Do you think JDS is really the man to beat at Heavyweight?

[ColonelAngus1]

So JDS is not the man yet because he has to beat an obvious cheater who has had a year to cheat even more and then get clean right before this fight? That's what you're bringing to the table?

 

[Jackonflame]

Reem>JDS

They have a common opponent in Werdum.

JDS absolutely destroyed Werdum with an uppercut. Made his ears wiggle.

Alister didn't have it so easy.

Now before you say that was two different Werdum's just remember when JDS beat him, Werdum was top 4 HW on a title run using his hands no less to get there.

It was JDS first UFC fight. It's free on YouTube, just watched it yesterday. Interesting to hear how Joe talks about Werdum and the new comer JDS

So no, Natman Reem is not > JDS.

I think you just get blinded by muscles or something

 

[Honestnathaniel]

He beat a murderers row to earn his shot then defended his belt twice against top comp. Yeah he's the man to beat.

 

[76Knockout]

NOTE: Scroll down to the bottom if you want the short version

Back before and during the Sylvia days, then Couture, and until a certain point of the Lesnar days; the UFC Champion was just the UFC Champion.

He was not necessarily the #1 Heavyweight or the true "guy to beat" at Heavyweight.

That was Fedor Emelianenko. The former Pride Champion, the WAMMA Champion (basically a continuation of the Pride title) and the #1 ranked Heavyweight in the world.

Then something crazy happened: Fedor lost. He lost to Fabricio Werdum. Sadly MMA always as simple as "beat the man become the man" and though it was controversial to a lot of people, Werdum didn't jump to #1 because he was too low ranked when he fought Fedor (he was either #8 or #9 when he fought Fedor)

Instead the rank of #1 was up for grabs between the winner of Brock Lesnar vs Shane Carwin and Brock Lesnar won in round 2 via tap out.

but at that point, though Brock was ranked #1, there was still a lot of controversy as to whether or not he was "the man to beat"

Belts arn't everything. Some things mean more. So while Brock was Champion, a lot of people looked at Werdum, they (oddly at the time) looked at Alistair Overeem; and Josh Barnett, and a couple of the better UFC contenders like Cain and Junior Dos Santos.

Well then the scene cleaned itself up a little bit. Cain took out Brock, Junior took out Cain. Barnett was defeated by Cormier (finally getting him out of the discussion which he had been in solely because he hadn't been defeated in such a long time)

but a combination of things created a potential new "man to beat"

First off, Alistair Overeem defeated Fabricio Werdum, thus all the people who said Fabricio should be "the man" because he was the one to beat Fedor, where now looking to Alistair

but it was more than that. A lot of people will argue that hype (real or otherwise), potential, and momentum shouldn't be taken into account nearly as much as pure wins

but the truth is, anyone who's paid attention to MMA over the years knows that hype/potential/momentum often play a very big role in the politics of MMA.

They're the reason someone like Glover Teixeira is getting offered fights with Rampage and Shogun despite only having one win in the UFC (he has two now but he only had one when those fights were first offered)

They're the reason someone like Anderson Silva got a MW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

They're the reason Brock Lesnar got a HW title shot with only one win in the UFC.

They're a big part of the reason someone like Nick Diaz was touted as potentially the man to beat GSP before even his win over Penn.

I could go on and on.

but the point is this "it factor" that I'm talking about, this combination of hype/potential/and momentum had people believing that Alistair Overeem may have already been the Best Heavyweight in the World even before the Duffee fight (where Bas Rutten said it and many others agreed) NOTE: not saying anyone said he deserved a #1 ranking. Rankings and actually being the best arn't always the same.

One of the best examples of this factor at play was the Alistair's recent fight with Werdum.
It's funny, I said earlier a belt is just a belt, and that's true, but a rank is also just a rank when people know that it's not right.

What speaks the truth in MMA more than anything? Odds.

