Do you think constantly talking about racism is good for race relations?

[Ayin]

I'd disagree with a variety of examples of things there's likely never a time for, but there's probably biblical examples of God commanding just that to be done (likely to unbelievers).

 

[ncordless]

Fair enough, you don't have to buy into the Christian concept of fallen man, but the larger and more important point most religions are making is that people have a terrible capacity to make one another suffer.

I don't believe there has been a linear progression when it comes to morality. I'm not even sure how one would objectively measure if things are better or worse now? I believe the flow of life is cyclical not linear. To give a more substantial example I will quote the wisdom Ecclesiastes from the bible:


There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens:

Spoiler

A time to give birth and a time to die;
A time to plant and a time to uproot what is planted.

A time to kill and a time to heal;
A time to tear down and a time to build up.

A time to weep and a time to laugh;
A time to mourn and a time to dance.

A time to throw stones and a time to gather stones;
A time to embrace and a time to shun embracing.

A time to search and a time to give up as lost;
A time to keep and a time to throw away.

A time to tear apart and a time to sew together;
A time to be silent and a time to speak.

A time to love and a time to hate;
A time for war and a time for peace.

-Ecclesiastes 3:1-8

I don't think there has been a linear progression of morality. But I do think that, over time, once humanity recognizes a problem and confronts it, the problem tends to get better. For instance, slavery kept getting worse and worse until we decided that it was wrong. Since that time, while slavery still exists and is a problem, it is less of a problem than it has been in the past.

I also don't think things are cyclical. Cyclicalism is just another attempt to make sense of existence by ascribing some sort of rational pattern to it. It's nice to think about, like heaven or karma, but ultimately fails for much the same reasons.

 

[KOQ24]

of course,it brings the racists out in broad daylight,like cold front itt

 

[panamaican]

If I say the hair on your female in your avatar is red, am I being descriptive?

Yes. You'd be wrong but it's still descriptive.

Because if most whites don't share in this so-called privilege, then it's not objective and hence not descriptive. Your concept is ideologically-based and not factually-based. And when someone puts forward an ideology like this, they are doing so either for proscriptive reasons or because they're stupid.

This simply repeats the mistakes of the last post.

No, I'm arguing with the right person.

No, you're still using the words wrong.

 

[Cold Front]

Yes. You'd be wrong but it's still descriptive.

No, I'm not being descriptive; I'm being disingenuous. I'm describing an objective quality inaccurately.

It's not clear why anyone would do this for hair color, but it is clear why they would do it for something like "white privilege." They are seeking to shape the political debate, not describe reality.

 

[panamaican]

No, I'm not being descriptive; I'm being disingenuous. I'm describing an objective quality inaccurately.

It's not clear why anyone would do this for hair color, but it is clear why they would do it for something like "white privilege." They are seeking to shape the political debate, not describe reality.

Again - you are misusing these words.

You are describing thus being descriptive. It doesn't matter that you are also inaccurate.

You're not being disingenuous unless you're intentionally being wrong. I can't assume that because you might be making an honest mistake (such as you've always called that color red and no one ever corrected you before) or your computer might need it's screen reset. Or any number of things. If I assumed you were being disingenuous, that would be presumptive of me.

That's the whole problem with our little conversation. You're using words that have limited meanings in very broad fashions.

 

[Cold Front]

You are describing, being descriptive. It doesn't matter that you are also inaccurate.

Yes, it does. At the heart of any lie is the key to the liar's psychology. What he's after. What he wants.

That's far more important than what he inaccurately describes.

You're not being disingenuous unless you're intentionally being wrong. I can't assume that because you might be making an honest mistake (such as you've always called that color red and no one ever corrected you before) or your computer might need it's screen reset. Or any number of things.

Of course there can be honest mistakes made in any description, just as anyone can easily be a dupe to an ideology.

But if we remove stupidity from the equation, we're left with dishonesty. We're left with people who are trying to make the world form to their preconceptions. In that world, red becomes black, and whites in poverty have "privilege" based on their race, while blacks who use affirmative action do not.

That's the whole problem with our little conversation. You're using words that have limited meanings in very broad fashions.

