Ethnicity and Muslims in Europe - The numbers

[sweede]

Thanks man, took some time.

I could imagine. Keep up the good work. You and I have the same kind of mentality.

 

[uppercutbus]

Your numbers are incorrect:

As of 2017, 24,1% of the Swedish citizens have a foreign background. Foreign background means born outside of Sweden or that you have two foreign born parents.
The source is: Statistics Sweden
– a government agency that brings official statistics to the public
https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/.../folkmangd-och-befolkningsforandringar-20172/

Another important measure is the percentage of people in the age group that can repopulate:

* As of 2016, 31,9% of the people between 0-44 years old were of a foreign background.

You are also cherry picking stats, the number of asylum seekers have declined but family immigration is increasing. You are also omitting a fact that in 2003, the government changed the definition of foreign background. A person born to a person from Sweden and a person from a foreign country are classified as of Swedish background, which in turn made a 500,000 people change category.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A publicly employed and left-leaning Swedish researcher named Tobias Hubinette states that:

In 2028:

33% of all children in Sweden will be born of a mother from a foreign country.
20% of all children in Sweden will be born of a mother that is a second generation immigrant or of mixed background.
30-33% of the people in the age span of 25-64 will be of foreign background.
20% of the people in the same age span will be second generation of immigrants.

https://tobiashubinette.wordpress.com/2018/04/28/det-nya-sverige-usa-demografi-mangfald/ <= In Swedish

Indeed, past threads touching on the subject
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/u...station-what-happened.3486567/#post-127952983

Rape rates before the migrant crisis, non-whites still over represented:
http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/128564487/

"It emerged that in 2002, 85% of those sentenced to at least two years in prison for rape in Svea Hovrätt, a court of appeals, were foreign born or second-generation immigrants.

A 1996 report by the Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention reached the conclusion that immigrants from North Africa (Algeria, Libya, Morocco and Tunisia) were 23 times as likely to commit rape as Swedish men. The figures for men from Iraq, Bulgaria and Romania were, respectively, 20, 18 and 18. Men from the rest of Africa were 16 times more prone to commit rape; and men from Iran, Peru, Ecuador and Bolivia, 10 times as prone as Swedish men."

Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa.

Significantly, the report does not touch on the background of the rapists. One should, however, keep in mind that in statistics, second-generation immigrants are counted as Swedes.

In an astounding number of cases, the Swedish courts have demonstrated sympathy for the rapists, and have acquitted suspects who have claimed that the girl wanted to have sex with six, seven or eight men.

The internet radio station Granskning Sverige called the mainstream newspapers Aftonbladet and Expressen to ask why they had described the perpetrators as "Swedish men" when they actually were Somalis without Swedish citizenship. They were hugely offended when asked if they felt any responsibility to warn Swedish women to stay away from certain men. One journalist asked why that should be their responsibility.
https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/5195/sweden-rape

Being poor just doesn't cut it as an explanation for overrepresentation in crime statistics.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/w...ws-rape-threads.3499293/page-2#post-128575011

According to a study made by BRÅ (The Swedish National Council for Crime Prevention (Brottsförebyggande rådet - Brå) - an agency under the for research and development within the judicial system.) With an adjustment for socio-economy, the overrepresentation decreased from a factor of 2.5 to 2.1 (approximately 20%).

https://www.bra.se/download/18.cba8...bland_personer_fodda_sverige_och_utlandet.pdf <- There is an English summary at the end.

So being poor just doesn't cut it as an explanation for overrepresentation in crime statistics. When it comes to violent crimes and rape, certain groups are extremely overrepresented in the crime statistics while other immigrant groups are on the same level as ethnic Swedes or even lower.
* Immigrants from Africa are overrepresented in crimes up to 430%.

And these stats are considering data manipulation, hiding and censorship.

