Does anyone else think this wasnt some huge robbery

You're picking and choosing what you want to respond to. From my original post:

"It was a close fight. But all thing being equal, my tiebreaker is GGG moving forward, throwing more punches, setting the pace of the fight and beating up Canelo's arms and shoulders when he missed."


GGG landed significantly more punches. Canelo landed the sharper punches. The FOUR factors - not just one - listed above are why I gave the tiebreaker to the man WHO LANDED 40 MORE PUNCHES. It's not that hard to understand. Try quoting and/or rebuttling based on context, not just the 9 words you chose to give your attention to.

I gave it to Triple G based on my own scoring. So did a shit ton of analysts and former fighters. You gave it to Canelo. So did a few fighters and analysts. I'm perfectly content with my opinion, especially when factoring in the overwhelming majority that agrees with me. Call it another "tiebreaker" if you will.

It's almost as if always favoring the counter-puncher is the popular thing to do for self-proclaimed "hardcore fans". Get over yourself. A lot of people far more qualified than you, me, and anybody else on this board had GGG winning the fight.

It was a close fight. Canelo landed cleaner shots. GGG landed almost 50 more. Canelo landed a couple more power shots. GGG landed far more jabs.

That makes for a tough fight to judge. Sometimes you have to look at the other factors. For me, GGG controlled the pace and location of the fight. In my opinion, Canelo had long stretches of inactivity against the ropes.

I do not value arm/shoulder punches over connected shots. I simply value them over 40 second bouts of inactivity while standing against the ropes your opponents forced you to retreat into.

Is this really that difficult? I know you'll pick some random one-liner from my posts instead of talking about the discussion as a whole, but I think I've explained myself very clearly.

Also, I clearly stated that I scored this fight round for round by myself. I simply pointed out that others more qualified than me or you mostly agreed with MY SCORE CARD.

Seriously, it's a bit pathetic if you racked up 45,000 posts by dancing around actual discussions and picking and choosing which one-liners you want to pick apart. But it's your life, do what you want with it.
 
There is no law that tells you what is worth more in boxing. It's all very subjective. I value quality. Significant punches. Not quantity. But someone else might value quantity. They see a guy throwing a lot of punches and they think that guy won, even though those punches didn't land clean or had very little behind them. I gave the fight to Canelo because he landed more significant punches. He landed a lot of shit that made me think "that shit must hurt as fuck". GGG didn't do that for me. Very active, pushing forward all the time, volume, volume, volume, but very few truly impressive shots landed.

I respect your opinion and completely understand how you and others came to the conclusion. I just saw it differently, as did others.
 
Not a blemish on eithers record.

I mean hell, I dont think folks would look down on either in the grand scheme of things even with an outright clear loss. Theyre both top tier fighters.
For the record, I didn't say it was a blemish. I said Golovkins comments about Canelo not being a real mexican fighter stem from his embarrassment at not being the winner for the first time in his pro career.
 
It was a close fight. Canelo landed cleaner shots. GGG landed almost 50 more. Canelo landed a couple more power shots. GGG landed far more jabs.

That makes for a tough fight to judge. Sometimes you have to look at the other factors. For me, GGG controlled the pace and location of the fight. In my opinion, Canelo had long stretches of inactivity against the ropes.

I do not value arm/shoulder punches over connected shots. I simply value them over 40 second bouts of inactivity while standing against the ropes your opponents forced you to retreat into.

Is this really that difficult? I know you'll pick some random one-liner from my posts instead of talking about the discussion as a whole, but I think I've explained myself very clearly.

Also, I clearly stated that I scored this fight round for round by myself. I simply pointed out that others more qualified than me or you mostly agreed with MY SCORE CARD.

Seriously, it's a bit pathetic if you racked up 45,000 posts by dancing around actual discussions and picking and choosing which one-liners you want to pick apart. But it's your life, do what you want with it.
You seem to be taking this whole thing really personally.
 
