Do you think JDS is really the man to beat at Heavyweight?

[Honestnathaniel]

Natman that was a hell of a post, but Rogers was nowhere near beating Fedor.

 

[Natman2939]

B+ thread.

The champion is the champion not because he wears a belt, but because he is the champion in the minds of the people. JDS is #1 for that reason, and it's the same reason jones was #1 before he beat shogun.

Well I'm glad you at least agree with the concept that someone can be #1 before actually winning the belt (i'm not sure about jones but Machida definitely was before beating rashad)

One of those fighters has a very solid chin and the other one has one formed from porcelain.

check my last post. This idea of Overeem's chin is a complete joke; it's based on old LHW fights and a fight with Sergei (one of the hardest hitters hw has ever seen) back when reem was still a LHW.

The only people to even phase Reem since the sergei fight are BADRI HARI (just one of the best k1 fighters of all time, and considered the best k1 fighter at the time..no big deal) Remy Bonjasky, and to a lesser extent tyrone spong

all way better strikers than junior dos santos

 

[Russian Bear]

I still think Overeem is the best heavyweight in the world, JDS just keeping his seat warm.

 

[Someone88]

Dos Santos is the best heavyweight fighter in MMA.

 

[Natman2939]

Natman that was a hell of a post, but Rogers was nowhere near beating Fedor.

I disagree sir. Fedor was in danger, especially when he was pinned against the cage and Roger was dropping bombs down on him. By the grace of God, they were missing but if they hadn't, it would've been Fedor/Hendo

plus on top of that, Fedor was seriously struggling with Roger's size and power. I've done a lot of looking into this because Fedor is one of my favorites of all time and I wanted to know exactly when he started losing his touch;

and in hindsight, when i rewatched the rogers fight, i can see now how much trouble Fedor was in. It's why he was looking for such big knockout punches in the first place, he wasn't even sure how handle rogers (he wanted to get him down and get on top but he couldn't keep him down for more than a second and rogers would just stand up effortlessly)

 

[Don Mike]

That Big Gold Belt wrapped around JDS' waist would suggest that he is the man to beat!

 

[Honestnathaniel]

I disagree sir. Fedor was in danger, especially when he was pinned against the cage and Roger was dropping bombs down on him. By the grace of God, they were missing but if they hadn't, it would've been Fedor/Hendo

plus on top of that, Fedor was seriously struggling with Roger's size and power. I've done a lot of looking into this because Fedor is one of my favorites of all time and I wanted to know exactly when he started losing his touch;

and in hindsight, when i rewatched the rogers fight, i can see now how much trouble Fedor was in. It's why he was looking for such big knockout punches in the first place, he wasn't even sure how handle rogers (he wanted to get him down and get on top but he couldn't keep him down for more than a second and rogers would just stand up effortlessly)

I agree that Rogers size and strength had Fedor rattled, he didnt look like himself on the ground either. But I think the fact his face was busted gave the impression that he was in worse shape than he really was, it looked to me like Fedor was fine going in to the 2nd round and was going for the knockout haymaker cause well thats what he loved to do and he figured it was his bet bet to put away this big, powerful guy.

 

[Natman2939]

I still think Overeem is the best heavyweight in the world, JDS just keeping his seat warm.

agreed completely.

I think Overeem is the clear favorite in every category except cardio and speed (but he more than makes up for it)

Even JDS' power and knockout ability are overrated (CALM DOWN---I didn't say unwarranted, I say overrated... which can even mean just a tiny bit)

for example, I've seen so many times people say "all JDS has to do is get one punch through and he'll beat Overeem"

Did people watch Junior's last fight? It took him 2 rounds to finish Frank Mir... and Frank STOOD with him the entire time. It also took him 2 rounds to finish Gonzaga...

So let's not act like he pulls a JDS/Cain or JDS/Werdum in all of his fights.

This really just comes down to people underestimating Alistair's chin and defense (which even if his chin was weak, his defense is strong)

Is it going to be very hard for JDS to actually land a good punch on Overeem's chin. He's going to be hitting his arms all day.

 

[Thorst13]

Reem<JDS

Fixed!

