Do you think we'll see a "Machida" for Kung Fu?

[leftlegkicker]

TKD IS Krotty brah! Why do you think its called Korean karate?

You need to stop making this blanket statement equating TKD with Karate. Yes, they are stylistically similar, and I will even grant the roots of TKD in Shotokan. But the TKD of today, especially Kukki TKD of today, looks worlds different from the TKD of the 50's and 60's. TKD Sparring has developed into a completely different sport from Karate, and even the forms have gradually evolved away from their roots. You are oversimplifying at best.

 

[Vil7]

Jason Delucia was a good call. I think Brett Rogers had some wing chun kung fu training and Eugene Jackson had some kind of background in kung fu but I am not sure how much they used it in their fights.

In kickboxing Pete Cunningham and Manson Gibson came from a kung fu background. Cunningham looked more orthodox when he fought but Manson used a lot of kung fu techniques and when he fought and stood kind of sideways almost like a horse stance. Both of them had successful careers too.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

You need to stop making this blanket statement equating TKD with Karate. Yes, they are stylistically similar, and I will even grant the roots of TKD in Shotokan. But the TKD of today, especially Kukki TKD of today, looks worlds different from the TKD of the 50's and 60's. TKD Sparring has developed into a completely different sport from Karate, and even the forms have gradually evolved away from their roots. You are oversimplifying at best.

Yes and keep in mind some of us still practice a form of tkd that is more in touch with the past and its karate heritage than the modern variation.

The fact still remains Tkd's exsistence is entirely based on Shotokan and the style despite its varied interpretations still retains a distinct karate flavour.

 

[leftlegkicker]

Yes and keep in mind some of us still practice a form of tkd that is more in touch with the past and its karate heritage than the modern variation.

Fine, but bear in mind then you represent a tiny fraction of the population. For all intents and purposes, TKD today means Kukki or ITF TKD, and even ITF TKD has significantly evolved away from its Shotokan influences. If you want to be technical about it, anyone practicing "Korean Karate" should call their art Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do, not TKD.

The fact still remains Tkd's exsistence is entirely based on Shotokan and the style despite its varied interpretations still retains a distinct karate flavour.

This is debateable. I grant that Shotokan influenced the early days of TKD. But to say that it's entirely responsible is an overstatement, and is disrespectful to the many individuals that made significant contributions to the art that resulted in its differentiation from Karate. Equating modern TKD with Karate is like equating BJJ with Judo. It ignores the significant differences in the arts today, and insults the Gracies (and others) who were responsible for the contributions that made the art what it is today. The contributions made by the Gracies and the early Korean TKD masters were not merely trivial variations in their respective arts. They had a profound impact on the evolution of their fighting styles.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

This is debateable. I grant that Shotokan influenced the early days of TKD. But to say that it's entirely responsible is an overstatement, and is disrespectful to the many individuals that made significant contributions to the art that resulted in its differentiation from Karate. Equating modern TKD with Karate is like equating BJJ with Judo. It ignores the significant differences in the arts today, and insults the Gracies (and others) who were responsible for the contributions that made the art what it is today. The contributions made by the Gracies and the early Korean TKD masters were not merely trivial variations in their respective arts. They had a profound impact on the evolution of their fighting styles.

Think about it Tkd still retains the shotokan based kata the one and three step sparring, the makiwara training, the karate belt ranking system the unfiorms.etc.etc

Granted there are differences most noteably kicking as Tkd tried to distance itself from karate by focusing more on kicking and you'll find differences in hip and stepping movements in both styles however given the fact the founders of Tkd often knew little else besides Shotokan you cant expect the art to take a huge leap away from its roots as the founders would have had to resort to pulling things out of their arses for that to occur.

 

[chaospfa]

^ I'm going to have to call BS on that. Never once have I ever heard anything about Anderson having a Karate background. He trained TKD as a kid (blackbelt), has done some Capoeira, is a Judo BB, but no Karate training.

Now, i'm sure he knows some Karate from training with Machida, but that by no means makes him a karateka.

Before A. Silva joined Chute box, and after he quit tkd he took up kyokushin, got his green belt and participated in a Ichigecki tournament. Is that enough to qualify him as a karateka?

 

[Frode Falch]

Machida uses about as much pure Karate as Cung Le uses pure Kung Fu..