It’s not only Germany that covers up mass sex attacks by migrant men...
https://www.spectator.com.au/2016/0...ks-by-migrant-men-swedens-record-is-shameful/

I also said Sweden and neither are upfront about anything related to crime and immigration problems. Why would they be? It wouldn't be in their interest to contradict their policies, especially if they're seen as failing (over-representation in crimes, high unemployment).

Police officer charged with “racial agitation” for saying they under-report migrant crimes. Granted those are both Sweden but I do recall some from Germany if I could find them. Germany's Cologne attacks and how they downplayed it. Stockholm was famous for not only the sex attacks but police accused of playing down mass sexual assaults on teens and not doing anything and that was after Cologne.

Germany Must Come to Terms With Refugee Crime
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2018-01-03/germany-must-come-to-terms-with-refugee-crime

Anti-immigrant parties have long linked Muslim immigration to crime, but verifiable data to support their arguments have been scarce, not least because police services and statistical agencies have been reluctant to track this aspect of criminality so as not to increase tension in societies.

The state police -- in keeping with the unspoken taboo -- hadn't published such statistics

.

 

[Sano]

Your numbers are incorrect:

As of 2017, 24,1% of the Swedish citizens have a foreign background. Foreign background means born outside of Sweden or that you have two foreign born parents.
The source is: Statistics Sweden
– a government agency that brings official statistics to the public
https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/.../folkmangd-och-befolkningsforandringar-20172/

Another important measure is the percentage of people in the age group that can repopulate:

* As of 2016, 31,9% of the people between 0-44 years old were of a foreign background.

You are also cherry picking stats, the number of asylum seekers have declined but family immigration is increasing. You are also omitting a fact that in 2003, the government changed the definition of foreign background. A person born to a person from Sweden and a person from a foreign country are classified as of Swedish background, which in turn made a 500,000 people change category.

Be specific. What's wrong? Ethnicity, religion, something else? You qouted more than a few things. In regards to ethnicity, I sourced scb and official Swedish statistics. In your article:

"Vid utgången av 2017 var 1 064 041 utrikesfödda svenska medborgare folkbokförda i Sverige." translated for the people who don't read Swedish: "At the end of 2017, 1.064.041 foreign born citizens were registered in Sweden". Can you explain what this means?

If you look at the source I provided from sbc in the reference list: https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/...statistik--riket/folkmangd-efter-fodelseland/

You see that in 2017, "samtliga utrikesfodda", meaning again for the non Swedish readers: "All foreign born" was
1.877.050. Anyway, 1.877.050 / 10.120.242 * 100 is 18,5% foreign born. If you include second generation, per your article, it's 24,1% foreign background. So 75,9% ethnic Swedish by that definition. I was not aware of the distinction not being made because in Denmark we include second generation in our foreign born statistics. Thanks, I will edit the OP.

The Sweden numbers includes all ethnicites btw, and about 40% of foreign born are from Europe.

With that in mind, if you look at the excell again, you see that 207.886 are foreign born African, which is 2% of the population. If we add the same increase as the as a relative percentage, which is 24% as an average (24,1% is 24% more than 18,5%), then there's a 2,5% foreign background Africans (including second generation). If we add ALL The Middle East and related Asian countries, meaning: Afghanistan 43.991, Irak 140.830, Iran 74.096, Israel 2.680, Yemen 2.191, Pakistan 13.970, Palestine 7.365, Qatar 265, Syrien 172.258, Kuwait 3.314, United Arabi 2.913, Libanon, 27.487, Jordan 4.502 we get 481.360 foreign born. We get 4,7% of the population. Add in the second generation and it's 5,8%.

So African and Middle Eastern foreign born including second generation is 8,3% of the Swedish population.

I don't think you know what cherry picking means. Using the working definitions from in the last two decades is not cherry picking. All countries have slightly different ways to measure these things.

Yes familiy reunions matters. They will definitely increase in the next few years as a lag behind the Syria crisis. A war and crisis that was the biggest in our time btw. However, when looking at projections this matters more:

The number of asylum seekers are back to pre war states. That's important.