Can they be wrong? OF COURSE! Upsets happen all the time

but... the favorite wins a lot more than the underdog does. And here's the crazy thing about Alistair Overeem vs Fabricio Werdum 2: On paper, there's almost no reason Werdum shouldn't have been a favorite
-Werdum was the seasoned HW, who had been fighting high ranking HW's his entire career while Overeem had almost exclusively been fighting cans and weak opponents since moving to HW
-Werdum was the one who JUST BEAT FEDOR in his very last fight
-and Werdum held a win over Alistair Overeem.

Think about that...

HW who's fought and beaten well ranked HW's, just beat the best HW in the world, and already his a win over his upcoming opponent vs HW who's fought only weak HW's, only has one win over a top 10 ranked HW, and lost to his upcoming opponent in the 1st match.

Who's the favorite out of those 2? Who sounds like they should be? Obviously the first guy but guess what? Alistair Overeem was a -290 favorite, in some places as high as -365.

I say again: Belts are just belts. Ranks are just ranks... but odds speak more truth than anything.

What was it the oddsmakers new that defied logic? The style of the match? Or was it the fact that something about The Reem had looked unstoppable (even if it was only against weak opponents and in another sport)

Then the Reem fights Brock and is again the favorite, only a slight favorite but this time against a man ranked in the top 3 at the time, and the Reem is the favorite.

TLDR/Getting to my point: Despite his many impressive wins, I don't think Junior Dos Santos (or Cain) can possibly be the true top heavyweight until the Reem is beaten. I think he has as much, if not more momentum going for him than JDS. I think if they were scheduled to fight that Overeem should be the favorite because he is the true man to beat at Heavyweight.

I think you have it mixed up. Reem cannot be considered #1 until HE beats JDS..

 

[Shwartz]

JDS fought against great competition in UFC and finished everyone who could be knocked out.
Overeem got Strikeforce belt and decided to go to Japan instead of defending it.
JDS finished Werdum in less than 3 minutes.
Overeem was taken the distance by Werdum.
During this year JDS TKOd Mir and is going to fight Cain.
Overeem decided to shoot himself with some unknown substance and take a year off.

JDS is the man to beat.
The only good thing about Reem getting the title shot would be the unification of linear and current HW championships. So the nonsence would finally be over.

 

[akproplayer]

Regardless of what you think, the fact is right now & whenever Overeem is unfortunate enough to face JDS he will be the underdog.

 

[JxHx**]

This story will only end after JDS kicks Overeem's ass...
...provided Roidreem doesn't get suspended again.

 

[Natman2939]

The winner of Cain/JDS will be the man to beat, and the winner of Cain/JDS vs. Reem/BF will be the real man to beat.

This is basically what I'm saying really.

I don't just view Alistair Overeem as another contender; I think he is someone who legitimately has a claim to being the best heavyweight in the world

therefore the Real man to beat will only be decided after winner of jds/cain 2 fights Overeem. If Overeem loses to Bigfoot, then JDS/Cain 2 winner automatically becomes the man because bigfoot's already been dominated by Cain and Cormier recently

 

[SuperNerd]

Triple threat match. Do it. Do it Dana.

 

[TFanatic]

JDS beat Cain, Carwin, Mir, Werdum, Nelson, and Struve.

Overeem beat Werdum, Lesnar, and.....Rogers? Duffee?

JDS is ranked #1 for a reason and when the two do fight Junior is going to beat fhat cheater down.

Absolutely this, and the Werdum fight was the opposite of impressive. Werdum, and by extension Overeem didn't gain any magical powers by beating Fedor. Don't be a child, ts.

Real world results > big muscles

 

[Natman2939]

So JDS is not the man yet because he has to beat an obvious cheater who has had a year to cheat even more and then get clean right before this fight? That's what you're bringing to the table?

Everyone keeps wanting to bring up this cheating nonsense. Earlier in the thread, I tried to "play the game" a little bit and say "hey, alistair hasn't tested positive directly before or after a fight and that's what really matters"

but honestly that's just me being politically correct.

