Do you think JDS is really the man to beat at Heavyweight?

Discussion in 'UFC Discussion' started by Natman2939, Dec 25, 2012.

  1. Natman2939

    Natman2939 Gold Belt

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    NOTE: Scroll down to the bottom if you want the short version

    Back before and during the Sylvia days, then Couture, and until a certain point of the Lesnar days; the UFC Champion was just the UFC Champion.

    He was not necessarily the #1 Heavyweight or the true "guy to beat" at Heavyweight.

    That was Fedor Emelianenko. The former Pride Champion, the WAMMA Champion (basically a continuation of the Pride title) and the #1 ranked Heavyweight in the world.

    Then something crazy happened: Fedor lost. He lost to Fabricio Werdum. Sadly MMA always as simple as "beat the man become the man" and though it was controversial to a lot of people, Werdum didn't jump to #1 because he was too low ranked when he fought Fedor (he was either #8 or #9 when he fought Fedor)

    Instead the rank of #1 was up for grabs between the winner of Brock Lesnar vs Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar won in round 2 via tap out.

    but at that point, though Brock was ranked #1, there was still a lot of controversy as to whether or not he was "the man to beat"

    Belts arn't everything. Some things mean more. So while Brock was Champion, a lot of people looked at Werdum, they (oddly at the time) looked at Alistair Overeem; and Josh Barnett, and a couple of the better UFC contenders like Cain and Junior Dos Santos.

    Well then the scene cleaned itself up a little bit. Cain took out Brock, Junior took out Cain. Barnett was defeated by Cormier (finally getting him out of the discussion which he had been in solely because he hadn't been defeated in such a long time)

    but a combination of things created a potential new "man to beat"

    First off, Alistair Overeem defeated Fabricio Werdum, thus all the people who said Fabricio should be "the man" because he was the one to beat Fedor, where now looking to Alistair

    but it was more than that. A lot of people will argue that hype (real or otherwise), potential, and momentum shouldn't be taken into account nearly as much as pure wins

    but the truth is, anyone who's paid attention to MMA over the years knows that hype/potential/momentum often play a very big role in the politics of MMA.

    They're the reason someone like Glover Teixeira is getting offered fights with Rampage and Shogun despite only having one win in the UFC (he has two now but he only had one when those fights were first offered)

    They're the reason someone like Anderson Silva got a MW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

    They're the reason Brock Lesnar got a HW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

    They're a big part of the reason someone like Nick Diaz was touted as potentially the man to beat GSP before even his win over Penn.

    I could go on and on.

    but the point is this "it factor" that I'm talking about, this combination of hype/potential/and momentum had people believing that Alistair Overeem may have already been the Best Heavyweight in the World even before the Duffee fight (where Bas Rutten said it and many others agreed) NOTE: not saying anyone said he deserved a #1 ranking. Rankings and actually being the best arn't always the same.

    One of the best examples of this factor at play was the Alistair's recent fight with Werdum.
    It's funny, I said earlier a belt is just a belt, and that's true, but a rank is also just a rank when people know that it's not right.

    What speaks the truth in MMA more than anything? Odds.

    Can they be wrong? OF COURSE! Upsets happen all the time

    but... the favorite wins a lot more than the underdog does. And here's the crazy thing about Alistair Overeem vs Fabricio Werdum 2: On paper, there's almost no reason Werdum shouldn't have been a favorite
    -Werdum was the seasoned HW, who had been fighting high ranking HW's his entire career while Overeem had almost exclusively been fighting cans and weak opponents since moving to HW
    -Werdum was the one who JUST BEAT FEDOR in his very last fight
    -and Werdum held a win over Alistair Overeem.

    Think about that...

    HW who's fought and beaten well ranked HW's, just beat the best HW in the world, and already his a win over his upcoming opponent vs HW who's fought only weak HW's, only has one win over a top 10 ranked HW, and lost to his upcoming opponent in the 1st match.

    Who's the favorite out of those 2? Who sounds like they should be? Obviously the first guy but guess what? Alistair Overeem was a -290 favorite, in some places as high as -365.

    I say again: Belts are just belts. Ranks are just ranks... but odds speak more truth than anything.

    What was it the oddsmakers new that defied logic? The style of the match? Or was it the fact that something about The Reem had looked unstoppable (even if it was only against weak opponents and in another sport)

    Then the Reem fights Brock and is again the favorite, only a slight favorite but this time against a man ranked in the top 3 at the time, and the Reem is the favorite.

    TLDR/Getting to my point: Despite his many impressive wins, I don't think Junior Dos Santos (or Cain) can possibly be the true top heavyweight until the Reem is beaten. I think he has as much, if not more momentum going for him than JDS. I think if they were scheduled to fight that Overeem should be the favorite because he is the true man to beat at Heavyweight.
     
  2. Hideo

    Hideo Purple Belt

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    But Overeem cheated. His "momentum" is tainted, which makes it meaningless imo. People will get upset at that notion, but it is what it is. The winner of the JDS/Cain rematch is the top dog in the MMA world.
     