A publicly employed and left-leaning Swedish researcher named Tobias Hubinette states that:

In 2028:

33% of all children in Sweden will be born of a mother from a foreign country.
20% of all children in Sweden will be born of a mother that is a second generation immigrant or of mixed background.
30-33% of the people in the age span of 25-64 will be of foreign background.
20% of the people in the same age span will be second generation of immigrants.

https://tobiashubinette.wordpress.com/2018/04/28/det-nya-sverige-usa-demografi-mangfald/ <= In Swedish

So? What's your point? That the demographics is changing? It is, no one has said otherwise.

This thread is about the muslims percentage in EU and projections. He doesn't cover that. You're conflating immigrants, foreign born and foreign background with muslims. You have to be specific. I'd like to see his sources. Not that I don't agree, I'd just like to see what he based his projections on, it's an interesting subject.

This thread was to show people saying that "Muslims are the majority in Europe or will be in a generation" is absolutely false.

 

[Sano]

Indeed, past threads touching on the subject
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/u...station-what-happened.3486567/#post-127952983

Rape rates before the migrant crisis, non-whites still over represented:
http://forums.sherdog.com/posts/128564487/


Being poor just doesn't cut it as an explanation for overrepresentation in crime statistics.
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/w...ws-rape-threads.3499293/page-2#post-128575011


And these stats are considering data manipulation, hiding and censorship.

Complete horseshit most of those. Only legitimate one is @Son of Jamin 's with the foreign born being overrepresentated in the crime stats, even adjusting for socioeconomic status and age, at about a 2,1 - 2,5 crimeindex. Which is a real issue.

 

[uppercutbus]

Complete horseshit most of those. Only legitimate one is @Son of Jamin 's with the foreign born being overrepresentated in the crime stats, even adjusting for socioeconomic status and age, at about a 2,1 - 2,5 crimeindex. Which is a real issue.

well you like to be detailed. Go through them and prove them wrong.

 

[Sano]

well you like to be detailed. Go through them and prove them wrong.

Like all the numbers I've gone through in this thread that you dismiss off hand and in the other thread about German crime rates, EVERYTHING from official statistics and everything laid out being as transparent as possible.

I have gone through the rape numbers in Sweden. That one I'll post later. Quick fact, rape convictions are down 21% from 2007 to 2016.

To believe this is true: "Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa."

Is so mindblowingly stupid just at face value.

 

[uppercutbus]

rape convictions are down 21% from 2007 to 2016.

Once again, it's just your own "research", you treat as gospel and no leftist sources (or otherwise) attack the links I post. Just your own "findings".

Violent crime for immigrants rises to astronomical levels in 2016:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-germany-rises-50-per-cent-new-figures-show/
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/23/germany-registers-surge-crimes-right-wing-radicals/

The crime rate among migrants in Germany rose by more than 50 per cent last year,

http://www.dw.com/en/german-study-links-increased-crime-rate-to-migrant-arrivals/a-42006484

More than 90 percent of the increase (not of total violent crimes) was said to be attributable to migrants.

 

[Sano]

Once again, it's just your own "research", you treat as gospel and no leftist sources (or otherwise) attack the links I post. Just your own "findings".

Violent crime for immigrants rises to astronomical levels in 2016:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/20...e-germany-rises-50-per-cent-new-figures-show/
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/23/germany-registers-surge-crimes-right-wing-radicals/


http://www.dw.com/en/german-study-links-increased-crime-rate-to-migrant-arrivals/a-42006484

How is it my own findings when I take every single number from official statistics and source them?

The reason why the total crime rates rose in Germany during 2015-2016 (it's now back down) was because this included "crimes against foreigners laws" meaning violations of asylum laws and anyone stopped in Germany would be registered in the crime statistics. This is public knowledge.