This is the brutal truth, anyone who knows anything about steroids and how they work and how long their effects will last even once you stop taking them (meaning you could train with steroids not only long before your fight, but even before your fight is announced and still have most of the benefits by the time the fight comes. The benefits of working out with steroids can last MONTHS) knows that most fighters are probably on steroids or some type of PEDS

Until the testing in MMA is DRASTICALLY changed, I'm pretty much assuming all fighters use some type of PED and I think you're ignorant as hell if you think otherwise.

or just flat out in denial.

So no I don't care if Reem is cheating against other cheaters. Because besides someone like bj penn, I'd bet serious money everyone else is cheating too. But the way testing is set up now, it's almost impossible to get caught without some really dumb mistake.

 

[Natman2939]

They have a common opponent in Werdum.

JDS absolutely destroyed Werdum with an uppercut. Made his ears wiggle.

Alister didn't have it so easy.

Now before you say that was two different Werdum's just remember when JDS beat him, Werdum was top 4 HW on a title run using his hands no less to get there.

It was JDS first UFC fight. It's free on YouTube, just watched it yesterday. Interesting to hear how Joe talks about Werdum and the new comer JDS

So no, Natman Reem is not > JDS.

I think you just get blinded by muscles or something

It's already been proven many times that common opponents mean nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

Case in point: Georges St.Pierre, Carlos Condit, Dan Hardy

There's dozens of these examples out there

 

[ali2013champ]

So JDS is not the man yet because he has to beat an obvious cheater who has had a year to cheat even more and then get clean right before this fight? That's what you're bringing to the table?

overeem isn't cheater.

He took T just because he is old and has some illnes blocking his natural T.

Just like Sonnen,Hendo and 27 yo Todd Duffe and everyone on legal TRT

 

[TFanatic]

It's already been proven many times that common opponents mean nothing. Nothing whatsoever.

Case in point: Georges St.Pierre, Carlos Condit, Dan Hardy

There's dozens of these examples out there

So if common opponents don't matter, and how impressive you beat top competition doesn't matter, you're basically saying that Overeem is the man to beat because of some lineal magic he inherited from Fedor?

I'm actually interested in how you justify this. He has less top wins in less impressive fashion than JDS at this point.

 

[ko1]

Dos Santos has more top 10 wins at HW and is the current UFC HW champ. He is the man to beat.

 

[van1ty]

B+ thread.

The champion is the champion not because he wears a belt, but because he is the champion in the minds of the people. JDS is #1 for that reason, and it's the same reason jones was #1 before he beat shogun.

 

[jmk1502]

Jds is the man to beat IMO especially since overeem failed his tests... Any win he has now will be tainted in my eyes even though I will watch.

Overeem is the biggest threat to JDS though

I disagree. When (and if of course) JDS beats Cain, Cormier is the #1 contender. One cannot just dismiss what Cormier did to Big Foot and Josh Barnett. Big foot is top 10 and Barnett is one of the top 5 HW's of all time. The 2 reasons why Cormier hasn't gotten the respect or rating he deserves are him being a smaller HW and not fighting in the UFC (yet). He could easily beat any HW out there right now, and he's relatively new to MMA, which means his skillset is only going to get better.

 

[LSXMMA]

Mostly because they're game is both striking. So we're essentially going to get the closest thing you can get to a kickboxing match in MMA, between the two best heavyweight strikers possibly ever, and both with brutal one punch ko power.

One of those fighters has a very solid chin and the other one has one formed from porcelain.

 

[Natman2939]

So if common opponents don't matter, and how impressive you beat top competition doesn't matter, you're basically saying that Overeem is the man to beat because of some lineal magic he inherited from Fedor?

I'm actually interested in how you justify this. He has less top wins in less impressive fashion than JDS at this point.

