Evidence of Jones' Guilt

[Cracked_Rib]

yeah, he's just stupid......anything can be explained away just by calling someone stupid.

You still don't understand. It's got nothing to do with calling Jon names. You implied that reingesting Turinabol and intentionally risking his career wouldn't make sense. You're right, it wouldn't for a normal person. But Jon is not a normal person, since a normal person that know he's gonna get tested wouldn't ingest random dick pills he got from a gas station either. Do you realize where your reasoning fails or not?

again, how the fuck does someone prove innocence? you can't even try to come up with a how.

How about you answer my question instead of throwing a hissy fit:
Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?

 

[kflo]

@kflo I appreciate our back and forth and I’d like to think we’ve both learned things from each other. But I’m going to bow out of this thread for awhile. I have way too much to learn about

A) mass spectrometry
B) metabolism models
C) statistical machine learning (like two textbooks worth)

etc. before I am willing to assert anything; I want to go from engaging in skepticism to proper science. I’m going to try and a build a user-friendly app for Cowan’s model instead of just a computer script. After doing so I’m going to try and reach out to him through an old professor whose area of research is machine learning applied to mass spectrometry. I do have a contact in big pharma who may know a thing or two about drug metabolism.


I’m not even going to make this about Jones but about science in general. That new paper made me rethink a lot of what I previously thought about shorter term metabolites.

I do wish the data in that paper was more specific: actual excretion curves of various metabolites for various subjects. I’d like to know if short term metabolites pulse as well as that would be much more informative than just the “max detectable day”; if shorter term metabolites are only detectable “some of the time” throughout their excretion curve then that greatly reduces the chance of catching them.

I’ll probably make one more post about applying Cowan’s model to the excretion curve in the OP. Applying the multi-dose scheme then extrapolating as opposed to the other way around (which I did previously).

Good luck in your journey. You’re a good dude. Maybe some day you’ll be the guy who cracks all the codes.

Remember, on the excretion curve in the OP, you should allow for some wide variability. Both across individuals, but even for any individual from cycle to cycle. A lot we don’t know…..

And your boy OP was quick to add your 1–>87 but hasn’t yet edited for your less dramatic update……

 

[kflo]

You still don't understand. It's got nothing to do with calling Jon names. You implied that reingesting Turinabol and intentionally risking his career wouldn't make sense. You're right, it wouldn't for a normal person. But Jon is not a normal person, since a normal person that know he's gonna get tested wouldn't ingest random dick pills he got from a gas station either. Do you realize where your reasoning fails or not?

He got the dick pill from a friend. I know it’s more damning to say he just got it at a gas station….

How about you answer my question instead of throwing a hissy fit:
Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?

Lol. I have to answer your question but you don’t have to answer how someone could prove innocence?

It’s not about giving athletes the benefit of the doubt. It’s about what is a fair standard. Suggesting someone has to prove innocence when its not even possible is not a fair standard.

 

[Cracked_Rib]

He got the dick pill from a friend. I know it’s more damning to say he just got it at a gas station….

How is it any more rational to take a random pill from "a friend" when you're a pro athlete?

Lol. I have to answer your question but you don’t have to answer how someone could prove innocence?

It’s not about giving athletes the benefit of the doubt. It’s about what is a fair standard. Suggesting someone has to prove innocence when its not even possible is not a fair standard.

Again:
Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?

Before you answer this question you're just disingenuous to me and it makes no sense answering any of yours.

 

[UsernameLOL]

Good luck in your journey. You’re a good dude. Maybe some day you’ll be the guy who cracks all the codes.

Remember, on the excretion curve in the OP, you should allow for some wide variability. Both across individuals, but even for any individual from cycle to cycle. A lot we don’t know…..

And your boy OP was quick to add your 1–>87 but hasn’t yet edited for your less dramatic update……

Oh I totally agree about inter-individual variability. This is just a starting point.

and thank you for the kind words.

