Do you think we'll see a "Machida" for Kung Fu?

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Choi's line of Tae Kwon Do is a blend of of Karate and Tae Kwon and Chan Fan kung-fu according to the General himself. So by you definition then Tae Kwon Do is a new distinct art.

theres no evidence choi studied kung fu and he certainly didnt know taekyyon.Keep in mind the koreans are known for stretching the truth big time in their martial history,

The hwrang lineage . the thousand year history,the kung fu connection, are just a few examples.:icon_neut

 

[shinkyoku]

I don't see a any problem.
TKD is clearly derived from karate and karate is what it was back in the 50ie-60ies (and in some places well into the 70ies), but if they want to disassociate themselves from their origin and call it a new art -fine!
As long as they don't make any of those ridiculous "2000 year old ancient art practiced by ancient korean warriors" claims to support it.

TKD was derived from Karate and to a much lesser extent from kungfu after WW2. If there was a influence from korean taekyon it was purely inspirational as that art was already dead and gone at the time.

If you want to call it korean karate or taekwondo after that is just semantics, and don't really matter (except to us fanatics).

Now, can we get back on topic?

OT ask for a kungfu practitioner to make it big in MMA, but specify that he is not interested in kungfu practitioners who compete in sanda or sanshou -the two fight competition formats available to kungfu practitioners.
We are left to wonder if a kungfu fighter could step forward from:
1. A non-competition background. No. To get good enough to switch over to MMA as a "Machida" for kungfu, you must first make a name in kungfu. You do that in competition. And not in form competitions.
2. A kickboxing background. What differs that from a sanda/sanshou background?

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

^ yeah i figured we were just bsing not at each others throats over the dicussion.:icon_chee

 

[val_lixembeau]

We are left to wonder if a kungfu fighter could step forward from:
1. A non-competition background. No. To get good enough to switch over to MMA as a "Machida" for kungfu, you must first make a name in kungfu. You do that in competition. And not in form competitions.
2. A kickboxing background. What differs that from a sanda/sanshou background?

I don't have a link handy, but in Hong Kong I have seen advertising posters for full contact kickboxing matches. I don't remember seeing any for sanda but they might exist. It depends on the exact ruleset used, but I think coming from a kickboxing background is different than a sanda one.

The advantage of coming from sanda is it is closer to MMA rules (takedowns, trips, throws, elbows) compared to pure kickboxing. I think since traditionally, in the sense of the mythology of martial arts challenges, falling out of the ring or off the platform means losing the fight or losing points, Chinese have valued throws over takedowns followed by grappling on the ground.

 

[Wolveswithkeys]

My question is, could we end up seeing somebody effectively utilize Kung Fu, or other traditional Chinese martial arts? You see some pretty neat stuff with all those different arts, with the hand trapping, sweeps, insane felxibility, and even some of the showy kicks.

The problem with those neat things you mentioned is that they're all totally useless when put up against the most basic things in mma (takedowns, wrestling/thai clinch, etc). Machida uses a small aspect of karate, that happens to be very effective when combined with other things, and that's the speed and elusiveness. He does not use a lot of the other aspects of karate because they aren't effective.

Things like hand trapping are useless in mma. If you're in that close range trying to trap the hands of an opponent trying to take your head off, you're going to get knocked out very quickly, or at least easily taken down. Kung fu provides even less useful techniques than karate.

Not to mention that although their strikes are usually very fast, they're ignorable.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

The problem with those neat things you mentioned is that they're all totally useless when put up against the most basic things in mma (takedowns, wrestling/thai clinch, etc). Machida uses a small aspect of karate, that happens to be very effective when combined with other things, and that's the speed and elusiveness. He does not use a lot of the other aspects of karate because they aren't effective.

Things like hand trapping are useless in mma. If you're in that close range trying to trap the hands of an opponent trying to take your head off, you're going to get knocked out very quickly, or at least easily taken down. Kung fu provides even less useful techniques than karate.

Not to mention that although their strikes are usually very fast, they're ignorable.

What are these lot of other aspect he doesnt use? Care to elaborate?

I think youre generalizing a bit too much, For example david ross gyms uses alot of techniques from the various kung fu styles cha tai shan taught and they are hardly unpractical or showy yet its still text book tradition and consists of techniques people have practiced in china for generations.

Amusingly these techniques are often said to look like kickboxing and are noteably different from the movie style of fighting many assume kung fu consists of. So what does this tell you? That practicality was common in kung fu and people largely have misguided notions about what exactly it looks like and what the array of techniques consist of.

 

[chaospfa]

Machida uses a small aspect of karate, that happens to be very effective when combined with other things, and that's the speed and elusiveness. He does not use a lot of the other aspects of karate because they aren't effective.