Common opponents definitely don't matter because styles make fights. Like I said, that's just been proven over and over again.

Now I never said how impressive you beat top competition doesn't matter.

If you're really interested to know more of my reasoning, I'd suggest you read the full OP. I can't think of much I can say to your reply that I didn't already say in the OP.

I acknowledge that JDS has beaten more people at HW and done more; but

A: the lineal thing does matter. It's not magic, it's an unofficial title. Beating Fedor was more important than winning the UFC title from Tim Sylvia... or Randy Couture or Brock Lesnar (or even Cain Velasquez or at this point Junior Dos Santos) beating Fedor was the most important thing that has ever been done in the history of heavyweight MMA.

and by beating Fedor, the man that beat him did take on his lineal title

and The Reem did beat the man that beat the man

but as I explained in the OP, that's not the main reason. The main reason is simply how good he seems to be. (see: the part of the OP about Hype/Potential/Momentum) it's the same reason Glover is a big favorite over Rampage Jackson despite never having fought anyone close to Rampage's level.

Oddmakers and fans somehow knew that Overeem was almost certainly going to beat Werdum.

In a "possible future fight" oddsmakers even had Overeem favored to beat Fedor BEFORE Fedor lost to Werdum.

Why is that? Because despite not completely proving it yet with a bunch of top wins, people can just tell how good he is. (Of course the grand prix and demolishing brett rogers after he nearly beat fedor helped a lot too)

I know people will say this isn't K1 and people will discredit Brett Rogers (despite how close he came to beating Fedor and how easily he demolished Arlovski) but I can see how great Alistair is. No one ever ragdolled Crocop the way he did before the lowblows. Not even in all his past his prime losses has Crocop looked as bad as he did against Overeem.

Alistair Overeem is the best striker Heavyweight has ever seen; plus very well rounded. He's got a great ability to take people down with throws/tosses, he has amazing GNP, he has fantastic submissions.

He's proven his takedown defense against the #1 guy he needed to prove it against.

What more is there? Oh that's right, people think the MMA boxer JDS can crack his "glass jaw"

The whole idea of him having a glass jaw btw, is 90% based on LHW fights in which he was drained and fatigued, and a fight against Sergei Kharitonov, one of the hardest punchers in MMA, back when Alistair was still fighting with the body of a LHW (that fight literally happened 7 months after his 2nd loss to shogun at lhw)

since the Sergei fight... where's his "glass jaw" been? He went to K1 for gods sake. The only person in k1 to finish him was the man considered to be the best in all of K1 and he only did it via two technical knockdowns (in which alistair was stumbling more than anything)

that's not a glass jaw...

glass jaw is someone like gabe gonzaga or arlovski who suddenly turns off like a light when the power goes out as soon as someone touches the chin.

People's idea of a glass jaw when it comes to Alistair is Tyrone Spong LIGHTLY stunning him enough to make him cover up (he wasn't even stumbling) and that's Tyrone f'n Spong, a way better striker than Junior.

but if your minds made up i guess there's nothing I can say. Your'e just going to have to see it for yourself.

Because some fluke or injury aside, I expect Alistair to walk through Bigfoot effortlessly and then dominate JDS.

Cain is the only real threat because he can throw strikes while alistair is worried about the takedown (like werdum did---but something reem won't worry about with JDS)

 

[jmk1502]

JDS beat Cain, Carwin, Mir, Werdum, Nelson, and Struve.

Overeem beat Werdum, Lesnar, and.....Rogers? Duffee?

JDS is ranked #1 for a reason and when the two do fight Junior is going to beat fhat cheater down.

I agree with the fac that JDS should be ranked #1 and has a better resume than Overeem; I don't agree that beating Carwin, Mir, or Struve is anything special. Those guys are all classic examples of average guys getting extra points for fighting in the UFC. I was dissapointed when Cormier didn't get to expose Mir (again) for the journeyman gatekeeper he (Mir) is.