Do you think constantly talking about racism is good for race relations?

[Cold Front]

In our country, issues are resolved two ways. Either we talk about it or if society doesn't eventually come to a resolution, we fight about it. Dishonest talk ultimately fails because it is exposed as dishonest and those who cling to the dishonesty are relegated to the margins.

I think you're buying into another fairy tale.

Sometimes the best thing to do - for both individuals and societies - is to tell a little white lie and move on with your life.

Communication is often unequal. Someone understands what is being said and someone else doesn't. Race is a hugely fraught and complex topic that the vast majority of people don't see clearly and objectively. So talking more about the topic in a political context is likely to stir up more controversy than illumination.

As a free society, we can and should be dealing with our problems up front, and talking about them all the time. Otherwise, those problems will fester and worsen. Racism between whites/nonwhites has always been a huge problem in this country. It is still a huge problem in this country, though our national discourse on the issue from founding til now has made considerable progress.

I'm not for making these topics illegal to discuss, but the question was framed as to whether we as a society get any social good from promoting a political discussion on race. Clearly we do not. Politicians on both the right and the left don't know how to frame these questions correctly.

We made good progress on race when the national discussion was framed as a simple one of basic civil rights. But now the national discussion is far more complex, and the people involved in it aren't wearing white and black hats, anymore.

 

[Cold Front]

Are you saying this specifically for race or in general? Disability benefits accepts the idea that the disabled don't have the same qualities and need assistance in order to survive compared to a healthy person.

Are you calling an entire race of people disabled and unhealthy? (You seem to also be presuming that society is a good MD for curing whatever ails this race.)

Political equality is established but not always followed/enforced within the private sector.

There are a multitude of legal remedies for this, to the degree the problem even exists anymore, which I don't believe it does.

You may have equal rights to vote or equal citizenship but it doesn't guarantee you will vote for a candidate that moves forward with your ideas or that you will be treated the same applying for a loan in the private sector.

To the degree there are problems in lending to minorities, the problems are entirely of too much permissiveness.

For example, what did you think of George W. Bush's minority housing program, given the subsequent housing bubble? : http://realtytimes.com/todaysheadlines1/item/16142-20020624_bushplan

Bush pretty much argued that down payments were oppressive : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNqQx7sjoS8

 

[Cold Front]

How do we make links here?

 

[ncordless]

You are taking this to the absurd conclusion. The main problem is the hyper-focus on race, especially in the media. What exactly is productive about constantly turning everything into a sensationalized race-baiting issue?

When people are legitimately being discriminated and oppressed because of their skin color or cultural background then obviously those issues need to be discussed and dealt with.

As Morgan Freeman pointed out in the video I posted, we need to start addressing each other as individual human beings instead of constantly focusing on race. He did not say we should simply ignore everything racial and it will just go away.

Talking about things only goes so far. Eventually, action must be taken. We don't need the key, we'll break in.

Free speech is messy. It can be incredibly annoying. But I think it is necessary.

You say when people are legitimately being oppressed because of their skin color or cultural background, then we should obviously talk about it. My response to that is that people ARE being oppressed because of their skin color and cultural background. Current inequities between whites and non-whites are at least partially linked to past and current oppression. Therefore we should keep talking about it. Instead of silence, what we should be doing is calling out bad ideas for what they are, instead of stopping. That's how hearts and minds change.

 

[ncordless]

I think you're buying into another fairy tale.

Sometimes the best thing to do - for both individuals and societies - is to tell a little white lie and move on with your life.

Communication is often unequal. Someone understands what is being said and someone else doesn't. Race is a hugely fraught and complex topic that the vast majority of people don't see clearly and objectively. So talking more about the topic in a political context is likely to stir up more controversy than illumination.



I'm not for making these topics illegal to discuss, but the question was framed as to whether we as a society get any social good from promoting a political discussion on race. Clearly we do not. Politicians on both the right and the left don't know how to frame these questions correctly.

We made good progress on race when the national discussion was framed as a simple one of basic civil rights. But now the national discussion is far more complex, and the people involved in it aren't wearing white and black hats, anymore.

I find it odd that you accuse others of buying into a fairy tale, and then immediately ask that we accept lies in order to make our selves feel better. Why should we feel better about it? It's a problem, and we shouldn't feel better until it is resolved, not lie to ourselves by saying it isn't a problem.

