Media Dustin Poirier: I favor Gaethje. Chandler is going to have a hard time getting him down

[rjmbrd]

one of the best penn moments ever was after getting shit kicked outta him in the second he met nick right in the middle to start the third and dug in that nasty ass uppercut, he was a dog

Penn is one of my favorite fighters of all time. He gets a lot of flack around here for bad life choices (and fair enough on many of them) but in his prime, he was one of the most complete fighters while being athletically gifted.

He was well on the other side of his peak when fighting Nick, and was lucky it was only a 3 round fight. He left with a mutilated face and brain trauma.

 

[rjmbrd]

Because there was a big difference in that fight compared to the fights after. It wasn't just physical damage but probably mental damage as in he fought differently after and changed his whole style to a safety first approach and was more worried about not receiving damage and was overly focused on defense with little to no offense in his fights after that. It was a mentality switch from the Gaethje fight, plus the damage he took in the fight as well.

Yes fighters look old out of nowhere, but when there's significant damage taken right before the sudden shift, it deals more with the damage from that fight. The was the first fight Tony got stopped by a TKO as well. Tony changed his whole game after that fight, so to me that fight had a big effect on him. He stopped moving forward and stopped being offensive. He tried to become a counter striker and spends most of the fight on defense and back peddling now to reset. He tries and avoids exchanges as well. So I attribute the changes more to the Gaethje fight compared to just growing old overnight. Before the Gaethje fight he was still highly regarded.

Buddy, Tony Ferguson made his living taking absurd amounts of punishment. We are talking beaten up with brain damage over and over again. It was literally his "thing."

Eventually, he can't take the hits anymore. You could see it with JG and you could see it with his subsequent two fights. He physically LOOKS old. So now you are making a argument that a decade of punishment and aging out of the system isn't his primary downfall, its just this one specific fight...

Frankly its an immature way of taking it out of context.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

Penn was shot before that.

Look at his first fight with Edgar and his second. Looks like a ghost of the guy. He had no business fighting Nick, they just didn't know what to do with him after he couldn't be an elite lightweight.

You keep attributing 'beatings' even though its a widely accepted fact that athletes ... lose their atheism. If you are an elite running back in the NFL, you age out by 30. Losing something like 5-10% of your athletic edge is the difference from being elite to just another guy.

Penn wasn't shot before Nick--he just always struggled with physical discipline, and Edgar 2 was a clear case of Penn being lazy in camp after falling out with his physical trainer. Post Diaz, Penn was a shadow of his former self on every level.

Yes, athletes do decline with age, but citing football players reinforces my point, not yours, since they take even more head trauma than MMA fighters do.

You're seriously downplaying how severe beatings like Gaethje/Ferg and TJ/Barrao cauae serious cognitive decline and affect fighters.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Buddy, Tony Ferguson made his living taking absurd amounts of punishment. We are talking beaten up with brain damage over and over again. It was literally his "thing."

Eventually, he can't take the hits anymore. You could see it with JG and you could see it with his subsequent two fights. He physically LOOKS old. So now you are making a argument that a decade of punishment and aging out of the system isn't his primary downfall, its just this one specific fight...

Frankly its an immature way of taking it out of context.

Yes eventually you hit your limit, and that was with Gaethje. If you think the damage he took in the fight didn't attribute to his decline or sudden change in fighting style, you should rethink that a bit. That type of damage will definitely affect you. Ferguson never got KO or TKO before but in this fight he was taking steps back shaking his head. He took a a lot of damage in that fight. To me that has more to do with it than his age. Like people say it's about the miles and not really the age of the fighter. The Gaethje fight added a lot miles to Ferguson.

 

[rjmbrd]

Penn wasn't shot before Nick--he just always struggled with physical discipline, and Edgar 2 was a clear case of Penn being lazy in camp after falling out with his physical trainer. Post Diaz, Penn was a shadow of his former self on every level.

source: Trust me bro

Yes, athletes do decline with age

You think? I wonder how being 37 years old at lightweight affected Tony... probably not much. Probably was peak condition, and JG stole him. This is so immature its hilarious.

 

[rjmbrd]

Yes eventually you hit your limit, and that was with Gaethje.

Lets do a thought experiment. At 37 years old with 29 pro fights (well over 30 including amateur and TUF) how many more fights and years do you think Tony would remain an elite lightweight if he didn't fight JG?

38? 39?