There's nothing limited about the words we're using.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

I don't think there has been a linear progression of morality. But I do think that, over time, once humanity recognizes a problem and confronts it, the problem tends to get better. For instance, slavery kept getting worse and worse until we decided that it was wrong. Since that time, while slavery still exists and is a problem, it is less of a problem than it has been in the past.

I also don't think things are cyclical. Cyclicalism is just another attempt to make sense of existence by ascribing some sort of rational pattern to it. It's nice to think about, like heaven or karma, but ultimately fails for much the same reasons.

There are plenty of cycles that play out in nature. There are seasons, the water cycle, the carbon cycle, the rock cycle, the cycle of birth and death... and so on.

I don't think its irrational to think that events in human society play out in cycles as well. The economy is subject to up and down trends, there are times of war and times of peace, emphasis on certain values change, nations rise and fall.

There is no guarantee that past practices that were considered forbidden will once again rear their ugly heads. Torture was considered illegal in the U.S. but its made a comeback.

I'm not so optimistic when it comes to the influence of education and dialogue in changing people's racist views. It is quite clear that specific things like murder and rape are considered immoral in western society and yet they still happen every single day.

I'm not saying efforts shouldn't be made to discourage racism, I just think educational efforts are somewhat limited.

 

[ocfightfan]

The problem is that race and racism has become a giant shakedown which benefits a handful of elites and keeps a majority of minorities in a perpetual state of infancy and dependency. The ideology of anti-racism is currently doing more to hold back minorities than actual racism.

 

[ncordless]

There are plenty of cycles that play out in nature. There are seasons, the water cycle, the carbon cycle, the rock cycle, the cycle of birth and death... and so on.

Sure, you see it that way. But really all those things will end, too and therefore it isn't really cyclical as much as a temporary repetition. We have not always been here spinning around the sun, and there will come a day when we aren't spinning around the Sun. The pattern exists because you can only see a small part. Existence is not cyclical. It starts and it stops.

I don't think its irrational to think that events in human society play out in cycles as well. The economy is subject to up and down trends, there are times of war and times of peace, emphasis on certain values change, nations rise and fall.

I feel like you are confusing change with cycle here. Change is constant. Nothing ever stays the same from one instant to the next. What's more, once an instant is gone it will never come back. Similar things might happen, Things might go up, and they might go down, but they might not either. Also, I'd not that some of your examples here are not cycles. The economy has really only risen. Sure it drops for a bit once in a while, but over the long term it only goes up. Might it start going down some day? Sure, but that is only change and not a cycle. Nations do rise and fall, but not all nations rise, not all nations fall, and once they fall, they don't necessariily rise again as if it were a cycle.

There is no guarantee that past practices that were considered forbidden will once again rear their ugly heads. Torture was considered illegal in the U.S. but its made a comeback.

Sure. Things change. Doesn't mean there is a cycle to it. Cyclsism is like astrology. It seeks to give reason to the incomprehensible by telling us that we've been here before and this too shall pass. But really, we haven't. We may have been in something similar, but it cannot be the same.

I'm not so optimistic when it comes to the influence of education and dialogue in changing people's racist views. It is quite clear that specific things like murder and rape are considered immoral in western society and yet they still happen every single day.

Of course. And we will never get completely rid of slavery either. Or racism. Or smoking in public. Elimination is too high a bar.

But it is undeniable that education and dialogue HAVE changed people's racist views, especially over the last 50 years.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Spoiler

Sure, you see it that way. But really all those things will end, too and therefore it isn't really cyclical as much as a temporary repetition. We have not always been here spinning around the sun, and there will come a day when we aren't spinning around the Sun. The pattern exists because you can only see a small part. Existence is not cyclical. It starts and it stops.

I feel like you are confusing change with cycle here. Change is constant. Nothing ever stays the same from one instant to the next. What's more, once an instant is gone it will never come back. Similar things might happen, Things might go up, and they might go down, but they might not either. Also, I'd not that some of your examples here are not cycles. The economy has really only risen. Sure it drops for a bit once in a while, but over the long term it only goes up. Might it start going down some day? Sure, but that is only change and not a cycle. Nations do rise and fall, but not all nations rise, not all nations fall, and once they fall, they don't necessariily rise again as if it were a cycle.