You are also a good dude.

 

[OverhandRightKayo]

How is it any more rational to take a random pill from "a friend" when you're a pro athlete?



Again:
Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?

Before you answer this question you're just disingenuous to me and it makes no sense answering any of yours.

Precisely.

This guy supporting the PED cheater is what strengthens the system of corruption and gives cowards and frauds a safe haven, in combat sports for instance.

Once a cheater, forever a cheater. Imagine being busted around 4 times for the whole world to see and be recorded in the history books forever.

Coward, fraud, corrupt, cheat, never-been.

That's all the PED user will be known for.

 

[kflo]

How is it any more rational to take a random pill from "a friend" when you're a pro athlete?

i never said jones doesn't make bad decisions. he likes to party, he likes to do drugs. making bad decisions doesn't mean you are stupid.

the pill he allegedly took isn't inherently an illegal substance. it was allegedly tainted with illegal substances that aren't supposed to be there. it was stupid to take it for sure (assuming that happened). this is why the arbitration agreement explicitly use the words that he "is not a drug cheat" (related to that specific case).

Again:
Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?

Before you answer this question you're just disingenuous to me and it makes no sense answering any of yours.

what is disingenuous about saying a fair standard is needed? and that needing to prove something impossible to prove is not a fair standard. you're clearly not answering the question because you're unable to.

 

[kflo]

Precisely.

This guy supporting the PED cheater is what strengthens the system of corruption and gives cowards and frauds a safe haven, in combat sports for instance.

Once a cheater, forever a cheater. Imagine being busted around 4 times for the whole world to see and be recorded in the history books forever.

Coward, fraud, corrupt, cheat, never-been.

That's all the PED user will be known for.

lol. you're like a religious crusader. you post nothing of substance ever. you're a caricature. you're not at all interested in any facts, just labels. once a cheater forever a cheater is the stupidest fuckin line. it's meaningless.

 

[Cracked_Rib]

the pill he allegedly took isn't inherently an illegal substance. it was allegedly tainted with illegal substances that aren't supposed to be there. it was stupid to take it for sure (assuming that happened). this is why the arbitration agreement explicitly use the words that he "is not a drug cheat" (related to that specific case).

So now that we established that Jon does stupid things and makes bad decisions on a regular basis how exactly does you argument apply that Jon is not likely to do something because it is risky or makes no sense to rational people? Because it doesn't.

what is disingenuous about saying a fair standard is needed? and that needing to prove something impossible to prove is not a fair standard. you're clearly not answering the question because you're unable to.

You are disingenuous by acting like youre neutral when you're clearly not, which is evidenced by your refusal to answer a very simple and straightforward question. So again:
"Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?"

PS: I can and I will answer yours, but I already told you my condition. If you can't answer my simple question there's literally no point talking to you because you're probably autistic or smth.

 

[OverhandRightKayo]

lol. you're like a religious crusader. you post nothing of substance ever. you're a caricature. you're not at all interested in any facts, just labels. once a cheater forever a cheater is the stupidest fuckin line. it's meaningless.

OP has sufficient facts for anyone and everyone to see.

Let me try to bring your in-denial/shill self back to reality with TS' compiled facts:

Apr 2012: The drug test results for UFC 145 (headlined by Jones) aren't released to the public; Andy Foster (current CSAC director), who publicly supported Jones' innocence throughout 2017-2018, served as the athletic commission's director in Georgia at the time.


Jan 2015: Greg Howard (who spent a lot of time with Jones to write a comprehensive article on him), reported that Jones was rumored to have hid under the octagon when the drug testers showed up at JacksonWink, prior to the first Cormier fight.

Jones confirmed that he did in fact hide under the octagon to avoid drug testers:


Screenshot of Tweet:


Keep in mind, marijuana isn't prohibited out of competition, so there would be no reason for Jones hiding from drug testers. And if he did smoke a blunt close enough to fight night, why didn't Jones' test positive for marijuana? Jones' excuse falls apart easily.