 

[Connoisseur]

Before A. Silva joined Chute box, and after he quit tkd he took up kyokushin, got his green belt and participated in a Ichigecki tournament. Is that enough to qualify him as a karateka?

Source? I've never heard this before.

It wouldn't surprise me, but i've done at least a cursory google search and have turned up nothing.

Edit- I googled "Anderson Silva Ichigecki tournament", and this turned up:
7/31 Ichigeki in Brasil - Kyokushin4life

"Ichigeki Brasil 2010" will be held in Brasil on 7/31. Mori Zenjuro will fight against Anderson Silva from Brasil in a Karate one-match.

In Kickboxing fights we have Jan Soukup and Sato Takumi against fighters from Brasil.

No It`s not Anderson Silva from MMA. Actually Anderson Silva is a really common name in Brasil . The Anderson Silva that is fighting is one good promisse for the future of kyokushin from Brazil , he won many fights in here, (including the open weight brazilian championship), fought in the all america open, south american championship and world championship.
here some videos from him....

Maybe you had Anderson confused with someone else?

I've honestly never heard a thing about The Spider training Karate, though.

 

[Connoisseur]

Machida uses about as much pure Karate as Cung Le uses pure Kung Fu..

Actually, Cung Le's Sanshou style is very similar to his kickboxing matches. Sanda rules allow takedowns, and Cung makes extensive use of all the Sanshou style kicks (including turning side kicks, side thrust kick, punching technique, etc).

And as I understand, Machida Karate (developed by Lyoto's dad) has always included knees & elbows. Obviously Lyoto's striking has been influenced by Muay Thai & MMA training, though.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Machida uses about as much pure Karate as Cung Le uses pure Kung Fu..

Theres no such thing as pure kung fu or karate or anything for that matter.

Through out its history various teachers have changed countless systems by adding different things or removing them in order to improve the art. In other words they crossed trained and mixed styles.

Therefore no modern day practioner can lay claim to a pure anything. If they do they are delusional.

 

[leftlegkicker]

Think about it Tkd still retains the shotokan based kata the one and three step sparring, the makiwara training, the karate belt ranking system the unfiorms.etc.etc

I didn't say that the Shotokan roots weren't there. I said that modern TKD has evolved considerably from its roots due to varying influences such that it is now a very different art. You can go on about how your dojang continues to carry the torch for old school TKD that is more karate-like, and that's fine, but you don't speak for the majority of TKD practitioners. The fact remains that ITF and Kukki TKD are the predominant styles today, and they look very different from Shotokan.

Granted there are differences most noteably kicking as Tkd tried to distance itself from karate by focusing more on kicking and you'll find differences in hip and stepping movements in both styles however given the fact the founders of Tkd often knew little else besides Shotokan you cant expect the art to take a huge leap away from its roots as the founders would have had to resort to pulling things out of their arses for that to occur.

You make it sound as if these developments are merely trivial variations. They are not. The arts are considerably different now. Equating TKD with Karate is as ridiculous as saying BJJ is basically the same thing as Judo, and is insulting to the individuals responsible for the innovations in both arts.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

You make it sound as if these developments are merely trivial variations. They are not. The arts are considerably different now. Equating TKD with Karate is as ridiculous as saying BJJ is basically the same thing as Judo, and is insulting to the individuals responsible for the innovations in both arts.

In the book "a killing art" they mention how choi modified a shotokan low block by ending its downward swing at the center of the stomach rather than swinging outward from the waist as it is done tradtionaly . You call things like this dramatic alterations?

Further in General Chois 'Taekwondo the art of seld defense" he clearly states that TKd is a style of karate practiced in Korea and the techniques are almost similar to Japanese karate.

 

[MysticNinjaJay]

Cung Le is the successful Kung Fu representative.




You said not to mention him because he was a San Shou fighter. Why in the world not?

Cung Le has a Traditional Martial Arts background just like Lyoto Machida. He started doing Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do when he was a child and that is where he gets his advanced/flashy kicks.

Machida himself is not even a pure Karateka. Karate is his base but he cross-trains in a variety of disciplines just like every other MMA fighter.

You've got to realize that Machida's Karate background was played up by the UFC. It was a theme used to sell tickets. Sure, Machida's Karate background is important to him because he is honoring his father and their family's style but he's not the first UFC champion with a Karate background. Doing katas and wearing a Gi to the Octagon does not make you a pure Karateka.


