Do You Have A Staple Supplement?

[Rjkd12]

Assuming you read the 12 threads, I have 12 legs to stand on plus many more real world results. Plus, you have a private message.

take care

Like I said, case studies do not mean anything to me unless they are my own (and then not much). I can give people sugar pills and have them talk about amazing changes just from the placbo effect. There have been many studies documenting this. I will be swayed by a peer reviewed double blind study or something similar.

Just out of curiousity, do you have any negative reviews there? If you are giving a representative sample, i would assume at least one person was unhappy, even if the supplement is that amazing.

I have that email address and plan on using it to get a paper copy of the studies. Once those are in hand, I think many questions will be answered.

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Read the threads and in the threads there are non-responders. The supplement is not a miracle drug nor does it work 100% percent of the time. Creatine is great for some and others are non-responders. I am not claiming its 100% effective 100% of the time.

Case studies if unbiased is better then science. Science only sells products to a minute percentage of consumer population. Commercials for FDA approved drugs like cialis, levitra, and the various cholesterol lowering drugs all take a laymen approach to advertising.

Placebo effect is temporary. Case studies do not mean anything unless they are your own and then not much. Having a positive experience with a supplement does not convince you of its effectiveness? Your a man that will never be convinced.

 

[Rjkd12]

Read the threads and in the threads there are non-responders. The supplement is not a miracle drug nor does it work 100% percent of the time. Creatine is great for some and others are non-responders. I am not claiming its 100% effective 100% of the time.

Case studies if unbiased is better then science. Science only sells products to a minute percentage of consumer population. Commercials for FDA approved drugs like cialis, levitra, and the various cholesterol lowering drugs all take a laymen approach to advertising.

Placebo effect is temporary. Case studies do not mean anything unless they are your own and then not much. Having a positive experience with a supplement does not convince you of its effectiveness? Your a man that will never be convinced.

People are biased no matter what. That is why a good study uses a placebo or control to try and limit the amount. Nobody is above placebo, hence why the scientists also do not know who is getting placebo and who isn't (a double blind study) so they are not biased and unknowingly affect data when collecting it.

Those commercial FDA drugs originally were done with a double blind scientific study. After that showed they would help, they then were advertised to the public. You are advertising to the public before getting enough data to show it works, in essence, ass backwards. You did not see levitra on the market with shoddy science (from uzbekistan in the late 1950's) stating that soon it will try to get some data to back it up.

Lastly, my own good experiences are also biased. I have been under the placebo influence and am very capable of it. For the longest time I took melatonin and it worked wonders for me. I never recommended it to many people as I didn't know if it was placebo or not. I later looked it up and knew it was a good supplement and it worked.

I emailed your friend and asked him for the studies. I"ll update next time I hear from him.

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

Man this whole thread is absurd.

Almost as absurd as this description of that other company who filed for that patent.

"Cissus quadrangularis is derived from the plant cissus quadrangularis linn. According to a study, this androgenic phytosteroid has been shown to produce positive nitrogen balance increase in the plasma protein content and increase body weight as well as increase the total weight of the testes in animals. The study suggests it acts as an androgenic hormone and is more potent than methandrostenolone (Dianabol or Durabolin)."

Have any of you customers reported increased weight of the testes?

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Man this whole thread is absurd.

Almost as absurd as this description of that other company who filed for that patent.

"Cissus quadrangularis is derived from the plant cissus quadrangularis linn. According to a study, this androgenic phytosteroid has been shown to produce positive nitrogen balance increase in the plasma protein content and increase body weight as well as increase the total weight of the testes in animals. The study suggests it acts as an androgenic hormone and is more potent than methandrostenolone (Dianabol or Durabolin)."

Have any of you customers reported increased weight of the testes?

Last I checked mine weighed the same

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Those commercial FDA drugs originally were done with a double blind scientific study. After that showed they would help, they then were advertised to the public. You are advertising to the public before getting enough data to show it works, in essence, ass backwards. You did not see levitra on the market with shoddy science (from uzbekistan in the late 1950's) stating that soon it will try to get some data to back it up. .