List off for me the elite lightweights nearing 40 years old in the UFC (if you are unaware, there are currently ~90 lightweights under contract)

This is so stupid I honestly can't believe I'm typing it out.

 

[Jawth]

Poirer was getting one-shot KO'd by Michael Johnson, who has a LOOSING UFC record, when Chandler was losing to Brooks.

Styles make fights. This is common sense and should not need to be explained. Do you think the Korean Zombie is the best grappler in the world because he tapped Poierer once upon a time?



Do Bronx is on a pretty ridiculous, near historic win streak for the division right now.

Do the same with Poirer, he can get tapped by Zombie or KO'd by Johnson like its nothing. This isn't how MMA works in context.




Chandler can go into deep water with Alvarez in a dog fight and tap him in championship rounds. JG goes in a dogfight with Alvarez and gets knocked TF out. You are terrible at this.

This fight is a pick-em for me. I haven't picked Chandler.

I didnt say Chandler losing to Oliviera is a blemish, Oliviera is a great fighter. I am just saying regarding durability and the chance to withstand power shots from their opponent, yes it is much more meaningful than Gaethje going down after absorbing massive punishments in the fights you keep bringing up.

Waving a fight off yourself after getting rocked by Will Brooks will leads to questions about your chin in a way being knocked out in a back and forth war with power hitters doesn't.

You keep bringing up general MMAth (including fighters not even in this matchup) to argue Chandler's overall talent level.

I am not disputing that he is a good fighter or that ten years ago he could go to war with Eddie and win, I saw both of their fights live.

I am saying he is going to get KOed early by Gaethje based on the my belief he cannot take the punches (or leg kicks for that matter) that Justin will dish out. I will bump this thread when it happens.

 

[rjmbrd]

I didnt say Chandler losing to Oliviera is a blemish, Oliviera is a great fighter. I am just saying regarding durability and the chance to withstand power shots from their opponent, yes it is much more meaningful than Gaethje going down after absorbing massive punishments in the fights you keep bringing up.

Waving a fight off yourself after getting rocked by Will Brooks will leads to questions about your chin in a way being knocked out in a back and forth war with power hitters doesn't.

You keep bringing up general MMAth (including fighters not even in this matchup) to argue Chandler's overall talent level.

I am not disputing that he is a good fighter or that ten years ago he could go to war with Eddie and win, I saw both of their fights live.

I am saying he is going to get KOed early by Gaethje based on the my belief he cannot take the punches (or leg kicks for that matter) that Justin will dish out. I will bump this thread when it happens.

Go back and read my initial post. I think the intent and concepts can get lost in the replies. I said this fight is a pick-em, and that Chandler is the better MMA grappler, but JG has more durability. Both have KO power.

Exactly what about that is controversial?

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Lets do a thought experiment. At 37 years old with 29 pro fights (well over 30 including amateur and TUF) how many more fights and years do you think Tony would remain an elite lightweight if he didn't fight JG?

38? 39?

List off for me the elite lightweights nearing 40 years old in the UFC (if you are unaware, there are currently ~90 lightweights under contract)

This is so stupid I honestly can't believe I'm typing it out.

There's no real answer to that, every person is different. There are fighters older than that who are still competing at a high level and also world champions in other combat sports.

If age was a deciding factor for anything there wouldn't be a huge variance in age and accomplishments. Age doesn't guarantee a win or a loss. Skills and physical ability do. Yes fighters decline with age, but everyone has a different decline age and some people can change up their fighting style to match their current physicality. So there are a lot of variables.

Ferguson before Gaethje fight was still highly ranked and no signs of slowing down. It was only after the Gaethje damage that we saw a different fighter. So contribute it more to the damage in the Gaethje fight. Both physically and his mental confidence, he hasn't fought the same since that fight and he actively tries to avoid taking anymore damage in his fights. It seems to be the focus in his fights instead of trying to win. So that isn't as much as an age thing, as a mental thing. The Gaethje fight is still in the back of his mind and he fights trying to avoid what happened in that fight in all his recent fights.

I think he needed more time off to recover physically and mentally. He took fights too early in my opinion and hasn't mentally recovered yet. He didn't get KO but I see it similar to fighters fighting too soon and they haven't fully recovered from a KO loss mentally. They tend to fight scared of being knocked out again. Like Conor currently.

 

[rjmbrd]

There's no real answer to that, every person is different. .