Cung Le, competed in and won several Martial Arts tournaments before he started competing in San Shou just like Machida who was successful in the point Karate circuit before transitioning to MMA.

 

[leftlegkicker]

In the book "a killing art" they mention how choi modified a shotokan low block by ending its downward swing at the center of the stomach rather than swinging outward from the waist as it is done tradtionaly . You call things like this dramatic alterations?

Further in General Chois 'Taekwondo the art of seld defense" he clearly states that TKd is a style of karate practiced in Korea and the techniques are almost similar to Japanese karate.

One example of blocking proves nothing, especially when you're giving a forms example which I already conceded to regarding the basic similarities. I never said the influences are not there. I said that the art has evolved to a point where it looks very different, in particular the sparring. And citing anything by Choi is inapplicable to modern Kukki TKD. Choi's thoughts on TKD are hardly considered contemporary, since his TKD prime was back at least 30 years ago.

As I keep saying, I'm talking about MODERN TKD. Not TKD from the 60's. TKD has evolved considerably since those times. It's not just the fact that they kick more. The whole system of footwork is completely different. Combinations of jeonjin/ilbo jeonjin/hoojin/ilbo hoojin that are used today did not exist then. Back then, it was common to see skip side kicks and hook kicks in addition to standard back leg roundhouse kicks. Now you almost never see hook kicks or side kicks, and roundhouse kicks are thrown as doubles, triples, front leg, back leg, badachagis, bada into doubles, narabams, etc. Cut kicks and cover punching are other innovations that has been used more in the last 10-20 years. Leg checking and "surfing" as defensive techniques were not largely used until the 90s and onward. Even looking at Olympic TKD matches from 1988 compared to 2008, the evolution of the art is pretty obvious.

 

[Snubnoze707]

Don't even bother with LEGS BALONY he can't even distinguish the difference between a Thai style round kick and a Karate style round kick. To him "a kick is a kick"...

 

[Gfreak]

I"ve seen that guy in the red before, and i'm fairly sure that he's a high level Taekwando practitioner.

 

[chaospfa]

Source? I've never heard this before.

It wouldn't surprise me, but i've done at least a cursory google search and have turned up nothing.

Edit- I googled "Anderson Silva Ichigecki tournament", and this turned up:
7/31 Ichigeki in Brasil - Kyokushin4life



Maybe you had Anderson confused with someone else?

I've honestly never heard a thing about The Spider training Karate, though.

My sensei has an issue of the South African Blackbelt magazine and in one of the pics covering the Ichigecki tournament you can see a guy who looks a lot like A. Silva wearing a green belt, the photo is credited to A. Silva and the time line co incides with a gap in his training history. Unfortunately Anderson Silva is a quite common name in Brasil and accurate records from that time are quite scarce.

 

[Connoisseur]

My sensei has an issue of the South African Blackbelt magazine and in one of the pics covering the Ichigecki tournament you can see a guy who looks a lot like A. Silva wearing a green belt, the photo is credited to A. Silva and the time line co incides with a gap in his training history. Unfortunately Anderson Silva is a quite common name in Brasil and accurate records from that time are quite scarce.

Well, that's fair. I'll take your word for it.

I'd be interested to see who he trained with though. Never knew that about A Silva, he really has trained a ton in all different types of striking arts. TKD, Kyokushin, Capoeira, Muay Thai, Boxing. Real striking virtuoso.

 

[chaospfa]

Well, that's fair. I'll take your word for it.

I'd be interested to see who he trained with though. Never knew that about A Silva, he really has trained a ton in all different types of striking arts. TKD, Kyokushin, Capoeira, Muay Thai, Boxing. Real striking virtuoso.

It would be cool if someone could get his input on the matter.

 

[LEGS MAHONEY]

Don't even bother with LEGS BALONY he can't even distinguish the difference between a Thai style round kick and a Karate style round kick. To him "a kick is a kick"...

Pardon me? Who was the one who reasoned they could speak on TKD and karate because they know two random guys who supposedly train it? LOL

Yes if only people go their martial education largely from reading forums and occasionally working out with god knows who like you do then they would be able to dissect entire styles at a whim.

I really should disregard all my hands on training with a first generation military instructor in the art and take your route maybe i'll finally learn a thing or two about the style . XD