Total crime rate is the lowest in 30 years, although individual crimes vary: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ion-antisemitism-horst-seehofer-a8343226.html

An uptick in 10% violent crime from 2015-2016, during the height of the biggest refugee crisis in our time is far from astronomical. Consider this as well which was just after the qoute you put in from the article:

"The study's authors claimed that part of the increase was due to the fact that violent crimes committed by migrants were twice as likely to be reported compared to those committed by German nationals"

It's also still lower than it was 10 years ago AND it has come down again:

No, these are not my own stats. They are taken directly from the official German crime statistics:
https://www.bka.de/EN/CurrentInform...F431F1FBFA370D7D1EC5D005C63.live0611?nn=39580

You don't even read any of the things you post. You just gish gallop google searched articles (breitbart gtfo) and then hope something sticks. I have used hour and hours looking through all the figures. If you want an honest conversation why don't you actually read the crime reports and stats at the primary sources?

 

[Son of Jamin]

Be specific. What's wrong? Ethnicity, religion, something else? You qouted more than a few things. In regards to ethnicity, I sourced scb and official Swedish statistics. In your article:

"Vid utgången av 2017 var 1 064 041 utrikesfödda svenska medborgare folkbokförda i Sverige." translated for the people who don't read Swedish: "At the end of 2017, 1.064.041 foreign born citizens were registered in Sweden". Can you explain what this means?

It means that at the end of 2017, there were 1,064,041 Swedish citizens that were born in another country.

It basically boils down to what constitutes that you are of foreign background:

1) You are born outside of Sweden
2) You are born in Sweden to two parents from a foreign background.

If you look at the source I provided from sbc in the reference list: https://www.scb.se/hitta-statistik/...statistik--riket/folkmangd-efter-fodelseland/

You see that in 2017, "samtliga utrikesfodda", meaning again for the non Swedish readers: "All foreign born" was
1.877.050. Anyway, 1.877.050 / 10.120.242 * 100 is 18,5% foreign born. If you include second generation, per your article, it's 24,1% foreign background. So 75,9% ethnic Swedish by that definition. I was not aware of the distinction not being made because in Denmark we include second generation in our foreign born statistics. Thanks, I will edit the OP.

At a first glance, it would rightly mean that the population is 75,9% ethnic Swede but since they changed the definition back in 2003, that if one of your parents are Swedish, then you are of Swedish background, that number would be even lower if we are going strictly at this thread's headline "ethnicity". If you add third generation immigrants as well, then that number would decrease further.

The Sweden numbers includes all ethnicites btw, and about 40% of foreign born are from Europe.

With that in mind, if you look at the excell again, you see that 207.886 are foreign born African, which is 2% of the population. If we add the same increase as the as a relative percentage, which is 24% as an average (24,1% is 24% more than 18,5%), then there's a 2,5% foreign background Africans (including second generation). If we add ALL The Middle East and related Asian countries, meaning: Afghanistan 43.991, Irak 140.830, Iran 74.096, Israel 2.680, Yemen 2.191, Pakistan 13.970, Palestine 7.365, Qatar 265, Syrien 172.258, Kuwait 3.314, United Arabi 2.913, Libanon, 27.487, Jordan 4.502 we get 481.360 foreign born. We get 4,7% of the population. Add in the second generation and it's 5,8%. So African and Middle Eastern foreign born including second generation is 8,3% of the Swedish population.

I'm tired at work so I'm not really following your train of thought?

Do you mean the number of people from Muslim backgrounds?

I don't think you know what cherry picking means. Using the working definitions from in the last two decades is not cherry picking. All countries have slightly different ways to measure these things.

My point with "cherry picking" was that if someone omits the effects and numbers of family reunion to paint a picture that immigration is decreasing, it leaves out valuable information.

The official projection for family reunions:

2018 – 44.000
2019 – 55.000
2020 – 41.000
2021 – 41.000

Those numbers are historically record numbers. The socialists in Sweden closed the borders in the 90's because Sweden couldn't accommodate so many and at that time, it was around 30,000 people coming annualy due to the civil war in the former Yugoslavia.