For the record, I didn't say it was a blemish. I said Golovkins comments about Canelo not being a real mexican fighter stem from his embarrassment at not being the winner for the first time in his pro career.

His comments have everything to do with what Canelo claimed he'd do in there leading up to the fight, echoed by his coach Abel Sanchez (a Mexican-American). Why would he be embarrassed by a decision that was a DRAW which 80% of the fans & media around the world believe GGG should've won in the first place?
 
What it means is that I don't depend on press row, Teddy Atlas or Antonio Tarver to tell me who won a fight. You didn't disagree with me, you told me some famous names that disagreed with me. Do I win if I name a couple of famous fighters who thought Canelo won?

Good point. I waited until all of the other scores came in to figure out who won.

It's either that, or I filled out a scorecard as I watched the fight and it happened to compare favorably to actual fighters and analysts who are well respected within the boxing community.

I'm aware a couple of famous fighters thought that Canelo won the fight. Amazingly, they're all either Latino or Golden Boy employees. Shocking, I know.

I'm sure that just like Byrd, the majority of people on this board knew how you'd score the fight before it happened. GGG could have landed a hook 20 seconds in that ended Canelo's career and you'd tell us how in the previous 19 seconds Alvarez was clearly controlling the pace, setting up his counter punches, and made Gennady look bad.
 
Good point. I waited until all of the other scores came in to figure out who won.

It's either that, or I filled out a scorecard as I watched the fight and it happened to compare favorably to actual fighters and analysts who are well respected within the boxing community.

I'm aware a couple of famous fighters thought that Canelo won the fight. Amazingly, they're all either Latino or Golden Boy employees. Shocking, I know.

I'm sure that just like Byrd, the majority of people on this board knew how you'd score the fight before it happened. GGG could have landed a hook 20 seconds in that ended Canelo's career and you'd tell us how in the previous 19 seconds Alvarez was clearly controlling the pace, setting up his counter punches, and made Gennady look bad.

I found a total of 4 former fighters out of a large list that was posted to Bad Left Hook who scored it for Canelo. Two of them are Golden Boy execs as you said (Oscar & B-Hop). Canelo just beat Chávez Jr. fight before last and then there's Morales (Mexican). Here are their scores.

Oscar De La Hoya → 115-113 Canelo
Bernard Hopkins → 115-113 Canelo
Érik Morales → 116-112 Canelo
Julio César Chávez Sr. → 116:112 Canelo
 
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I had it 114-114 my first time through. After re-watching I have it in Canelo's favor. The cleaner, more effective punches were his all night long imo. I value this over constant pressure with not much landing. I had it 116-112 Canelo this time.
 
I really believed your theory, and then I checked the facts.



Floyd vs Maidana (1st)

Floyd had 52 jabs
Maidana had 36 jabs

Floyd had 178 power punches
Maidana had 185 power punches

Floyd had 230 total punches
Maidana had 221 total punches

In conclusion, Floyd had 16 more jabs than Maidana, and Maidana had 7 more

I give very little credence to punch stats because it's from a random person clicking a button, so there's a fair probability of a myriad of issues. But still, iif you want to be totally mechanical about it, then yes, Floyd won. But fights would really suck wouldn't they if this is how decisions are rendered? Not to mention that so much detail regarding the actual fight is lost in the numbers.

Is a jab equivalent to a body shot? How many jabs is equal to one power shot? One? I am not saying that the figures to not matter, but if we're going to determine outcomes solely base on punches, then I'd be much more comfortable with alot more data. Suppose it's found that Maidana struck floyd with an average of 2000N of force, and Mayweather with 1000N, how will you think about the fight then?

Also, it would it is inherently flawed for judges to look at statistics to determine who he thought won the round but I dont want to get into that.
 
This is such a lame comparison. If you think Pac & Maidaina were dictating the pace and where the fight was happening in the ring, then youre a complete fool.
I think pac and maidana's attack was analogous to GGG's and therefore must have won their fights if GGG won.