Seriously guy. What does Machida use in his fights that can't be traced back to shotokan karate?
Stance: Machida uses a hybrid stance, a mixture of zenkutsu dachi(striking stance) and hachi dachi(grappling stance).
Punches/elbows: Choku zuki(jab), gyaku zuki (cross), ura zuki(uppercut), mawashi zuki(hook), uraken (back fist), empi zuki (elbow), age empi zuki (elbow upper cut) and mawashi empi (hook elbow).
Kicks/knees: mae geri (front kick), mawashi geri (round house), ushiro geri (back kick), hiza geri (straight knee), mawashi hiza geri (hook knee), tobi hiza geri (flying knee). Machida does use some boxing and muay thai footwork, his clinch combines elements from muay thai and karate

 

[shinkyoku]

I don't have a link handy, but in Hong Kong I have seen advertising posters for full contact kickboxing matches. I don't remember seeing any for sanda but they might exist. It depends on the exact ruleset used, but I think coming from a kickboxing background is different than a sanda one.

Sorry, I phrased that wrong. I am well aware about the differences between "normal" kickboxing and sanda/sanshou (or as aware as can be expected, considering the lack of unified rules in both kickboxing and sanda/sanshou). The focus on throws and so on.
What I meant was, why would we bother with kungfu trained kickboxers and still ignore kungfu sanda fighters.

But I suspect that what the thread starter wants, is to see a Wing Chun/Tsun practitioner with no competition experience enter pro MMA and pull off chainpunch KO

 

[wang xiangzhai]

Amusingly these techniques are often said to look like kickboxing and are noteably different from the movie style of fighting many assume kung fu consists of. So what does this tell you? That practicality was common in kung fu and people largely have misguided notions about what exactly it looks like and what the array of techniques consist of.

Exactly, what "people" call "kungfu" is what kungfu people call "opera-stuff", acrobatics for opera & movies.

There are dozens of kungfu styles, in fact they are so diferent it makes no sense to say "kungfu doesnt work", there is wrestling (shuai jiao), there is striking styles, ther are mma-like styles, there is almost everything... Most of them are baroque creations from the chaministic mind of the chinese (taoism, chamanistic religions,etc) with no connection to real fight. Some of them, though, are "serious business" - and their principles & technique had nothing to envy Muay thai, karate or anyother martial art, and theres no doubt someday a chinese would be the UFC LW champ, its just a matter of time.

Someone has said before there is lil karate in what Machida does, this is partly true. He has modified his style a lot, specially the punching game (for instance, his punches have some followup which is contrary to karate principles) but his elusiveness is not something he has add to his karate, on the contrary its the karate stance and the fact he has trained those backstep thousands of times under the strict principles of karate (lifted head, neck first, coccyx tuck in,etc) that has helped him - along with his amazing reflexes and sensitivity - to bes able to step in & out of the punching range in a way diferent than the rest.

In the same way, chinese mma artists wont look too diferent than any other mma fighter, the rules and the cage determine a huge part of the game. But in their stance, in the principles of bodyalingment, in their footwork ... you would be able to catch a glimpse of their traditional background.



Wanna see how real "kungfu" looks like?

 

[BurningHero]

I think youre generalizing a bit too much, For example david ross gyms uses alot of techniques from the various kung fu styles cha tai shan taught and they are hardly unpractical or showy yet its still text book tradition and consists of techniques people have practiced in china for generations.

I forgot where I read the comment, but I once saw someone refer to full contact karate and kung fu done "correctly" as looking like muay thai. I can see what they mean by that, but I mainly see it as the fact that practical and effective techniques will be somewhat similar through different styles simply because it's the effective way to attack.

 

[barnowl]

theres no evidence choi studied kung fu and he certainly didnt know taekyyon.Keep in mind the koreans are known for stretching the truth big time in their martial history,

The hwrang lineage . the thousand year history,the kung fu connection, are just a few examples.:icon_neut

My reference for that is Choi's Manual of Tae Kwon Do. He was stationed in China for a time and that is were he picked up his Chan Fan. Based the photo's in the book of the original methods he taught, the punching range and structure are very very similiar to what I see in kung-fu Tiger styles. As far as Taekyon, can't say one way or the other.


All said though, you are correct all Asian martial arts have had a bad tendency to embellish.

 

[barnowl]

Exactly, what "people" call "kungfu" is what kungfu people call "opera-stuff", acrobatics for opera & movies.

In the same way, chinese mma artists wont look too diferent than any other mma fighter, the rules and the cage determine a huge part of the game. But in their stance, in the principles of bodyalingment, in their footwork ... you would be able to catch a glimpse of their traditional background.