Yes familiy reunions matters. They will definitely increase in the next few years as a lag behind the Syria crisis. A war and crisis that was the biggest in our time btw. However, when looking at projections this matters more:

The number of asylum seekers are back to pre war states. That's important.

Do you know what the official projections for immigration to Sweden are the coming years? According to the government, the Swedish population will increase with 800,000 people in the next 8 years. 80% of the increase is linked to immigration.

So? What's your point? That the demographics is changing? It is, no one has said otherwise.

This thread is about the muslims percentage in EU and projections. He doesn't cover that. You're conflating immigrants, foreign born, foreign background with muslims. I'd like to see his sources. Not that I don't agree, I'd just like to see what he based his projections on, it's an interesting subject.

Mainly this thread was to show people saying that "Muslims are the majority or will be in a generation" is absolutely false.

My initial point was that your "fact" that 81% of Sweden's population is ethnic Swede was wrong, which is a point you respectfully conceded.

I'm not conflating immigrants with Muslims, I didn't even write the word Muslim in my previous post.

 

[m25105]

Just out of curiousity @Sano , which poster whom I have on ignore, is giving you a headache? Don’t use the @ cause then I can’t see.

 

[uppercutbus]

How is it my own findings when I take every single number from official statistics and source them?

The reason why the total crime rates rose in Germany during 2015-2016 (it's now back down) was because this included "crimes against foreigners laws" meaning violations of asylum laws and anyone stopped in Germany would be registered in the crime statistics. This is public knowledge.

Total crime rate is the lowest in 30 years, although individual crimes vary: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ion-antisemitism-horst-seehofer-a8343226.html

An uptick in 10% violent crime from 2015-2016, during the height of the biggest refugee crisis in our time is far from astronomical. Consider this as well which was just after the qoute you put in from the article:

"The study's authors claimed that part of the increase was due to the fact that violent crimes committed by migrants were twice as likely to be reported compared to those committed by German nationals"

It's also still lower than it was 10 years ago AND it has come down again:

No, these are not my own stats. They are taken directly from the official German crime statistics:
https://www.bka.de/EN/CurrentInform...F431F1FBFA370D7D1EC5D005C63.live0611?nn=39580

You don't even read any of the things you post. You just gish gallop google searched articles (breitbart gtfo) and then hope something sticks. I have used hour and hours looking through all the figures. If you want an honest conversation why don't you actually read the crime reports and stats at the primary sources?

The total German crime was a thread before and doesn't mitigate migrant crimes and rape rates.

German crime goes down 10%
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/g...cking-new-development.3751993/#post-140576789
It's a strange way to spin a decrease crimes from a peak as "a good thing" to support open borders and refugee-welcome policies. It's like injuring yourself then applauding the healing process. "See crime went down - let more in".

It's not a victory for open border policies Migrants are still over represented. Also as links shown before, migrant rape rates were over represented in Sweden even before the migrant "crisis". You didn't debunk any of my links showing an increase of migrant crimes. "Crime stats go down over time so it's ok" is not a valid rebuttal or justification to let more in or to have such a policy in the first place.

 

[Sano]

It means that at the end of 2017, there were 1,064,041 Swedish citizens that were born in another country.

It basically boils down to what constitutes that you are of foreign background:

1) You are born outside of Sweden
2) You are born in Sweden to two parents from a foreign background.

At a first glance, it would rightly mean that the population is 75,9% ethnic Swede but since they changed the definition back in 2003, that if one of your parents are Swedish, then you are of Swedish background, that number would be even lower if we are going strictly at this thread's headline "ethnicity". If you add third generation immigrants as well, then that number would decrease further.

I'm tired at work so I'm not really following your train of thought?

Do you mean the number of people from Muslim backgrounds?

My point with "cherry picking" was that if someone omits the effects and numbers of family reunion to paint a picture that immigration is decreasing, it leaves out valuable information.