 

[LSXMMA]

check my last post. This idea of Overeem's chin is a complete joke; it's based on old LHW fights and a fight with Sergei (one of the hardest hitters hw has ever seen) back when reem was still a LHW.

The only people to even phase Reem since the sergei fight are BADRI HARI (just one of the best k1 fighters of all time, and considered the best k1 fighter at the time..no big deal) Remy Bonjasky, and to a lesser extent tyrone spong

all way better strikers than junior dos santos

I love K1 and follow it very closely but unfortunately for overeem this is MMA. The larger gloves aren't there for him to use as striking defense. Overeem tends to get hit by average and better strikers in MMA due to his piss poor striking defense.

He made a career of getting his jaw cracked at LHW and the one time he fought a great boxer in MMA he got it broke again after turning and jogging away.

JDS will find his chin and he will prove that it is a weakness.

 

[aldeniro78]

JDS is the only the fucking champion.

What a stupid thread.

 

[Russian Bear]

agreed completely.

I think Overeem is the clear favorite in every category except cardio and speed (but he more than makes up for it)

Even JDS' power and knockout ability are overrated (CALM DOWN---I didn't say unwarranted, I say overrated... which can even mean just a tiny bit)

for example, I've seen so many times people say "all JDS has to do is get one punch through and he'll beat Overeem"

Did people watch Junior's last fight? It took him 2 rounds to finish Frank Mir... and Frank STOOD with him the entire time. It also took him 2 rounds to finish Gonzaga...

So let's not act like he pulls a JDS/Cain or JDS/Werdum in all of his fights.

This really just comes down to people underestimating Alistair's chin and defense (which even if his chin was weak, his defense is strong)

Is it going to be very hard for JDS to actually land a good punch on Overeem's chin. He's going to be hitting his arms all day.

agree with everything you just said, I think the real question is how will JDS deal with the powerful kicks of Overeem, from memory i don't really recall anyone attacking the legs of JDS.

 

[van1ty]

Natman... trust me though... Overeem will be the dog to either JDS or Cain. Not by a big margin... but he will be the dog.

 

[Codpiece]

JDS beat Cain, Carwin, Mir, Werdum, Nelson, and Struve.

Overeem beat Werdum, Lesnar, and.....Rogers? Duffee?

JDS is ranked #1 for a reason and when the two do fight Junior is going to beat fhat cheater down.

Love your threads Natman, they are usually thought provoking. But in this case, Jawth has the right of it, Overeem may be the lineal champ, but he hasn't got a r

 

[MMAEXP3RT]

NOTE: Scroll down to the bottom if you want the short version

Back before and during the Sylvia days, then Couture, and until a certain point of the Lesnar days; the UFC Champion was just the UFC Champion.

He was not necessarily the #1 Heavyweight or the true "guy to beat" at Heavyweight.

That was Fedor Emelianenko. The former Pride Champion, the WAMMA Champion (basically a continuation of the Pride title) and the #1 ranked Heavyweight in the world.

Then something crazy happened: Fedor lost. He lost to Fabricio Werdum. Sadly MMA always as simple as "beat the man become the man" and though it was controversial to a lot of people, Werdum didn't jump to #1 because he was too low ranked when he fought Fedor (he was either #8 or #9 when he fought Fedor)

Instead the rank of #1 was up for grabs between the winner of Brock Lesnar vs Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar won in round 2 via tap out.

but at that point, though Brock was ranked #1, there was still a lot of controversy as to whether or not he was "the man to beat"

Belts arn't everything. Some things mean more. So while Brock was Champion, a lot of people looked at Werdum, they (oddly at the time) looked at Alistair Overeem; and Josh Barnett, and a couple of the better UFC contenders like Cain and Junior Dos Santos.

Well then the scene cleaned itself up a little bit. Cain took out Brock, Junior took out Cain. Barnett was defeated by Cormier (finally getting him out of the discussion which he had been in solely because he hadn't been defeated in such a long time)

but a combination of things created a potential new "man to beat"

First off, Alistair Overeem defeated Fabricio Werdum, thus all the people who said Fabricio should be "the man" because he was the one to beat Fedor, where now looking to Alistair

but it was more than that. A lot of people will argue that hype (real or otherwise), potential, and momentum shouldn't be taken into account nearly as much as pure wins

but the truth is, anyone who's paid attention to MMA over the years knows that hype/potential/momentum often play a very big role in the politics of MMA.