Wanna see how real "kungfu" looks like?

Now that was classic Kung-Fu. I saw a nice fast Lap-lap and several nice double palm thrust.

These day's I think the preferred term for "opera-stuff" is Wire-fu

 

[SenseofTouch]

There are dozens of kungfu styles, in fact they are so diferent it makes no sense to say "kungfu doesnt work", there is wrestling (shuai jiao), there is striking styles, ther are mma-like styles, there is almost everything...

Actually, most if not ALL traditional Chinese martial arts contain 摔(wrestling), 拿(seizing & locking), 踢(kicking), and 打(striking). But different styles and/or teachers put different amounts of emphasis on these aspects. Shuai Jiao(wrestling) has always been a sport, but the throws are all solid martial techniques that can be found in the many different martial arts of China. This is the same for Chin Na(seizing & locking); it's not a style, but a category of fighting skills that, just like Shuai Jiao, can be given heavy emphasis in any Chinese martial art. To me, if a CMA'ist isn't well versed in 摔拿踢打, they cannot call themselves real kung fu fighters.

 

[wang xiangzhai]

Actually, most if not ALL traditional Chinese martial arts contain 摔(wrestling), 拿(seizing & locking), 踢(kicking), and 打(striking). But different styles and/or teachers put different amounts of emphasis on these aspects. Shuai Jiao(wrestling) has always been a sport, but the throws are all solid martial techniques that can be found in the many different martial arts of China. This is the same for Chin Na(seizing & locking); it's not a style, but a category of fighting skills that, just like Shuai Jiao, can be given heavy emphasis in any Chinese martial art. To me, if a CMA'ist isn't well versed in 摔拿踢打, they cannot call themselves real kung fu fighters.

Well, true traditional matial arts were well aware about the diferent fighting ranges, therefore they have to be well versed in "ti da shuai na", in the same way mma fighters today must be versed in the diferent disciplines, and in that sense i agree with you... yet i cannot imagine the old xingyiquan fighters worrying too much about locks - and there is not, for instance, a single chin na technique in yiquan. What i was trying to say is that the styles are so diferent (the northern styles, the south ones, the muslim influence, etc) its hard to group them under the "kungfu" label; but this will change as chinese martials arts are better known to the public.

 

[MA Historian]

Shawn Obasi is trying to be in M 1. I don't think it's going to work. Check out why in this video on youtube

 

[sanchez2413]

Now put that Kung Fu guy with a Muay Thai practicionist

 

[wiz cool c]

I have been living in china for more then 4 years now,three inbeijing now i am in shenzhen southern china. The thrhee years in beijing i trained in zhong guo shuai jiao [chinese wrestling} my last coach has a shuai jiao baclground ,and curently a blue belt in bjj and is a pro mma fighter here in china,with i think a 5 and 1 record.his lose was from some cheating ref that was the other guys teacher a sanda guy,and kept breaking it when on the ground after a few seconds,foricng my coach to fight his opponents fight and he winded. anyway if anyone wants to sponser him,name {yao hung gung} let me know.

Also i wrote an article for Kung Fu Tai Chi magazine july/august issue called [China's Shuai Jiao MMA Connection] you can buy it on their website Kungfu Magazine: Feature Index
By Chris Friedman
he is in the photos beating me up.

 

[Snubnoze707]

None of that fancy exotic kung fu but yall need to check out Kaiyan Zhang. Guy is only 21 years old.

 

[Fight Whisperer]

The fact of the matter is, there's only so many ways to throw a punch.

When I trained in Hung Ga, guess what I was taught? How to throw a punch with a strong base using your your legs, your hips, your shoulders, and putting your whole body behind the strike.

When I trained in Sanshou, guess what I was taught? How to throw a punch with a strong base using your your legs, your hips, your shoulders, and putting your whole body behind the strike.

When I trained boxing, guess what I was taught? How to throw a punch with a strong base using your your legs, your hips, your shoulders, and putting your whole body behind the strike.

When I trained Muay Thai, guess what I was taught? How to throw a punch with a strong base using your your legs, your hips, your shoulders, and putting your whole body behind the strike.

People who want to see "Kung Fu" are trying to find some guy who uses some showy flowery high kick flying bullcrap in a fight. There's some places that do that, and train that, but they aren't fighting schools so much as a opera houses and WuShu schools.

A guy using a Chinese Martial Art to fight will use techniques that are meant for fighting, for example a jab, a cross, hook, uppercut, overhand, roundhouse kick, straight kick, side kick, etc. (but with their chinese names).