Spoiler

Sure. Things change. Doesn't mean there is a cycle to it. Cyclsism is like astrology. It seeks to give reason to the incomprehensible by telling us that we've been here before and this too shall pass. But really, we haven't. We may have been in something similar, but it cannot be the same.

Of course. And we will never get completely rid of slavery either. Or racism. Or smoking in public. Elimination is too high a bar.

But it is undeniable that education and dialogue HAVE changed people's racist views, especially over the last 50 years.

Regarding change, I can't argue with what you said. I'll admit that I confused cyclical with change.

I will also concede that you are correct that people's racist views have changed because of education and dialogue. The best evidence to indicate this is the incredible backlash people receive when they are outed as racists.

 

[ncordless]

Regarding change, I can't argue with what you said. I'll admit that I confused cyclical with change.

I will also concede that you are correct that people's racist views have changed because of education and dialogue. The best evidence to indicate this is the incredible backlash people receive when they are outed as racists.

Sweet. And so what I argue about conversation about race is that it should be constant, and we should be, and try to convince others to be, more critical about the conversation. Stupid shit can and should be declared to be stupid shit. We will never all agree about what the stupid shit is, but enough of us will eventually agree with the most important things to marginalize the stupid shit.

Take the White Privilege thing. Some believe the teachings of Critical Race Theory to be truth, and some do not. More likely, there is a little bit of both. So we should challenge it, and it should challenge us back, and over time we should be strong enough to concede the right point even if we were advocating the opposite, and over the course of time our ideas of what is truth will be all the stronger for it.

 

[Devout Pessimist]

Sweet. And so what I argue about conversation about race is that it should be constant, and we should be, and try to convince others to be, more critical about the conversation. Stupid shit can and should be declared to be stupid shit. We will never all agree about what the stupid shit is, but enough of us will eventually agree with the most important things to marginalize the stupid shit.

Take the White Privilege thing. Some believe the teachings of Critical Race Theory to be truth, and some do not. More likely, there is a little bit of both. So we should challenge it, and it should challenge us back, and over time we should be strong enough to concede the right point even if we were advocating the opposite, and over the course of time our ideas of what is truth will be all the stronger for it.

 

[kahiljabroni]

I think ur confusing inequality with oppression. Where is this oppression?

Ill ask again?

 

[ncordless]

I think ur confusing inequality with oppression. Where is this oppression?

The past oppression is from slavery, exclusionary laws, jim crow, lynchings, discriminatory housing policies, whites only lunch counters, separate but equal, etc.

The current oppression stems from the past in some ways, and is in some ways new. Most people don't necessarily intend to oppress on an individual level anymore, but the systems and conditions left in place from past oppression has not been remedied.

For instance most neighborhoods are still de facto segregated. Schools are de facto segregated. In my town, there are white schools, and there are minority schools. Why? Not because we enforce segregation. It is because all the whites moved to neighborhoods that had racial restrictive covenants. Now, those covenants have been removed, but the damage is still done because the housing prices of the minority neighborhood with the minority school isn't near as valuable as the white neighborhood with the white schools. And the system perpetuates because, since the white schools get more money than the minority schools because the white houses are worth more than the minority houses, so the minority kids, except for a few high achievers, will get a worse education, and that leads to less income, and that leads to only being able to afford a house in the minority neighborhood. Rinse and repeat. If there is such a thing as white privilege, it is at least this: if you are white, you are more likely to get a good education than a non-white. That's quite a privilege, if you think about it.

 

[CableandThanos]

The sad thing is, I think what we have right now, will be the best racial acceptance we will ever have. I think the product of the civil rights era and all that hard work has stalled out. This is probably the best it will ever be.