Jones has a suspiciously low T/E ratio that deviates 80% from his previous reading; the UFC-USADA drug program was not in effect at this time.


Mar 2016: Frank Mir, teammate of Jon Jones, fails drug test for Oral Turinabol.

Jun 2016: Jones tests positive for Clomiphene and Letrozole.
Jones allegedly claims to have ingested a penis pill.
The penis pill, however, contained a third banned substance, of which Jones did not test positive for.
Jones claimed his friend gave him the penis pill.
This friend provided an invoice for the purchase of the penis pill, and on the same invoice was an order for Clomiphene (one of the two substances Jones was flagged for).
Common sense dictates that Jones used a middle-man to purchase his PEDs, and bought the penis pill preemptively as an excuse in case he got caught, but never actually ingested the penis pill, otherwise the third banned substance would've shown up.
Apr 2017: Frank Mir receives a two year suspension as a first time offender for Oral Turinabol.

Aug 2017: During his FOX interview, Jones slips up and says that he defeated Cormier "off steroids". His silence afterwards says more than any words could.



Jul 2017: Jones tests positive for Oral Turinabol, the same substance teammate Frank Mir tested positive for back in March of 2016.

Feb 2018: During Jones' CSAC hearing, it's discovered that:
He failed to report 10 supplements to United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) prior to his performance at UFC 214, despite signing a document that said he did, and that he only disclosed their existence when they were sent to the lab to be tested for banned substances (after his failed drug test).
Jones admitted he never watched mandated tutorials provided by USADA in both 2015 and 2016, instead passing them off to his management to take in his place (including having them forge his signature to confirm that he took said tutorials).
Precedent:


Cerrone recently said that JacksonWink's main wrestling coach used to be a junior assistant coach at some no-name college and was fired for selling kids steroids:
(Timestamped)


Oct 2017-Jul 2018:

Jones is not tested at any point by USADA.

Sep 2018:

Jones received 4 years, but was able to get his suspension reduced to 15 months as a result of snitching; the 4 year suspension can still be reinstated if Jones' snitching doesn't pan out.

Dec 2018:

Jones tests positive for turinabol metabolite:
12/9/18: 60 pg/ml

NSAC denies Jones a license.

It's been reported that Jones failed an additional three drug tests:
7/28/18: 80 pg/ml
8/29/18: 8 pg/ml
9/18/18: 19 pg/ml


In addition to the above study, the longest detection window given by other experts was no greater than 6 months regarding the M3 metabolite; Jones had it in his system for over 18 months, which would've required a new ingestion of Turinabol and thereby debunked the "pulsing" excuse.

Jan 2019:

Jones tests positive for turinabol metabolite (through VADA):
12/28/18: 33 pg/ml

Feb 2019

Jones tests positive for turinabol metabolite:
2/14/19: 40 pg/ml
2/15/19: 20 pg/ml

Oct 2017

Study suggests the M3 metabolite doesn't remain in one's system past 250-300 days, meanwhile Jones was testing positive 543 days after his allegedly single time ingestion, thereby proving that he was ingesting turinabol after his first failed test for it back in 2017:


With regards to the lack of short-term metabolites in Jones' system:

You can keep digging yourself deeper into the hole.

Jon PED Jones is done and that's all he'll be known for.

 

[kflo]

So now that we established that Jon does stupid things and makes bad decisions on a regular basis how exactly does you argument apply that Jon is not likely to do something because it is risky or makes no sense to rational people? Because it doesn't.

sorry, i'm a rational person and i fully understand partying and taking recreational drugs even if they may not be "smart" choices. taking 1 dick pill that isn't inherently a violation is not remotely the same "bad" choice as engaging in a prolonged doping scheme for performance benefit that will almost certainly get detected and destroy your career. lumping them together isn't really being an honest broker.