They're the reason someone like Glover Teixeira is getting offered fights with Rampage and Shogun despite only having one win in the UFC (he has two now but he only had one when those fights were first offered)

They're the reason someone like Anderson Silva got a MW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

They're the reason Brock Lesnar got a HW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

They're a big part of the reason someone like Nick Diaz was touted as potentially the man to beat GSP before even his win over Penn.

I could go on and on.

but the point is this "it factor" that I'm talking about, this combination of hype/potential/and momentum had people believing that Alistair Overeem may have already been the Best Heavyweight in the World even before the Duffee fight (where Bas Rutten said it and many others agreed) NOTE: not saying anyone said he deserved a #1 ranking. Rankings and actually being the best arn't always the same.

One of the best examples of this factor at play was the Alistair's recent fight with Werdum.
It's funny, I said earlier a belt is just a belt, and that's true, but a rank is also just a rank when people know that it's not right.

What speaks the truth in MMA more than anything? Odds.

Can they be wrong? OF COURSE! Upsets happen all the time

but... the favorite wins a lot more than the underdog does. And here's the crazy thing about Alistair Overeem vs Fabricio Werdum 2: On paper, there's almost no reason Werdum shouldn't have been a favorite
-Werdum was the seasoned HW, who had been fighting high ranking HW's his entire career while Overeem had almost exclusively been fighting cans and weak opponents since moving to HW
-Werdum was the one who JUST BEAT FEDOR in his very last fight
-and Werdum held a win over Alistair Overeem.

Think about that...

HW who's fought and beaten well ranked HW's, just beat the best HW in the world, and already his a win over his upcoming opponent vs HW who's fought only weak HW's, only has one win over a top 10 ranked HW, and lost to his upcoming opponent in the 1st match.

Who's the favorite out of those 2? Who sounds like they should be? Obviously the first guy but guess what? Alistair Overeem was a -290 favorite, in some places as high as -365.

I say again: Belts are just belts. Ranks are just ranks... but odds speak more truth than anything.

What was it the oddsmakers new that defied logic? The style of the match? Or was it the fact that something about The Reem had looked unstoppable (even if it was only against weak opponents and in another sport)

Then the Reem fights Brock and is again the favorite, only a slight favorite but this time against a man ranked in the top 3 at the time, and the Reem is the favorite.

TLDR/Getting to my point: Despite his many impressive wins, I don't think Junior Dos Santos (or Cain) can possibly be the true top heavyweight until the Reem is beaten. I think he has as much, if not more momentum going for him than JDS. I think if they were scheduled to fight that Overeem should be the favorite because he is the true man to beat at Heavyweight.

Cool story bro.

 

[Azathoth]

Your short version is still too long. Need a shorter version.

Herp derp

 

[TFanatic]

Common opponents definitely don't matter because styles make fights. Like I said, that's just been proven over and over again.

Now I never said how impressive you beat top competition doesn't matter.

If you're really interested to know more of my reasoning, I'd suggest you read the full OP. I can't think of much I can say to your reply that I didn't already say in the OP.

I acknowledge that JDS has beaten more people at HW and done more; but

A: the lineal thing does matter. It's not magic, it's an unofficial title. Beating Fedor was more important than winning the UFC title from Tim Sylvia... or Randy Couture or Brock Lesnar (or even Cain Velasquez or at this point Junior Dos Santos) beating Fedor was the most important thing that has ever been done in the history of heavyweight MMA.

and by beating Fedor, the man that beat him did take on his lineal title

and The Reem did beat the man that beat the man

but as I explained in the OP, that's not the main reason. The main reason is simply how good he seems to be. (see: the part of the OP about Hype/Potential/Momentum) it's the same reason Glover is a big favorite over Rampage Jackson despite never having fought anyone close to Rampage's level.

Oddmakers and fans somehow knew that Overeem was almost certainly going to beat Werdum.

In a "possible future fight" oddsmakers even had Overeem favored to beat Fedor BEFORE Fedor lost to Werdum.