I also disagree that "clearly we do not" benefit from a constant political discussion about race. It might not be pleasant, but I don't see where it is clearly proven that the continued discussion is not productive. In the last 20 years, we've seen public opinion become much more varied, and things are not black and white anymore. To me, that's a good thing, and shows maturation of public opinion.

 

[Cold Front]

Free speech is messy. It can be incredibly annoying. But I think it is necessary.

I don't disagree. But the question is not whether to make speech about race illegal. I'm not for making any political speech illegal.

It's whether our political leaders should be giving more speeches about race, attending more seminars about race, holding more subcommittee meetings about race. And I think that political or social focus would be unhealthy.

You say when people are legitimately being oppressed because of their skin color or cultural background, then we should obviously talk about it. My response to that is that people ARE being oppressed because of their skin color and cultural background. Current inequities between whites and non-whites are at least partially linked to past and current oppression. Therefore we should keep talking about it. Instead of silence, what we should be doing is calling out bad ideas for what they are, instead of stopping. That's how hearts and minds change.

I disagree entirely. I think blacks in America are the luckiest black people in the world, and they would be entirely incapable of living anywhere to the same degree as they do now anywhere else in the world.

 

[ncordless]

I don't disagree. But the question is not whether to make speech about race illegal. I'm not for making any political speech illegal.

It's whether our political leaders should be giving more speeches about race, attending more seminars about race, holding more subcommittee meetings about race. And I think that political or social focus would be unhealthy.



I disagree entirely. I think blacks in America are the luckiest black people in the world, and they would be entirely incapable of living anywhere to the same degree as they do now anywhere else in the world.

How does black americans being better off than blacks in africa prove that oppression is not a problem? Is it your opinion that there was no oppression in Africa? That blacks are just inherently inferior and therefore their inferior place in American society is just a consequence of that?

 

[Cold Front]

I find it odd that you accuse others of buying into a fairy tale, and then immediately ask that we accept lies in order to make our selves feel better.

There's nothing inconsistent about that. I believe every society needs myths to operate effectively, and I'm wiling to tolerate these white lies at a social level even if I don't believe them.

For example, its pretty clear there are cognitive differences between the races. Does our society need to publicize that fact? No. But policymakers ought to be aware of these differences when crafting educational policies.

Why should we feel better about it? It's a problem, and we shouldn't feel better until it is resolved, not lie to ourselves by saying it isn't a problem.

if your wife has a mole on her otherwise pretty face that detracts from her appearance, is it a good policy to be honest about it when you can't afford the surgery to get it removed?

No, of course not. Instead, you pretend she's beautiful, anyway, which she would be without that mole. What you don't want to do is talk constantly about the mole.

Similarly with racial topics, you can see a problem and still not see a realistic solution.

 

[Possum Jenkins]

Cold Front's posts are the exact reason why racism needs to be continued to be discussed and analyzed.

A LOT of people are astonishingly off about race. The whole 'blacks would have had it worse in Africa' line is so idiotic it's almost hard to believe people really use it as an argument.

But they do.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Not at all

 

[Cold Front]

How does black americans being better off than blacks in africa prove that oppression is not a problem? Is it your opinion that there was no oppression in Africa?

I didn't just say back in Africa. I said everywhere. Caribbean islands. Brazil. France. Great Britain (although the immigration of many smart Nigerians is quickly changing that).

The average income of Black Americans is far higher than most whites in Eastern Europe, but there is no evidence they could achieve these socioeconomic outcomes by themselves.

As for "no oppression," that's a pretty high bar for modern achievement when you consider that most other talented minority groups endured high levels of oppression and still managed to rise.

That blacks are just inherently inferior and therefore their inferior place in American society is just a consequence of that?

Inferior is an imprecise word. I think it's clear that their IQs are lower, and that part of this difference is genetic, and that this fact is reflected in all kinds of socioeconomic outcomes everywhere in the world.

 

[Cold Front]

Cold Front's posts are the exact reason why racism needs to be continued to be discussed and analyzed.

A LOT of people are astonishingly off about race. The whole 'blacks would have had it worse in Africa' line is so idiotic it's almost hard to believe people really use it as an argument.

But they do.

What's so idiotic about that argument? Africa is huge continent filled with a diverse range of sub-Saharan peoples who make up about forty countries with very different histories. And in none of them do we find a single people who have developed anything close to a successful modern state.

 

[TheComebackKid]

Cold Front's posts are the exact reason why racism needs to be continued to be discussed and analyzed.