You are disingenuous by acting like youre neutral when you're clearly not, which is evidenced by your refusal to answer a very simple and straightforward question. So again:
"Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?"

because there is no hard evidence he reingested and because pulsing is the more logical explanation given everything we know. there is no doping scheme known that would have made sense and there's no evidence he engaged in one after the first m3 sanction.

your turn....

 

[kflo]

OP has sufficient facts for anyone and everyone to see.

Let me bring your in-denial/shill self to reality with TS' compiled facts:



You can keep digging yourself deeper into the hole.

Jon PED Jones is done and that's all he'll be known for.

ts filled his op with inaccuracies and lies and is a 1 sided hack piece. he's not interested in the truth and neither are you.

again, i don't care what you think about jones. feel free to call him whatever makes you happy.

but just don't get in the way of the facts.

later.....

 

[OverhandRightKayo]

ts filled his op with inaccuracies and lies and is a 1 sided hack piece. he's not interested in the truth and neither are you.

again, i don't care what you think about jones. feel free to call him whatever makes you happy.

but just don't get in the way of the facts.

later.....

Keep digging....

Later.

Hope you come out of your denial or shill-job let's you go.

Cheaters never prosper.

 

[Cracked_Rib]

sorry, i'm a rational person and i fully understand partying and taking recreational drugs even if they may not be "smart" choices. taking 1 dick pill that isn't inherently a violation is not remotely the same "bad" choice as engaging in a prolonged doping scheme for performance benefit that will almost certainly get detected and destroy your career. lumping them together isn't really being an honest broker.


because there is no hard evidence he reingested and because pulsing is the more logical explanation given everything we know. there is no doping scheme known that would have made sense and there's no evidence he engaged in one after the first m3 sanction.

your turn....

Completely ignored the question, lmao. Could you at least act like you tried?

 

[kflo]

Completely ignored the question, lmao. Could you at least act like you tried?

yeah, i did. you just don't like the answer. i did answer it.

i'll repeat it for you

because there is no hard evidence he reingested and because pulsing is the more logical explanation given everything we know. there is no doping scheme known that would have made sense and there's no evidence he engaged in one after the first m3 sanction.​

 

[Cracked_Rib]

yeah, i did. you just don't like the answer. i did answer it.

"Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?"

"because there is no hard evidence he reingested and because pulsing is the more logical explanation given everything we know. there is no doping scheme known that would have made sense and there's no evidence he engaged in one after the first m3 sanction."

This is NOT an answer to the question. It is completely ignoring it and reminding of a politician more than an honest answer, hence only confirming that you're disingenuous.

 

[OverhandRightKayo]

"Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?"

"because there is no hard evidence he reingested and because pulsing is the more logical explanation given everything we know. there is no doping scheme known that would have made sense and there's no evidence he engaged in one after the first m3 sanction."

This is NOT an answer to the question. It is completely ignoring it and reminding of a politician more than an honest answer, hence only confirming that you're disingenuous.

This guy actually called TS' publicly accessible evidence a one sided hack piece.

Can you believe it @Cracked_Rib ?

LOL

Denial has no bounds.

 

[kflo]

"Would you personally give somebody the benefit of the doubt that cheated you twice already?"

Where did you answer this?

if i was a district attorney and someone had already been convicted twice, i'd still need to have solid evidence to try them for a third crime.......

this isn't something personal done to me.

 

[kflo]

This guy actually called TS' publicly accessible evidence a one sided hack piece.

Can you believe it @Cracked_Rib ?

LOL

lol at you calling your buddies for validation....

it is a one sided hack piece with inaccuracies and lies. you don't want to know that.....

 

[OverhandRightKayo]

lol at you calling your buddies for validation....

it is a one sided hack piece with inaccuracies and lies. you don't want to know that.....

Keep diggin....

Shewie!

All your support for the PED-user will be comical at the end.