Why is that? Because despite not completely proving it yet with a bunch of top wins, people can just tell how good he is. (Of course the grand prix and demolishing brett rogers after he nearly beat fedor helped a lot too)

I know people will say this isn't K1 and people will discredit Brett Rogers (despite how close he came to beating Fedor and how easily he demolished Arlovski) but I can see how great Alistair is. No one ever ragdolled Crocop the way he did before the lowblows. Not even in all his past his prime losses has Crocop looked as bad as he did against Overeem.

Alistair Overeem is the best striker Heavyweight has ever seen; plus very well rounded. He's got a great ability to take people down with throws/tosses, he has amazing GNP, he has fantastic submissions.

He's proven his takedown defense against the #1 guy he needed to prove it against.

What more is there? Oh that's right, people think the MMA boxer JDS can crack his "glass jaw"

The whole idea of him having a glass jaw btw, is 90% based on LHW fights in which he was drained and fatigued, and a fight against Sergei Kharitonov, one of the hardest punchers in MMA, back when Alistair was still fighting with the body of a LHW (that fight literally happened 7 months after his 2nd loss to shogun at lhw)

since the Sergei fight... where's his "glass jaw" been? He went to K1 for gods sake. The only person in k1 to finish him was the man considered to be the best in all of K1 and he only did it via two technical knockdowns (in which alistair was stumbling more than anything)

that's not a glass jaw...

glass jaw is someone like gabe gonzaga or arlovski who suddenly turns off like a light when the power goes out as soon as someone touches the chin.

People's idea of a glass jaw when it comes to Alistair is Tyrone Spong LIGHTLY stunning him enough to make him cover up (he wasn't even stumbling) and that's Tyrone f'n Spong, a way better striker than Junior.

but if your minds made up i guess there's nothing I can say. Your'e just going to have to see it for yourself.

Because some fluke or injury aside, I expect Alistair to walk through Bigfoot effortlessly and then dominate JDS.

Cain is the only real threat because he can throw strikes while alistair is worried about the takedown (like werdum did---but something reem won't worry about with JDS)

If we're going to go by what oddsmakers say, then it's worth noting that JDS was the betting favorite from when the fight was announced up until a month before the fight was supposed to take place.

And this was at the height if Overeem's hype. Oddsmakers still viewed JDS as the favorite despite Overeem's K1 accolades and lineal Fedor belt.

Lineal belts are cool for trivia and little else. "Beating the man who beat the man" doesn't make you the man.

 

[Appylion]

As much as I want Cain to win so people will stop underrating him, I want JDS to win just because of this fight.

I do think JDS/Overeem is potentially the coolest fight in ALL of HW history. I know that's been said a few too many times in the last few years, but this was for me just is so right on so many levels.

Mostly because they're game is both striking. So we're essentially going to get the closest thing you can get to a kickboxing match in MMA, between the two best heavyweight strikers possibly ever, and both with brutal one punch ko power.

I feel you.

 

[superslime]

From a purely striking perspective and not counting BJJ or wrestling, I think Mark Hunt could touch JDS up. Like Overeem, Hunt is also a former K1 HW champ and we have seen that his striking is still very effective. Unfortunately he'd get taken down and end up on his back like a walrus flapping about.

 

[NetGeek]

Natman... trust me though... Overeem will be the dog to either JDS or Cain. Not by a big margin... but he will be the dog.

Nailed it his eventually fight with Overeem will just establish him as the greatest heavyweight. I been a huge fan of Fedor but fighters today train at a very different level then the fighters from Pride's generation. I understand about how long Fedor remained undefeated but Natman's own post shows how hard it is to remain undefeated in the UFC.

Fighters train under great coaches and people who evolve remain relevant in MMA or will end up never carrying the belt. JDS is the next generation of MMA fighters someone who has boxing coaches, kickboxing coaches, BJJ coaches and anyone to fill the missing holes in their preparation for a specific fighter.

Your training is very different from the days of Pride you now have people who monitor your health and intensity to keep you healthy and ready for a fight. Gone are the days where you get 3 weeks notice to prepare for a fight. Fighters are very well trained today for matches unlike anything from even just 5 to 10 years ago.