A LOT of people are astonishingly off about race. The whole 'blacks would have had it worse in Africa' line is so idiotic it's almost hard to believe people really use it as an argument.

But they do.

Depends. Africans were enslaving other Africans at the same time Americans were. That not excusing the vile, disgusting american slave traders for slave trading tho, let's be clear. Just saying, Africa wasn't a utopia either.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Depends. Africans were enslaving other Africans at the same time Americans were. That not excusing the vile, disgusting american slave traders for slave trading tho, let's be clear. Just saying, Africa wasn't a utopia either.

A lot of people seem to forget that all groups of people throughout history have at some point treated each other like shit. People even treat members of their own ethnicity like shit. Its what people do, they do horrible things to each other and most likely will continue do to horrible shit to each other into the future.

The best we can do is try to deter it as much as possible, but people are insane if they think things like racism, sexism, and discrimination will ever be completely eliminated.

The bible is correct to state that man is fallen. In fact many religions give incredible insight into the corrupt tendencies that dwell within human beings.

 

[Ayin]

Cold Front's posts are the exact reason why racism needs to be continued to be discussed and analyzed.

I didn't have anything that I really felt needed to be said until here, but I have to agree with you.

For example, its pretty clear there are cognitive differences between the races. Does our society need to publicize that fact? No. But policymakers ought to be aware of these differences when crafting educational policies.

Promoting the government secretly attempting to treat entire groups of people differently due to perceived differences of race seems like the exact thing that needs to be exposed/talked about.

 

[Cold Front]

Slavery existed nearly everywhere before it was institutionalized along racial lines in the United States. It existed in classical Greece, for example, and in classical Rome. The word slave is derived from the word for "Slav" because so many Slavic peoples were slaves under both the early Europeans and the Ottomans

 

[Cold Front]

Promoting the government secretly attempting to treat entire groups of people differently due to perceived differences of race seems like the exact thing that needs to be exposed/talked about.

You don't have to treat people differently. You treat them the same. But you live comfortably with the different outcomes.

And I wouldn't do it secretly. I just wouldn't publicize elite indifference to things like this:

 

[ncordless]

And this is why race still needs to be discussed.

I think continuing inequality is due to past and present oppresion. Cod Front thinks the continuing inequality is due to a natural inferiority of blacks. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. Until we figure out which one of us is wrong, we can't figure out a solution because we don't know what the problem is.

But ignoring it and pretending inequality doesn't exist doesn't solve anything except make us feel better in the same way an ostrich feels better about the world when it sticks its head in the sand.

 

[ncordless]

A lot of people seem to forget that all groups of people throughout history have at some point treated each other like shit. People even treat members of their own ethnicity like shit. Its what people do, they do horrible things to each other and most likely will continue do to horrible shit to each other into the future.

The best we can do is try to deter it as much as possible, but people are insane if they think things like racism, sexism, and discrimination will ever be completely eliminated.

The bible is correct to state that man is fallen. In fact many religions give incredible insight into the corrupt tendencies that dwell within human beings.

Fallen from where? Where we really once in some state of grace and have fallen from it? Or have we always been that way and gotten better about it over time?

And I don't think we will ever get to a point where people being shitty to each other is eliminated. But I do think we can and have gotten much better than we used to be, and the reason we have is because we confront the problem instead of ignoring it. Insofar as it is still a problem, then we should continue to try to get better about it, which, unlikely as it sounds, includes letting people on both sides of the topic say stupid shit about it so that the stupid shit is eventually exposed as stupid shit and falls into the dustbin of history.

 

[Cold Front]

And this is why race still needs to be discussed.

I think continuing inequality is due to past and present oppresion. Cod Front thinks the continuing inequality is due to a natural inferiority of blacks. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. Until we figure out which one of us is wrong, we can't figure out a solution because we don't know what the problem is.

Maybe there are no solutions.

A little-known fact is that even though a great number of heritable behaviors have partial environmental causes, we still have no idea what they are.

They most certainly are not the simple explanations put forward by street-corner vulgarians who claim we need to put more books in African-American homes and other such idiotic but superficially plausible explanations for why blacks lag behind.

But ignoring it and pretending inequality doesn't exist doesn't solve anything except make us feel better in the same way an ostrich feels better about the world when it sticks its head in the sand.

Why? Is anyone starving in America because of inequality? You're more likely to be obese if you're in poverty than if you're wealthy. Why is there any pressing need to deal with racial inequality, so long as talented people of all races can rise to their proper level?