The official projection for family reunions:

2018 – 44.000
2019 – 55.000
2020 – 41.000
2021 – 41.000

Those numbers are historically record numbers. The socialists in Sweden closed the borders in the 90's because Sweden couldn't accommodate so many and at that time, it was around 30,000 people coming annualy due to the civil war in the former Yugoslavia.

Do you know what the official projections for immigration to Sweden are the coming years? According to the government, the Swedish population will increase with 800,000 people in the next 8 years. 80% of the increase is linked to immigration.

My initial point was that your "fact" that 81% of Sweden's population is ethnic Swede was wrong, which is a point you respectfully conceded.

I'm not conflating immigrants with Muslims, I didn't even write the word Muslim in my previous post.

That 1.064.041 number just doesn't add up to the 1.877.050 in the database, which is why I found it strange. Maybe 800.000 are not citizens, but still residents?

Well, if we're going down the road by one parent being an immigrant (can be alle countries btw, including scandinavia and EU) and then three generations down then the distinction between what being ethnic something or not is, completely disappears. I get your point, to an extent, but we have to work with the definitions set when trying to compare and contrast countries.

No, I wasn't talking about Muslims. The 8,3% with African and Middle Eastern foreign background (with 2nd generation included) is just what was calculated to be the population percentage. Muslims are about 6-8% of the population depending on the source.

I understand your point. Family reunions are important to consider, but I consider them part of the projections in the Pew Research data which was what the OP was based on. On your point to immigration being down, it is from the height of the crisis which was the most important because the projections were based on numbers at the height of the crisis. A reduction of 130.000 asylum seekers from 2015-2016 is larger than the increase in familiy reunions.

There is no doubt the population will change. How do you feel about that?

I know you didn't mention muslims, but I just found the way you formulated your objections a bit volatile in the context of this thread. I thank you for the correction though.

 

[Sano]

Just out of curiousity @Sano , which poster whom I have on ignore, is giving you a headache? Don’t use the @ cause then I can’t see.

uppercutbus

 

[uppercutbus]

How is it my own findings when I take every single number from official statistics and source them?

The links I provided were specific to migrant crimes. You then talked about total German crime, which I also addressed anyway since that topic is concluded elsewhere. You didn't debunk anything.

Consider also the links I posted about under reporting from Germany and Sweden. Your official stats don't show the reality, which is very likely to be even less flattering to foreigners.

 

[Son of Jamin]

That 1.064.041 number just doesn't add up to the 1.877.050 in the database, which is why I found it strange. Maybe 800.000 are not citizens, but still residents?

Good question, I have to check it out further.

Well, if we're going down the road by one parent being an immigrant (can be alle countries btw, including scandinavia and EU) and then three generations down then the distinction between what being ethnic something or not is, completely disappears. I get your point, to an extent, but we have to work with the definitions set when trying to compare and contrast countries.

Valid point!

No, I wasn't talking about Muslims. The 8,3% with African and Middle Eastern foreign background (with 2nd generation included) is just what was calculated to be the population percentage. Muslims are about 6-8% of the population depending on the source.

Ok, now I follow you!

I understand your point. Family reunions are important to consider, but I consider them part of the projections in the Pew Research data which was what the OP was based on. On your point to immigration being down, it is from the height of the crisis which was the most important because the projections were based on numbers at the height of the crisis. A reduction of 130.000 asylum seekers from 2015-2016 is larger than the increase in familiy reunions.

Absolutely but I try to put it in a historical context. 2014-2016 had of course the highest recorded numbers of asylum seekers but the numbers of granted citizenship and family reunions from then on are still historical highs.

There is no doubt the population will change. How do you feel about that?

I know you didn't mention muslims, but I just found the way you formulated your objections a bit volatile in the context of this thread. I thank you for the correction though.

For me, ethnicity is of no importance but it's all about creating a stable, safe and harmonious society. That rarely works with a influx of immigrants from cultures that are less tolerant so to speak or people that are lowly skilled that will forever be a financial burden for their new home country.