They forgot to include viagra caused blindness and Fen Phen caused death both have double blind sceintific studies. When the supplement industry is controlled by the FDA it will be a sad day for Americans.

Lastly, my own good experiences are also biased. I have been under the placebo influence and am very capable of it. For the longest time I took melatonin and it worked wonders for me. I never recommended it to many people as I didn't know if it was placebo or not. I later looked it up and knew it was a good supplement and it worked.

I emailed your friend and asked him for the studies. I"ll update next time I hear from him.

I quess your not that conservative after all because reccomending a hormone that can disrupt natural patterns and even worsen condition in some patients. Did you know that Elevated melatonin levels might contribute to the pathogenesis of nocturnal asthma.

Did you know that supplementing with exogenous melatonin halts natural production. Reccomending melatonin is like advocating steroids. I see a bit of hypocracy in your views after your melatonin statement.



take care

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Bottom Line: This human hormone may help promote sleep, but the evidence is still not definite. The other claims are unproven. No serious side effects have been reported, but long-term effects are unknown. Hormones are powerful substances and can produce unexpected results, so we don't recommend melatonin.

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsMelatonin.php

I quess am not the only one that knows that.

We are talking about melatonin one of the most questionable supplements on the market. Melatonin fits into your 95% category of Rjkd12 approved supplements. Cortisol inhibits Melatonin release so taking more melatonin will eventually lead to over production of cortisol.

 

[Rjkd12]

Bottom Line: This human hormone may help promote sleep, but the evidence is still not definite. The other claims are unproven. No serious side effects have been reported, but long-term effects are unknown. Hormones are powerful substances and can produce unexpected results, so we don't recommend melatonin.

http://www.berkeleywellness.com/html/ds/dsMelatonin.php

I quess am not the only one that knows that.

We are talking about melatonin one of the most questionable supplements on the market. Melatonin fits into your 95% category of Rjkd12 approved supplements. Cortisol inhibits Melatonin release so taking more melatonin will eventually lead to over production of cortisol.

This is a personal attack and is bullshit. I will look up a bit on melatonin at home since I have a few sources there saying it doesn't cause problems. I have been civil this whole time and never commented on your character and never once said you personally were a fraud for promoting such a crap product that has NO relevent scientific data to back it up. I purposely kept this a discussion on your product.

I think you are just upset that I have numerous points saying your product is bullshit and you are pissed off because a few people who know a bit about physiology and how a paper is written proved that. Now you are grasping at one little point I brought up in passing. Even if melatonin kills 95% of the people that take it that doesn't affect your product sucking ass nor does it take away from the FACTS that I brought up about it. None of it is opinion.

Not my fault you thought that this would be the big cash crop for your company and you thought you could fool some fighters into taking it. Sucks to be you asshole.

 

[Rjkd12]

Where did you get your melatonin cortisol information? It seems like you are just drawing another conlusion without facts. Since cortisol inhibits melatonin doesn't mean supplementing with melatonin increases cortisol. But hey, you seen to be a pro at this. Please don't quote the post menapausal study that showed this since I don't have the same estrogen levels that they have.



Why not read some of these, some quick things I got on Pubmed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=16011490&query_hl=1
States that "It has been used successfully to treat disorders of biological rhythms in humans."

You will like this study.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15964511&query_hl=11
"These findings demonstrate the important effects of melatonin or 17beta-estradiol on postmenopausal neuropathy and support the potential application of melatonin in the treatment of dementia in postmenopausal women. Early, long-term melatonin application is a promising strategy which could potentially be applied in a clinical setting."

It used ovariectomized rats just like your study. Maybe you should put your mother on melatonin so she doesn't get dementia. Maybe take some yourself.