I'm not a complete fool.
 
I do not value arm/shoulder punches over connected shots. I simply value them over 40 second bouts of inactivity while standing against the ropes your opponents forced you to retreat into.

Why? Defense is an actual scoring criteria.
 
I think pac and maidana's attack was analogous to GGG's and therefore must have won their fights if GGG won.

I'm not a complete fool.
You're right that boxrec sucks, and unless they get put in front of those punch bag machines you can't measure the force. I don't see the similarities in maidana and especially pacquiaos attack vs Floyd against golovkin vs canelo. What makes you think otherwise?

And ignore that dude, he's just looking for arguments.
 
I had it 114-114 my first time through. After re-watching I have it in Canelo's favor. The cleaner, more effective punches were his all night long imo. I value this over constant pressure with not much landing. I had it 116-112 Canelo this time.

Canelo's own promoters at Golden Boy (Oscar & Hopkins) had it 115-113 Canelo. You somehow managed to score it wider for Canelo than they did. I'm impressed.
 
You're right that boxrec sucks, and unless they get put in front of those punch bag machines you can't measure the force. I don't see the similarities in maidana and especially pacquiaos attack vs Floyd against golovkin vs canelo. What makes you think otherwise?

And ignore that dude, he's just looking for arguments.
I just need to preface by saying that the views that I'm about to express are very unconventional, not official criterion, and clearly no one on sherdog agrees with. I’ll try to keep it short.

I value aggression and I also value counter punching, both very highly. But I've determined that, to me, outside of what any judge or official rules say, aggression should be slightly more valuable.

The reason being, it is a fight, and it takes two to fight. It is acceptable to be defensive, but to be credited as having clearly won a particular round, the defensive party should be very obviously more effective beyond any doubt than his more aggressive opponent.

If we do not reward aggression, fighters are incentivized to conserve and simply do as little work as possible, and fighters who push forward are punished for being proactive and the sport will not have as entertaining fights as it should have at the top level.

In Maidana vs Mayweather, Maidana was very very clearly, extremely aggressive, throwing magnitudes more punches than Mayweather, bombarding Mayweather in the head, neck, groin, back..wherever he could touch him. Meanwhile, Mayweather would throw a shot or two and land not as clean as needed to justify winning the whole round. But he won them anyways.

Similar to Mayweather, Canelo was being walked down for significant portions of the fight. But unlike Mayweather, Canelo was throwing back a lot more and oftentimes landing very significant, clean shots (regardless of whether it hurt GGG or not). To me, Canelo’s output combined with a high number of clean strikes warranted him winning 6 rounds. For rounds where both styles were effective, I don’t like to arbitrarily assign a winner simply because it’s inaccurate and gives rise to biased scorecards. There were 3 such rounds for me, and 3 where I thought GGG’s aggression was more effective than Canelo’s counterattack. Thus, to me Canelo won 6-3-3 with a possible draw if I were to arbitrarily assign close rounds to GGG. And an Adelaide Byrd esque 9-3 Canelo scorecard if I liked Canelo more.

For the record, I had a lot of money on Mayweather when he fought Maidana, and was pretty nervous after 12. I don’t see how Floyd obviously won like how everyone sees it these days.
----------------------
It's like in mma, where folks feel a fighter can "steal a round" with a takedown. Oftentimes, no "fighting" comes after these superficial takedowns and they actually stifle the action, and yet folks are still winning rounds this way(see Hendricks Lawler I, Hendricks Condit, Nunes Shevchenko). I'd like the rules to favor proactivity for the betterment of combat sports.
 
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I just need to preface by saying that the views that I'm about to express are very unconventional, not official criterion, and clearly no one on sherdog agrees with. I’ll try to keep it short.

I value aggression and I also value counter punching, both very highly. But I've determined that, to me, outside of what any judge or official rules say, aggression should be slightly more valuable.