But at the end of the day, it's not immigrants fault. The majority of them just want a better life for themselves and their families and who can blame them for that?! The people at fault is the politicians and the media that is hiding the true cost for this multicultural experiment that began in 1975, both when it comes to the financial burden but also when it comes to crime and slowly dismantling the welfare state.

Some might also think that changing the demographics of a country so that the former majority will become a minority despite being the main breadwinner for all is immoral...I wouldn't personally object if the people that come creates wealth and a positive development but that is far from the case.

 

[Amerikuracana]

That's a small number to be raping 1500 underage girls.

I would guess the numbers are a little off, but I could be wrong. I'm sometimes wrong. A lot of major European cities (at least) look a lot closer to half and half.

We are more diverse that that here is SE Michigan, but this is a weird area, I guess. Nobody cares.

 

[Amerikuracana]

That 1.064.041 number just doesn't add up to the 1.877.050 in the database, which is why I found it strange. Maybe 800.000 are not citizens, but still residents?

Well, if we're going down the road by one parent being an immigrant (can be alle countries btw, including scandinavia and EU) and then three generations down then the distinction between what being ethnic something or not is, completely disappears. I get your point, to an extent, but we have to work with the definitions set when trying to compare and contrast countries.

No, I wasn't talking about Muslims. The 8,3% with African and Middle Eastern foreign background (with 2nd generation included) is just what was calculated to be the population percentage. Muslims are about 6-8% of the population depending on the source.

I understand your point. Family reunions are important to consider, but I consider them part of the projections in the Pew Research data which was what the OP was based on. On your point to immigration being down, it is from the height of the crisis which was the most important because the projections were based on numbers at the height of the crisis. A reduction of 130.000 asylum seekers from 2015-2016 is larger than the increase in familiy reunions.

There is no doubt the population will change. How do you feel about that?

I know you didn't mention muslims, but I just found the way you formulated your objections a bit volatile in the context of this thread. I thank you for the correction though.

Do America and Europe use commas and periods in the opposite, regarding math?

I see "75,9%, for a total of 1.437.391 etc... Seems confusing lol.

 

[Sano]

The total German crime was a thread before and doesn't mitigate migrant crimes and rape rates.

German crime goes down 10%
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/g...cking-new-development.3751993/#post-140576789
It's a strange way to spin a decrease crimes from a peak as "a good thing" to support open borders and refugee-welcome policies. It's like injuring yourself then applauding the healing process. "See crime went down - let more in".

It's not a victory for open border policies Migrants are still over represented. Also as links shown before, migrant rape rates were over represented in Sweden even before the migrant "crisis". You didn't debunk any of my links showing an increase of migrant crimes. "Crime stats go down over time so it's ok" is not a valid rebuttal or justification to let more in or to have such a policy in the first place.

You're a master at not answering questions. Through our conversations I've asked you many while you completely derail, google search, post claim that is not true or out of context, and so on. FINALLY now I've got you dragged down to at least talking within the realms of reality.

Yes, immigrants as one group are overrepresented in the crime stats by about a 2 - 2,5 crime index across the board. This varies from country to country and group to group. Yes crimes are down, including in those demographics, resulting in all time low crime rates in most places. This is our starting point for a real conversation, not "EUROPE IS INVADED BY MUSLIM RAPIST WHO AND WHITES WILL BE GONE WITHIN A GENERATION". That's hyperbolic fear mongering, I want to deal with reality. So the question is, where do we go from here.

To that end, I would like to ask you the following questions and hope you will answer this time.

1. What exactly do you mean when you say open borders?

2. Do you believe this is true:

"Forty years after the Swedish parliament unanimously decided to change the formerly homogenous Sweden into a multicultural country, violent crime has increased by 300% and rapes by 1,472%. Sweden is now number two on the list of rape countries, surpassed only by Lesotho in Southern Africa."
?

3. Why do you not read primary sources and reports?

 

[Sano]

Good question, I have to check it out further.

Valid point!

Ok, now I follow you!