Bullshit.

We're now playing a weird game called 'stupid or liar?' and you don't appear stupid. We can literally average out when fighters in lower weight divisions begin to lose, you can look at graphs of it.

There is no version of reality where guys nearing 40 populate the top 10 of UFC lightweight divisions. There are 90 guys currently under contract at 155lbs. Tony aged out, later then most, but the same as everyone does.

 

[FIghtxIQ]

Bullshit.

We're now playing a weird game called 'stupid or liar?' and you don't appear stupid. We can literally average out when fighters in lower weight divisions begin to lose, you can look at graphs of it.

There is no version of reality where guys nearing 40 populate the top 10 of UFC lightweight divisions. There are 90 guys currently under contract at 155lbs. Tony aged out, later then most, but the same as everyone does.

How is it bullshit when it's facts. MMA is a new sport. Look at boxing for a better example. They have more years and more fighters for a longer period of time. If you haven't noticed the age of champions in mma have been increasing and most champions are older than they were decades before.

So you can have your assumptions, I'll focus on the actual facts.

 

[rjmbrd]

How is it bullshit when it's facts. MMA is a new sport. Look at boxing for a better example. They have more years and more fighters for a longer period of time. If you haven't noticed the age of champions in mma have been increasing and most champions are older than they were decades before.

So you can have your assumptions, I'll focus on the actual facts.

You can lookup the data and look at a graph of when on average UFC lightweights begin to lose. This is not controversial and its such common sense stuff it should not need to be typed out.

Obviously Tony wasn't going to be a 38 year old elite lightweight, because they do not exist. There are 90 guys under UFC contract at 155lbs... what is the average age? What is the average age of the top 10 lightweights?

Use some common sense.

 

[PunchyMcSplodo]

source: Trust me bro



You think? I wonder how being 37 years old at lightweight affected Tony... probably not much. Probably was peak condition, and JG stole him. This is so immature its hilarious.

LOL, your "source: trust me" line is pathetic. We were both discussing our subjective perception of BJ's decline. Don't fall back on that bullshit because you want to pretend absorbing 130+ headstrikes in 2 rounds didn't have an effect on his cognitive abilities going forward.

The same goes for your stupid strawman afterward. No one is saying being 37 was Tony's peak physical condition. OTOH, pretending Tony suddenly physically deteriorated because he was 37 years old is retarded*. Justin's unpecedented (for Tony) beating had a lot to do with Tony's diminished state going forward.

*Frankie did much better against Holloway at 37 than most FWs lately, just as one example.

 

[Poirierfan]

Poirer went legit life and death with Hooker in a razor thin decision.

Chandler cartoon knocked out Hooker in the first round after treating him like his 12 year old little cousin.

Why in the world would Chandler need to get anybody down to win? He has spectacular KO power. He nearly put away the current champ too. Aside from getting smashed by Khabib, the two best guys JG fought were Poirer and Alvarez. The both knocked him out in dog fights.

Poirier was coming off major hip surgery and had been laid up for months before the Hooker fight.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

Yup, let me educate you a little more;

-Khabib's submission average: 0.8
-Chandler's submission average: 1.6

Submissions were never Khabib's forte (submission artist like Oliveira has 2.7 submission average) , Khabib's forte is mauling. Closest to Oliveira's submission average number is Chandler's, not Khabib's. Chandler usually subs his opponents.

Islam is more defensive and more technical than Khabib, and likes to sub his opponents even more than Khabib, yet his submission average is only 0.2 better than Khabib's. (1.0 submission average for Islam).

Yet Khabib quickly subbed Gaethje instead of his usual mauling. If Chandler gets Gaethje down, it will be over.

The question is, can Chandler take Gaethje down or not.

Chandler has %41 TD accuracy, which is not bad, but not as good as Khabib's either, we will see.

Lmao you don’t even understand Khabib even though you’re a fanboy of his. Khabib continued to get better, and by the time he fought Gaethje, he was a finisher. His last 3 fights were the toughest of his career and he finished them all with subs.

 

[Peli]

Lmao you don’t even understand Khabib even though you’re a fanboy of his. Khabib continued to get better, and by the time he fought Gaethje, he was a finisher. His last 3 fights were the toughest of his career and he finished them all with subs.