Hmm.. this one is from 2004. Light years ahead of your indian studies

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=15754649&query_hl=11
It is safe and non-addictive sleep-inducing drug, which can eliminate disruptions in our circadian rhythm, in such situations as shift working, changing of time zones (during intercontinental air travelling) or insomnia. It improves mood and quality of sleep. Melatonin function consisting in stabilization of biological rhythms, free radical scavenging or immune system stimulating can delay aging processes. Its appropriate supplementation can prolong life even by decades, keeping our body in good both physical and psychological condition. Additionally, profitable for health properties of melatonin include ability to control some illnesses (prophylaxis of cardiovascular system diseases, neoplastic diseases and other functional disorders of organisms). It makes the immune system stronger, decreases susceptibility of the organism to stress, and improves mood and general feeling.

Maybe this stuff isn't so bad afterall. I have plenty, this has taken no more than 30 mins. I'm only from current to november 2004, if I go back there are plenty where this came from.

Oh wait, no, you have this one article that doesn't site sources.

Last one for good measure.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...d&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9337448&query_hl=15
There is significant evidence that links the hormone melatonin to circadian sleep cycles in humans. It has been suggested that in situations where the endogenous melatonin concentration is reduced (advancing age) or the normal circadian cycle is disrupted (jet lag, shift work, blind patients), supplementation with exogenous melatonin may improve both sleep duration and quality.

Quick question. How many times do I have to expose you? This is getting tiring, but yet, its so damn fun. You refuse to listen to me about supplements, but maybe listen to my business advice. You are done here, find other people to con money out of.

 

[Rjkd12]

Lastly, your link says two interesting things.

First is " If you are taking, or thinking of taking, melatonin, talk to a physician

 

[Madmick]

They forgot to include viagra caused blindness and Fen Phen caused death both have double blind sceintific studies. When the supplement industry is controlled by the FDA it will be a sad day for Americans.

And the best business day ever for snake oil salesmen.

 

[Madmick]

Dude, the FDA is bullshit I was benching 225 for 8 reps and then I ate some of that Cissus shit and when I went back it was light so I put on 180 more pounds I benched 400+ lbs 15 times I dont care what any of you say this shit makes you STRONG.

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Where did you get your melatonin cortisol information? It seems like you are just drawing another conlusion without facts. Since cortisol inhibits melatonin doesn't mean supplementing with melatonin increases cortisol. But hey, you seen to be a pro at this. Please don't quote the post menapausal study that showed this since I don't have the same estrogen levels that they have.



Why not read some of these, some quick things I got on Pubmed.



You will like this study.


It used ovariectomized rats just like your study. Maybe you should put your mother on melatonin so she doesn't get dementia. Maybe take some yourself.

Hmm.. this one is from 2004. Light years ahead of your indian studies

Maybe this stuff isn't so bad afterall. I have plenty, this has taken no more than 30 mins. I'm only from current to november 2004, if I go back there are plenty where this came from.

Oh wait, no, you have this one article that doesn't site sources.

Last one for good measure.


Quick question. How many times do I have to expose you? This is getting tiring, but yet, its so damn fun. You refuse to listen to me about supplements, but maybe listen to my business advice. You are done here, find other people to con money out of.

LOL..

I find it humorous how touchy you get when your recommendations are questioned. I am simply stating recommending a "questionable

 

[LeveRAGE.tv]

Where did you get your melatonin cortisol information? It seems like you are just drawing another conlusion without facts. Since cortisol inhibits melatonin doesn't mean supplementing with melatonin increases cortisol. But hey, you seen to be a pro at this. Please don't quote the post menapausal study that showed this since I don't have the same estrogen levels that they have.

HMMM...did you use this study for your argument http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...511&query_hl=11

"These findings demonstrate the important effects of melatonin or 17beta-estradiol on postmenopausal neuropathy and support the potential application of melatonin in the treatment of dementia in postmenopausal women. Early, long-term melatonin application is a promising strategy which could potentially be applied in a clinical setting."

I already understand the rules only apply to me and you are exempt.

Why not read some of these, some quick things I got on Pubmed.

The studies are not double blind placebo controlled, and one was a personal opinion article. If the study is not double blind placebo controlled its not valid is what you explained 8 post back or is dementia setting in? Just to refresh the memory

Like I said, case studies do not mean anything to me unless they are my own (and then not much). I can give people sugar pills and have them talk about amazing changes just from the placebo effect. There have been many studies documenting this. I will be swayed by a peer reviewed double blind study or something similar.