One reason I can say is because I know a lot of white people are starting to get sick of all the racial shit getting talked about and blown out of proportion. It truly does hurt the real times of real racism and the institutional and societal racism that still does exist to a certain degree. Crying wolf long enough and No one gives a shit the times that you are actually crying for good reason. I'm not saying that is right, I am just saying that is how society views it. I know another part of whites giving up or caring less, is the fact that black culture society seems to shoot itself in the foot sometimes/often. I have heard many times from white people who supported the rights movement and even helped in it, say-- THIS IS WHAT I WAS HELPING TO FIGHT FOR? For people sagging their pants, people singing degrading music, and then women singing right along to it, high teen pregnancy rates (although I know they have been dropping), and people butchering the english language. I stood along side the blacks to help them be able to get them into college and better schools, and now their culture (part of) makes fun of other black kids trying to get an education, by saying the are acting white? This isn't the shit I marched for.

Now again, I'm not saying that mindset is right, I'm just saying, you spend your entire life trying to help and marching and see you a decent sized portion just throwing that shit away.

From a black perspective, a lot of the CR movement people are dying off. The young kids of today just don't seem to wanna carry the flame. Also there just seems to be an inherent distrust about whites and the system in general. This is coming from my own observation, no reasearch. I spent most of my life in a 70% black city, go to 90% black schools, working with and right along side 100's of blacks (except when I was in the military). Over almost 20 years of talking with black men and women, in every level of education, that is the feeling I get from a good portion of them. I am not trying to speak for the black community, nor am I saying that my view is the view of everyone else. But after having hundreds of social/political talks and debates over the years, that is just the feeling I get. I hear, we like yal but we only trust you to a certain extent.--as an aside, I am not saying that maybe whites don't think this way either.

I just think between white exhaustation and black mistrust of the system, things may not get markedly better.

 

[Cubo de Sangre]

I just think between white exhaustation and black mistrust of the system, things may not get markedly better.

With distrust all around I agree.

 

[5H3RD0G]

I think you have to face the problem in order to solve it. There are many ways to handle it like a pro or a ho. I prefer handling it like adults with conversation and dialect involved rather than Rambo. :icon_lol:

 

[1neeto]

Racism will be alive and well as long as we have people like Al Sharpton advertising it. That video of Morgan Freeman is dead on. Just stop it, stop talking about it.

 

[kahiljabroni]

The past oppression is from slavery, exclusionary laws, jim crow, lynchings, discriminatory housing policies, whites only lunch counters, separate but equal, etc.

The current oppression stems from the past in some ways, and is in some ways new. Most people don't necessarily intend to oppress on an individual level anymore, but the systems and conditions left in place from past oppression has not been remedied.

For instance most neighborhoods are still de facto segregated. Schools are de facto segregated. In my town, there are white schools, and there are minority schools. Why? Not because we enforce segregation. It is because all the whites moved to neighborhoods that had racial restrictive covenants. Now, those covenants have been removed, but the damage is still done because the housing prices of the minority neighborhood with the minority school isn't near as valuable as the white neighborhood with the white schools. And the system perpetuates because, since the white schools get more money than the minority schools because the white houses are worth more than the minority houses, so the minority kids, except for a few high achievers, will get a worse education, and that leads to less income, and that leads to only being able to afford a house in the minority neighborhood. Rinse and repeat. If there is such a thing as white privilege, it is at least this: if you are white, you are more likely to get a good education than a non-white. That's quite a privilege, if you think about it.

Yeah I took sociology 101 too and I wasn't buying it then either. What you described to me is economic segregation and nothing more and it excludes people of all colors. If you want to escape your class society affords u every opportunity to do so thru a free education but its only parents that can hold their kids responsible. And its not a fancy pool or athletic facility that make an education..its the commitment to applying yourself.

And I really don't buy into the old oppression of slavery/jim crow some how spilling over anymore than I buy into the long island medium. Its nothing but an excuse and I find it insulting to those who actually suffered those attrocities, and to the intelligence of those who didn't. All those who suffered through it wanted was to be treated fairly like any other human being..they fought for the opportunities that blacks have today and I can't imagine they woukd be happy to see blacks squandering those opportunities in the name of the oppression they endured.

From jim crow to a black president in 50 years..just think about that in the context of world history...id say we've done pretty well as a society