That's why I made that Khabib Tales thread. His team and Khabib himself to some degree put out some half-truths. I believe Khabib lloved mauling guys, but Khabib wasn't as good as a finisher back then. He later said in an interview that he was getting better at finishing guys, that's why the UFC if paying him more. I forgot what interview. I also recall him saying something about his ground game being even more better and something about what he leaned, he could have finished guys back then.

My memory might be fuzzy, so don't quote me 100% but I remember that.

I also don't think Chandler is that good at submissions. He's ok. He's not great. I wouldn't say he's better than Poirier to submit him. Chandler has 2 primary submissions, he's not going to transistion from armbar to a triangle or armbar into an bicep slicer. Justin can train defense on those two chokes, that Chandler has done in his world.

 

[rjmbrd]

LOL, your "source: trust me" line is pathetic. We were both discussing our subjective perception of BJ's decline. Don't fall back on that bullshit because you want to pretend absorbing 130+ headstrikes in 2 rounds didn't have an effect on his cognitive abilities going forward.

The same goes for your stupid strawman afterward. No one is saying being 37 was Tony's peak physical condition. OTOH, pretending Tony suddenly physically deteriorated because he was 37 years old is retarded*. Justin's unpecedented (for Tony) beating had a lot to do with Tony's diminished state going forward.

*Frankie did much better against Holloway at 37 than most FWs lately, just as one example.

Ok

 

[Tevfik1907]

Lmao you don’t even understand Khabib even though you’re a fanboy of his. Khabib continued to get better, and by the time he fought Gaethje, he was a finisher. His last 3 fights were the toughest of his career and he finished them all with subs.

It looks like you are a bigger Khabib fanboy than I am to claim this. Khabib was already seen as no.1 LW in 2015, even Conor saying Khabib will win the LW belt in 2015.

Even if he did get better, he was still not a submission artist like Oliveira. Chandler's and Khabib's submissions are very comparable. The numbers are there; 1.6 average for Chandler, 0.8 average for Khabib.

The difference is, Khabib is a better wrestler and he mauls people far better than Chandler can, he has far better striking defense, speed, stamina, cardio, chin, takedowns and takedown speed etc etc.

The only things that you can compare Chandler to Khabib is their submission wins and their offensive striking. Chandler has clearly better submission average than Khabib, even then I still say they are ''comparable'' not saying Chandler is better despite Chandler having far better numbers.

And we've seen how easily Khabib subbed Gaethje. Like it or not, if Chandler takes Gaethje down, Gaethje will get subbed. The only thing Gaethje can do is stuffing Chandler's takedowns, that's it. If it goes to ground, it's over.

 

[SKITZADACTYL]

Poirer went legit life and death with Hooker in a razor thin decision.

Chandler cartoon knocked out Hooker in the first round after treating him like his 12 year old little cousin.

Why in the world would Chandler need to get anybody down to win? He has spectacular KO power. He nearly put away the current champ too. Aside from getting smashed by Khabib, the two best guys JG fought were Poirer and Alvarez. The both knocked him out in dog fights.

kids still using MMAth lmao, also basically NOTHING happened before chandler finished hooker.


jesus.

 

[Orochimaru 大蛇丸]

That's why I made that Khabib Tales thread. His team and Khabib himself to some degree put out some half-truths. I believe Khabib lloved mauling guys, but Khabib wasn't as good as a finisher back then. He later said in an interview that he was getting better at finishing guys, that's why the UFC if paying him more. I forgot what interview. I also recall him saying something about his ground game being even more better and something about what he leaned, he could have finished guys back then.

My memory might be fuzzy, so don't quote me 100% but I remember that.

I also don't think Chandler is that good at submissions. He's ok. He's not great. I wouldn't say he's better than Poirier to submit him. Chandler has 2 primary submissions, he's not going to transistion from armbar to a triangle or armbar into an bicep slicer. Justin can train defense on those two chokes, that Chandler has done in his world.

People don’t understand how good you have to be to submit ANYONE in the top 5 of any weight class below 205. It almost never happens unless the guy is an elite BJJ player that could hang with pro’s, and EVEN THEN they have a hard time finishing them. Garry Tonon has some of the best submissions skills of all time and hasn’t been able to finish multiple unknown cans. I probably shouldn’t just call people dumb, but when people talk about submissions in MMA, they just don’t get it lol. Same dudes who thought Poirier had a chance to finish that guillotine against Khabib.

And people hear Gaethje say he doesn’t train BJJ and take it literally lol, as if he has never defended a sub in his life.