  3. s1fys

    s1fys abc

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    Your short version is still too long. Need a shorter version.
     
  4. Mga223

    Mga223 Steel Belt

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    Jds is the man to beat IMO especially since overeem failed his tests... Any win he has now will be tainted in my eyes even though I will watch.

    Overeem is the biggest threat to JDS though
     
  5. ProBingoPlr***

    ProBingoPlr*** Purple Belt

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    yep.

    More impressive wins + he's the champion of the main organization.

    I think Overeem is more charismatic and more susceptible to hype though, which may have caused you to believe he's the man to beat right now.
     
  6. Natman2939

    Natman2939 Gold Belt

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    Reem>JDS
     
  7. Randy Marsh

    Randy Marsh by armbar

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    Overeem is the lineal heavyweight champ and has some nice hype surrounding him at the moment. Would drastically increase any heavyweight's stock, if they were to beat Overeem right now. I just really hope we get to see JDS/Overeem soon. This is my version of a super fight.
     
  8. Natman2939

    Natman2939 Gold Belt

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    I don't understand how you can hold that against him so much when he didn't fail a test for a fight; it wasn't like he pissed hot after a fight or the day of the weigh in (which is why despite being a diehard Lesnar fan, I've never acted like he was on anything during the lesnar fight because he tested clean after the lesnar fight--directly after that is)

    The test that he came up positive for was some random test in between fights AND he had a perfectly good explanation for it (that HE brought up by the way...all the commission knew was he had elevated levels, HE came out and said "I think it was the testosterone in this shot I was given")
     
  9. zackryder

    zackryder Long Island Iced Z Platinum Member

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    any1 beating overeem in the HW division would increase their stock dramatically

    he pretty much has the other belts...he just needs the ufc belt to complete his collection

    [​IMG]
     
  10. Natman2939

    Natman2939 Gold Belt

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    As much as I want Cain to win so people will stop underrating him, I want JDS to win just because of this fight.

    I do think JDS/Overeem is potentially the coolest fight in ALL of HW history. I know that's been said a few too many times in the last few years, but this was for me just is so right on so many levels.

    Mostly because they're game is both striking. So we're essentially going to get the closest thing you can get to a kickboxing match in MMA, between the two best heavyweight strikers possibly ever, and both with brutal one punch ko power.
     
  11. zackryder

    zackryder Long Island Iced Z Platinum Member

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    well thats wat i thought about the jds vs carwin fight (ye i know carwin is a wrestler but he didnt really go for any TDs in that fight)

    but it somehow went to a decision
     
  12. eXtv

    eXtv Red Belt

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    The winner of Cain/JDS will be the man to beat, and the winner of Cain/JDS vs. Reem/BF will be the real man to beat.
     
  13. dieknowsore

    dieknowsore Brown Belt

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    take your head out of your ass
     
  14. Jawth

    Jawth Silver Belt

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    JDS beat Cain, Carwin, Mir, Werdum, Nelson, and Struve.

    Overeem beat Werdum, Lesnar, and.....Rogers? Duffee?

    JDS is ranked #1 for a reason and when the two do fight Junior is going to beat fhat cheater down.
     
  15. Paradox

    Paradox White Belt

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    Do people on these boards completely disregard the fact that taking performance enhancing drugs is cheating? Reem is still held in such high regard despite his the massive physical gains he has clearly achieved by taking some seriously good horse meat. In other sports athletes are disgraced after being found out as a drugs cheat.
    Regardless of whether Reem is on the roids when their inevitable fight happens. I expect that they will both land some bombs and Reem will wake up flat on his back. Reem's chin has never been great, unlike JDS's.
    JDS has beaten just about every legit heavy weight except for Cormier.
     
  16. Lito Lapida

    Lito Lapida Brown Belt

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    Reem nuthuggers should really start sucking the drugs out of Reem's balls. just kidding :)

    Can't wait to see JDS/Cain vs. Reem to see who really is the top dog at HW.
     
  17. Randy Marsh

    Randy Marsh by armbar

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    Pretty much how I feel. Cain is my favorite heavyweight, but a part of me can't help but hope that JDS wins for the sake of being able to see JDS vs. Overeem ASAP.

    Of course assuming Overeem beats Bigfoot.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. lockon

    lockon Black Belt

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    JDS is currently the man to beat
     
  19. Mavant

    Mavant Blue Belt

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    It all depends on how Reem was using the roids. If he used them to get strength and power...with the roids gone, he'll probably wont be as effective. If, however, he was using them as a recovery tool to improve his training and skills...with the roids gone, he would still have the skills but lose the quick recovery time so he'd probably need a better conditioning regimen.
     
  20. KOREANZOMBIE420

    KOREANZOMBIE420 Green Belt

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    the only fighter I think that would give JDS problems is Overeem. Cain might last a few more rounds than his first fight with JDS, but the outcome will be the same. I am talking about really hurt JDS and put him in a position he hasn't been in before so far as the heavyweight champion. Who else other than Overeem is an actual threat to take the belt and decisively beat JDS. No one. After that probably Werdum. But there really is no close second though after Overeem. MY OPINION.
     

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