The reason being, it is a fight, and it takes two to fight. It is acceptable to be defensive, but to be credited as having clearly won a particular round, the defensive party should be very obviously more effective beyond any doubt than his more aggressive opponent.

If we do not reward aggression, fighters are incentivized to conserve and simply do as little work as possible, and fighters who push forward are punished for being proactive and the sport will not have as entertaining fights as it should have at the top level.

In Maidana vs Mayweather, Maidana was very very clearly, extremely aggressive, throwing magnitudes more punches than Mayweather, bombarding Mayweather in the head, neck, groin, back..wherever he could touch him. Meanwhile, Mayweather would throw a shot or two and land not as clean as needed to justify winning the whole round. But he won them anyways.

Similar to Mayweather, Canelo was being walked down for significant portions of the fight. But unlike Mayweather, Canelo was throwing back a lot more and oftentimes landing very significant, clean shots (regardless of whether it hurt GGG or not). To me, Canelo’s output combined with a high number of clean strikes warranted him winning 6 rounds. For rounds where both styles were effective, I don’t like to arbitrarily assign a winner simply because it’s inaccurate and gives rise to biased scorecards. There were 3 such rounds for me, and 3 where I thought GGG’s aggression was more effective than Canelo’s counterattack. Thus, to me Canelo won 6-3-3 with a possible draw if I were to arbitrarily assign close rounds to GGG. And an Adelaide Byrd esque 9-3 Canelo scorecard if I liked Canelo more.

For the record, I had a lot of money on Mayweather when he fought Maidana, and was pretty nervous after 12. I don’t see how Floyd obviously won like how everyone sees it these days.
I would have to do a search to see my card from the first fight but I will and I'll edit.

Edit - 8-4 Floyd.

I agree if you just move away the whole time that isn't good defense in the same way effective aggression isn't loading up bombs. Calzaghe and too sharp often got criticised for volume vs bad intentions.

10-10 rounds are allowed but nobody seems to like them nowadays. I give it to golovkin 7-5. 6-6 or 7-5 canelo are equally ok with me. One of the best at scoring I know had it 8-4 golovkin, another similar for canelo.
 
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I just need to preface by saying that the views that I'm about to express are very unconventional, not official criterion, and clearly no one on sherdog agrees with. I’ll try to keep it short.

I value both aggression and also value counter punching, both very highly. But I've determined that, to me, outside of what any judge or official rules say, aggression should be slightly more valuable.

The reason being, it is a fight, and it takes two to fight. It is acceptable to be defensive, but to be credited as having clearly won a particular round, the defensive party should be very obviously more effective beyond any doubt than his more aggressive opponent.

If we do not aggression, fighters are incentivized to conserve and simply do as little work as possible, and fighters who push forward are punished for being proactive and the sport will not have as entertaining fights as it should have at the top level.

In Maidana vs Mayweather, Maidana was very very clearly, extremely aggressive, throwing magnitudes more punches than Mayweather, bombarding Mayweather in the head, neck, groin, back..wherever he could touch him. Meanwhile, Mayweather would throw a shot or two and land not as clean as needed to justify winning the whole round. But he won them anyways.

Alternatively, similar to Mayweather, Canelo was being walked down for significant portions of the fight. But unlike Mayweather, Canelo was throwing back a lot more and oftentimes landing very significant, clean shots (regardless of whether it hurt GGG or not). To me, Canelo’s output combined with a high number of clean strikes warranted him winning 6 rounds. For rounds where both styles were effective, I don’t like to arbitrarily assign a winner simply because it’s inaccurate and gives rise to biased scorecards. There were 3 such rounds for me, and 3 where I thought GGG’s aggression was more effective than Canelo’s counterattack. Thus, to me Canelo won 6-3-3 with a possible draw if I were to arbitrarily assign close rounds to GGG.

For the record, I had a lot of money on Mayweather when he found Maidana, and was pretty nervous after 12. I don’t see how Floyd obviously won like how everyone sees it these days.