Maybe you should put your mother on melatonin so she doesn't get dementia. Maybe take some yourself.

Once all else fails retort to name calling and worse insulting ones mother. You exude majority.

I graciously bow out and will not stoop to name calling and insulting mothers.

take care

 

[Sinister]

I might be mistaken here but if I remember correctly RJ stated that he made point to NOT recommend Melatonin regularly due to the inconclusiveness of studies at the time he was involved in supplement sales.

 

[Rjkd12]

I find it humorous how touchy you get when your recommendations are questioned. I am simply stating recommending a "questionable

 

[Rjkd12]

Since your acting like a postmenopausal woman with dementia, this study makes perfect sense!

You are right, you are not calling me names.

I said you should give your mother some melatonin to help her not get dimentia, I never said she had any

Plus, these "Opinionated" articles have a special name. They are called Reviews which takes data from the past few studies and tries to make real life sense of of them. They normally are written by a person in the field who is considered an expert. They are the opinion of the lastest research by someone who is an expert, not some fool who is taking the drug.

Lets not get off the topic at hand, I'm still waiting a reply from you buddy with the papers. As soon as I get them I will give them a quick look see and see if there is anything. For all we know the papers found nothing since we don't even have abstracts from them.

 

[Rjkd12]

I was thinking about this and wondering what more I could say to for you to say uncle, and then realized nothing.

I am doing this for fun, I enjoy researching stuff and learning more about it. One of my favorite things to do is expose people using specious arguments, guess you could say its from discussing many supplelements and whatnot with PhD's and having them do it to me. Then I realized you can't say uncle because this is your product and you are paying probably a lot of money to be the forum sponsor and while I have nothing to lose, you do.

I have a few main good points and a few that are mediocre. You, leverage, keep on picking up at the few weaker points and running with tangents every chance you get, and why wouldn't you? If this product becomes amazing, I can say "you are right" and i"ll take it with no loss. If you say, "it sucks" then you lose a lot, being CEO of the company and whatnot. (I didn't get that from PM's I got that from searching your site and using google."

There are two kinds of people who buy supplements, those who just buy them beacuse someone says so and then people who research them (to a varying degree). I think that I have put up a lot of info, and so has leverage. Anybody who is interested can read both and come to any conclusions they want.

By the way, I'm waiting for you to introduce your other "groundbreaking" supplement leverage, I have some time on my hands to do some non-objective research on it. I"m sure Boxingfannomore and Madmick wouldn't mind helping me.

 

[mmacoach]

Some of you know me here, some of you don't. Needles to say. Studies are simple. You argue any supplement/food additive both ways at all times. Look at glutamine, it can be aruged in so many ways that it isn't even funny. Some people call it a waste. Others rave about it and get benefits from it. Look at creatine, how else could you explain non responders?

With that being said, I have had a shoulder injury from grappling for over a year now. Numerous PT sessions etc had done nothng for it. I took Cissus for two months straight, and I would say it is 50% better, also my knee aches from surgery two years ago are gone. Now I know some people will flame away etc. I don't like many supps, I don't believe in very many of them, but I back Cissus 100% especially for a boxer or grappler.

Any questions or flames just PM me no reason to dirty up a thread.

 

[BoxingFanNoMore]

Some of you know me here, some of you don't. Needles to say. Studies are simple. You argue any supplement/food additive both ways at all times. Look at glutamine, it can be aruged in so many ways that it isn't even funny. Some people call it a waste. Others rave about it and get benefits from it. Look at creatine, how else could you explain non responders?

With that being said, I have had a shoulder injury from grappling for over a year now. Numerous PT sessions etc had done nothng for it. I took Cissus for two months straight, and I would say it is 50% better, also my knee aches from surgery two years ago are gone. Now I know some people will flame away etc. I don't like many supps, I don't believe in very many of them, but I back Cissus 100% especially for a boxer or grappler.

Any questions or flames just PM me no reason to dirty up a thread.

Wow, another new member who backs Cissus 100%.

Go Joe!