As was said, there's so many styles and facets within Kung Fu. Some instructors choose to favor certain ranges and certain techniques more than others. But when it comes down to it, the ones that will work in a sport fight or an MMA fight will be the same basic punches, kicks, throws, and sweeps that you already see in combat sports.

At the same time, people have to understand, that most Kung Fu schools teach whatever style they teach not just as for fighting. Many of the arts and schools teach it as a way of life. They make it into an all encompassing life system, including health practices, chi kung, forms, meditation, ethics, self-defense (dirty fighting, I learned a lot of eye jabs, groin strikes, and throat punches in Hung Ga), weapons, etc.

So it's not quite the same as going to a Muay Thai gym and just training Muay Thai all day everyday for the purpose of getting in the ring and fighting. Some Kung Fu schools don't even incorporate combat sports into their curriculum, likewise they wouldn't do well in a sport fight format. In a way, some Kung Fu schools are almost like joining a cult (for lack of a better term). You're being introduced to a way of life. Likewise, some schools will also favor certain aspects of the system more than others (some places really into street fighting and self-defense; most of that stuff can't be used for sport, some places will favor sport fighting and Sanshou/Sanda, some places internal health and chi kung, etc.)

Most Muay Thai gyms focus on sport fighting in the ring, many BJJ places focus on sport fighting with the gi, some places focus on sport fighting without the gi, etc.

If you take a Kung Fu guy who practices the whole system as a way of life, and goes to the Kwoon somedays practicing sport techniques, some days meditation, some days weapons, some days forms, etc. and put him up against a Muay thai fighter who goes to the gym everyday and just trains for a Muay Thai fight, who do you think would win in a sport fight???? The Muay Thai guy of course, that's all he does everyday.

So with that understanding, if you put an MMA fighter against a Kung Fu guy in an MMA fight, the MMA fighter will win of course.

The fact of the matter is, if a Kung Fu guy were to fight in MMA he would have to train for MMA. If he's going up against a professional MMA fighter who trains for that type of combat 9-5 6 or 7 days a week, the Kung FU guy will have to train for MMA 9-5, 6 or 7 days a week. All of this has been proven already.

I think good points were already brought up. Machida trained for sport and brought his Karate into the sport realm. He cross trained and focused on MMA and that's why he's successful. Karate was his base style but he is a Mixed Martial Artist. Same way GSP, came from a Karate base, but he is a mixed martial artist.

The fact that Muay Thai, Boxing, BJJ, and wrestling are so prevalent and work so well is because they are very sport oriented. If you go to a boxing gym all they are working on all day is geared toward sport fighting and competition.

A Kung Fu guy fighting in a sport format will most likely look pretty similar to a Muay Thai guy, a wrestler, judoka, or a boxer, that's why there's Sanda and Sanshou as a sport form for Kung Fu. The most effective techniques from Kung Fu, are going to be punches, kicks, throws, and takedowns. Not much different than any other fighting art. The difference is in the training methods. I completely agree, some stuff in Kung Fu seems completely useless in a fight, but not all Kung FU is about fighting.

Here's some more examples of what Kung Fu toward sport fighting will look like:

YouTube - New York Hung Ga San Da kickboxing sparring demo (2009)

YouTube - NYHG San Da Drills (2010)

Basically looks alot like boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, etc. right? Because those are the techniques from Kung Fu that work best in combat sports and in general fighting.

I'm not sure exactly what you guys are looking for. But if you want some dude to walk to the octagon dressed in some traditional chinese Enter the Dragon looking outfit and do flashy kicks flowery kicks (Cung Le already does that minus the ridiculous wardrobe) chain punches, tiger claw (which would be considered illegal in MMA), and for Joe Rogan to boast about how said fighter has been living in a Shaolin Temple since he was a orphaned as a 2 year old and training in Kung Fu with monks for 25 years; I seriously doubt this is ever going to happen. Either that, or you are just as deluded as the silly Karate guys spliced in that Joe Rogan YouTube video above.

Sanshou and Sanda fighters are the best bet for seeing a Kung Fu guy in MMA, simply because they train the way fighters do geared toward sport and ring techniques and actually applying the techniques in live fighting and not also spending time doing forms, meditating, doing chi kung, and self-defense dirty fighting stuff. It's focused on sport and sport oriented techniques. Traditional Kung Fu often doesn't train the same way, because most of the styles are all encompassing systems.

 

[chshogun**]

Most people confuse Kung Fu with Wushu.

That said, I don't believe Kung Fu exists anymore. The styles probably died out overtime into non-existence sort of like Latin.

Everything that claims to be Kung Fu is more-or-less like claiming English and French to be Latin.