Its weird you saw it so close in Floyd/Maidana lol

Mayweather landed like double what Maidana did if I recall correctly. Maidana did better than expected, and Mayweather still made it look pretty easy. And Maidana's my favorite.

As for your Canelo/Ggg analysis, Im in ghe same boat. Canelo had success in everything, but still gave up a lot of the ground he gained with every clean, PERFECT counterpunch he set up, flush on GGG every time, I was pretty appalled he kept letting GGG back into the fight when it seemed he was getting close to finishing him/had him hurt... Seano's description of the fight that isn't the most popular is actually one I agree alot most. Honestly, a draw is plausible, but no fucking WAY GGG won that fight. He did nothing but take a beating and try to keep people's hopes alive by looking like the aggressor and chasing with a jab and at no point does Canelo look bothered once.

Lotta people on the forum rewatching and changing their score to Canelo. We should count how many switch.
 
I can't find how I scored the first fight but I'm sure I had it mayweather.
 
Its weird you saw it so close in Floyd/Maidana lol

Mayweather landed like double what Maidana did if I recall correctly. Maidana did better than expected, and Mayweather still made it look pretty easy. And Maidana's my favorite.

As for your Canelo/Ggg analysis, Im in ghe same boat. Canelo had success in everything, but still gave up a lot of the ground he gained with every clean, PERFECT counterpunch he set up, flush on GGG every time, I was pretty appalled he kept letting GGG back into the fight when it seemed he was getting close to finishing him/had him hurt... Seano's description of the fight that isn't the most popular is actually one I agree alot most. Honestly, a draw is plausible, but no fucking WAY GGG won that fight. He did nothing but take a beating and try to keep people's hopes alive by looking like the aggressor and chasing with a jab and at no point does Canelo look bothered once.

Lotta people on the forum rewatching and changing their score to Canelo. We should count how many switch.
I think this is how we might look at a fight differently: When I try and picture what the Maidana /Mayweather fight looked like, I see Maidana pushing Floyd against the ropes and wailing away. Granted, Mayweather blocked alot of the shots, but Floyd aint winning a round by blocking shots (not to me anyways), he has to do something offensive to more than offset Maidana's aggression to clearly win a round, else it's a draw round. An aggressor who has a series of punches blocked gets more credit than the opponent who is blocking the shots. The aggressor is making a fight afterall, and blocking does wear on you after awhile. Completely whiffing on the otherhand, no one's the winner.

Now, you did say Floyd landed twice as much as Maidana. If that is true, then I'm damn hell ass blind or it was not particularly noticeable and wasn't enough for me. I did see the fight twice though, and each time I thank the gods that the judges saw as you did.
 
I think this is how we might look at a fight differently: When I try and picture what the Maidana /Mayweather fight looked like, I see Maidana pushing Floyd against the ropes and wailing away. Granted, Mayweather blocked alot of the shots, but Floyd aint winning a round by blocking shots (not to me anyways), he has to do something offensive to more than offset Maidana's aggression to clearly win a round, else it's a draw round. An aggressor who has a series of punches blocked gets more credit than the opponent who is blocking the shots. The aggressor is making a fight afterall, and blocking does wear on you after awhile. Completely whiffing on the otherhand, no one's the winner.

Now, you did say Floyd landed twice as much as Maidana. If that is true, then I'm damn hell ass blind or it was not particularly noticeable and wasn't enough for me. I did see the fight twice though, and each time I thank the gods that the judges saw as you did.

Well, they put on a good show for sure, and Maidana took rounds, but for most of it, Floyd was the better man. You made a wise bet amigo!
 
If I remember correctly their first fight Maidana didn't only have success roughing up Floyd. He also used the jab way better than expected (and more consistently than Floyd in this very specific fight).

Floyd mainly threw power punches in counters and he let Marcos blow his steam before he took over in the second half. I think I scored it 7-4-1 for Mayweather, wider than GGG-Canelo.
 
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