 
TrueFightFan said:
Now, I agree with you on the rules and those have to be in place for this to be a sanctioned sport but as fighters go, true evolution would lead us to smaller fighters being able to out maneuver larger fighters to win fights. However, if the rules of the sport are set and you are a "sport fighter" then you have to train within the rules and this, perhaps, has stymied the evolution of fighting because you are never fighting to stop your opponent, you are fighting to win by whatever means necessary... points, ko, tko, doctor stoppage.

I am not into "underground fighting" but would love to see an open weight tournament with UFC 1 rules to see what discipline is truly dominant. My belief is that it would still be a Jiu-Jitsu fighter that wins it all, HW or not. Think about how a Royce Gracie type fighter (smallish 170lbish 6ft guy but with today's advanced athletic training/nutrition) would have to beat a Francis Ngannou. Map out his path to victory in your head and you will understand my entire point.
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Here's the thing, the sport aspect is the only thing I care about. I don't care about who would win in a street fight or whatever. If I did, I could just watch two drunk bums fight at a bar. I watch MMA to see an athletic competition. Not to see guys get punched in the balls 50 times in a row.
The smaller fighters would all be killed if there was a UFC 1 style tournament today. Again, Royce was able to beat everyone back in the day because the skill difference on the ground between him and the other fighters was so great that the size difference didn't matter. That isn't the case now. People who say they want a UFC 1 style tournament don't know what they are asking for. You guys would find out real quick that the weight classes exist for a reason.
 
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Allosaurus Fragillis said:
No I'm not, you know that Usman's size, power, wrestling, and freakish cardio would be too much for the majority of Welterweights from a decade ago. You just don't want to admit it because of nostalgia or whatever. And because you have a hard on for UFC 1, which as I mentioned before, that's a moot point since the 2011 Welterweights wouldn't be able to win a UFC 1 style tournament either.
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You are correct in that welterweights from a decade ago wouldn't be able to win a UFC 1 style tournament and that proves my point.... neither would today's welterweights. There is no nostalgia in calling out the MMA pundits and hype jobs by the UFC when they say MMA has evolved. The sport itself has, but the fighters haven't.
 
Coconutwater said:
Anybody who doesn’t think MMA has evolved technique and strategy wise is beyond help. The “rediscovery” of techniques still adds to “evolution.”

They key thing to remember is when certain implementations are “considered standard” and not rare techniques.

Think about it, “spinning shite” was frowned upon in the UFC and touted as flowery and too risky to use. Then... people learned how to apply and implement, and now spinning techniques, though not used in every fight, are still considered fundamental techniques along with spinning elbows. It’s not like people freak out if someone sees a spinning elbow....

The game has changed and fighters are truly getting better, either physically, technically or strategically.
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Nice observation. I do agree with everything that you said and mostly because it describes the evolution of the "sport". The evolution physically, technically and strategically all pertain to the sport, itself, and the parameters set forth by the rules. What would a fighter's, a fighter of any size, technical and strategical approach to a fight in which there were no rounds, time limits and a limited ruleset be? Fortunately or unfortunately, we haven't had a chance to find out how today's fighters would do. Is Usman good enough of a "fighter" to be Miocic or Ngannou? Is Khabib good enough to beat jones or Blachowicz? Could Volkanovski beat Usman or any of the other guys mentioned? If the answer is "no" then where is the evolution of the fighters themselves?
 
Allosaurus Fragillis said:
You don't need to have great head movement to be a great striker. If you have a good chin you can be a great striker without head movement, and so far Usman's chin has held up pretty well.
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This is a great example and probably a good reason Usman wouldn't do well at a higher weight class. Bigger guys hit harder and if he has no head movement, he will get cracked. If your strategy going in to a weight limited contest is "my chin will hold up so I don't have to duck" then would it be the same at an open weight tournament? Obviously not but then that would expose his "striking ability" because he would have to figure out how to land the strikes without being tagged himself.
 
Allosaurus Fragillis said:
No I'm not, you know that Usman's size, power, wrestling, and freakish cardio would be too much for the majority of Welterweights from a decade ago.
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I think this says more about how good Usman is than the quality of WW now compared to then. If you look at the rest of the division i dont think Colby, Leon, Wonderboy, Burns et al are better than Fitch, Hendricks, Shields, Nick etc. And obviously Woodley, Jorge and Maia were already around a decade ago.
 
TrueFightFan said:
Nice observation. I do agree with everything that you said and mostly because it describes the evolution of the "sport". The evolution physically, technically and strategically all pertain to the sport, itself, and the parameters set forth by the rules. What would a fighter's, a fighter of any size, technical and strategical approach to a fight in which there were no rounds, time limits and a limited ruleset be? Fortunately or unfortunately, we haven't had a chance to find out how today's fighters would do. Is Usman good enough of a "fighter" to be Miocic or Ngannou? Is Khabib good enough to beat jones or Blachowicz? Could Volkanovski beat Usman or any of the other guys mentioned? If the answer is "no" then where is the evolution of the fighters themselves?
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We can’t say for certain, the answer is “We don’t know.”

But truthfully, the average MMA fighter does use more varied techniques in combination than in the past. They blend multiple techniques together more seamlessly.

I mean, look at the takedowns. Before you had Coleman style doubles, basic stuff, now you got guys using a over the shoulder & single leg combined to force a takedown, like Frankie Edgar likes to do. You simply didn’t see that stuff back in the day. Calf kicks? I’m sure they’ve been around since Burma and Siam were going at it, but notice how they implement them with more regularity now?

The sport has evolved, the athletes are getting better using a variety of tools and strategies. We don’t know what would happen in an old school tourney which I’m very familiar with, but that doesn’t mean they’d lose, we just don’t know.

One thing is certain, without gloves and full hand wraps, punching would be more risky. You can break your hand even if you win, and fighting 3-4 times in one night would be virtually impossible, without taking tons of punishment. Gordeau fought Royce after spraining his wrist, having his foot bandaged from Tuli’s tooth. That’s not what you want to have going into a new fight.
 
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Allosaurus Fragillis said:
Here's the thing, the sport aspect is the only thing I care about. I don't care about who would win in a street fight or whatever. If I did, I could just watch two drunk bums fight at a bar. I watch MMA to see an athletic competition. Not to see guys get punched in the balls 50 times in a row.
The smaller fighters would all be killed if there was a UFC 1 style tournament today. Again, Royce was able to beat everyone back in the day because the skill difference on the ground between him and the other fighters was so great that the size difference didn't matter. That isn't the case now. People who say they want a UFC 1 style tournament don't know what they are asking for. You guys would find out real quick that the weight classes exist for a reason.
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I feel like we are turning a corner, brother. I understand why there are rules and weight classes. We would not have enjoyed the growth of the sport and it has been great to watch but my original post is based on exactly what you said and maybe, just maybe, we are agreeing on the same thing in a different way. The sport HAS EVOLVED but I don't think the fighters have. It probably has to do with the ruleset that they are training for. Gracie was more skilled than all of the fighters in UFC 1, 2, 3 and 4 but he was also severely outsized and out muscled by most of his competition. Take into account that for a few of his fights, they were on the ground with very little action but weren't stood up because of inactivity. One fight he won by holding on to a guy's hair and another by faking a kick to the nuts and going in for a takedown. He also had a couple of fights where 12-6 elbows to the back of his opponents head softened him up to sink in a choke and if you take all of those away with rules, hell, Gracie would have gotten his ass kicked back then, forget about now.

Do you see where I'm going with this, now?
 
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