Absolutely but I try to put it in a historical context. 2014-2016 had of course the highest recorded numbers of asylum seekers but the numbers of granted citizenship and family reunions from then on are still historical highs.

For me, ethnicity is of no importance but it's all about creating a stable, safe and harmonious society. That rarely works with a influx of immigrants from cultures that are less tolerant so to speak or people that are lowly skilled that will forever be a financial burden for their new home country.

But at the end of the day, it's not immigrants fault. The majority of them just want a better life for themselves and their families and who can blame them for that?! The people at fault is the politicians and the media that is hiding the true cost for this multicultural experiment that began in 1975, both when it comes to the financial burden but also when it comes to crime and slowly dismantling the welfare state.

Some might also think that changing the demographics of a country so that the former majority will become a minority despite being the main breadwinner for all is immoral...I wouldn't personally object if the people that come creates wealth and a positive development but that is far from the case.

I agree with you on many points. The side that says that "there's no problem at all and everything is rosy" are deluding themselves, the other side (represented here on the WR) that say "Europe is rampant with muslims who are terorrist rapist and murderes" are also delusional. The truth lies somewhere in the middle, but the reason why I argue against the misinformation here is because it is very dangerous. It fosters extremism, demonising entire ethnicities and making them sub-human. That is directly taken out of the fanatics 101 playbook, and the results we've seen through history. Islamic fanatics use it, Neo-nazis use it, facists use it.

I'd like to point out, that if this forum was filled with completely non-critical pro islam people, hardcore new wave feminists and "cultural appropriation" people I would argue with them as well.

There is no doubt that the immigration policies needed tightening up, as have been done, and the integration policies needs to be looked at. Here in Denmark, we see that more and more non-western immigrants are getting an education, crime rates are falling quite drasticly in those demographics and there is a lot of positive development. We know that what drives crime up is 1) lack of education, 2) poverty, 3) unemployment 4) sex (being male), 5) age (being young) and 6) social relations and network.

If we put effort into reforming ghetto housing, meaning not putting everyone in the same place. If we further our social youth initatives as preventive measures (which we've done here which is partly why the crime rates are dropping), because we know that criminal prevention is much more successful than punitive. If we increase the access to education and have greater willingness to employ and integrate non-western immigrants we can lower the crime and create a more cohesive society.

At the same time, we need to keep border policies tight and sensible, while still allowing our UN mandated asylum seekers and apply with our human rights constitution. That is what makes us great. We have to remember, that we are living in some of the greatest countries in the world up here, and while we have problems, they pale in comparison to most societies. Scandinavian values are strong, and we need to be pragmatic to keep them strong. Not go fullblown xenophobic, neither be oblivious to the realities and put our heads in the sand.

These are not radical suggestions, and they are not more costly.

That's a small number to be raping 1500 underage girls.

I would guess the numbers are a little off, but I could be wrong. I'm sometimes wrong. A lot of major European cities (at least) look a lot closer to half and half.

We are more diverse that that here is SE Michigan, but this is a weird area, I guess. Nobody cares.

Do America and Europe use commas and periods in the opposite, regarding math?

I see "75,9%, for a total of 1.437.391 etc... Seems confusing lol.

Where did you get those rape numbers? There was a total of 843 rape, including attempted rape, convictions in Sweden in the last 5 years. 337 of those involved African/Asian/Middle Eastern perpetrators. I'll go through the rape numbers later this weekend. Frankly I'm getting a little stressed looking going through all these numbers so I might take a break for a while after.

I was taught in school that commas was only for decimals, don't know if that's the case everywhere. Clears up confusion for me actually lol.

 

[Rygu]

At least once a week I wake up and give thanks to both the Atlantic and Pacific ocean for at the very minimum delaying Canada from falling victim to mass migration. We just need to remove Trudeau, even if it's for a more based and level headed Liberal PM. This far-left bullshit based on virtue signaling and muh feels hasn't done a single good thing for the developed world in many decades.