Do u honestly think that prime Fedor could beat prime JDS?

[Goat St Pierre]

Prime Fedors resume consisted of Japanese cans and UFC champs early or washed in their career

 

[DudeBroMMA]

I think Fedor would destroy him Cain style (One sided beatdown)
Cain in his prime is the only fighter I can see really challenging prime Fedor

 

[Bowel-forged Stool]

Prime JDS knocks his block off. Beating prime crocop is very different than beating heavy handed JDS. If Cain didn’t exist, JDS would be HW GOAT IMO.

 

[Sheva]

Fedor was only 33 when he had 3 losses in a row, the last one to a middleweight. Although he had a lot of fights by that point, he didnt have a lot of MMA mileage, having snuffed out many cans very quickly. Prime JDS would have snuffed him out quickly. Fedor was a GOAT in his day but def not a modern day GOAT. He fought a lot of cans and beat them easily but when he fought anyone tougher, always 3 round decisions.

Not a lot of mileage? You fo realise he had tons and tons of Combat Sambo fights as well?

 

[Ibm]

JDS would be a very dangerous figh for Fedor, JDS could catch him and it'd be over or Fedor wins how ever he wants.

 

[Billthebutcher]

Prime Fedor:



Prime JDS:

 

[krelianx]

Fedor would have taken him down and mauled him imo. But JDS had a good shot on their feet. People forget how strong Fedor's grappling was, before he fell in love with his hands.

 

[Deleted member 504083]

Wondering if any of the Pride super fans believe there're any HW UFC fighters in history who would likely beat one of the top HW Pride fighters in their prime (Prime meaning not a SINGLE day after Pride folded)

PRIDE top 4 - Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Barnett

UFC top 4 - Cain, DC, Stipe, JDS

 

[DayV]

Wondering if any of the Pride super fans believe there're any HW UFC fighters in history who would likely beat one of the top HW Pride fighters in their prime (Prime meaning not a SINGLE day after Pride folded)

PRIDE top 4 - Fedor, Nog, Cro Cop, Barnett

UFC top 4 - Cain, DC, Stipe, JDS

(Prime meaning in square boxing ring with ropes and Pride MMA rules before 10+ years of pro fighting)

Who knows how would UFC guys perform in totally different rules. Some of them most likely a lot worse than in cage.

 

[TankAbbott4Eva]

Prime Fedors resume consisted of Japanese cans and UFC champs early or washed in their career

 

[boss429]

JDS was an absolute destroying machine and looked unstoppable until the incredible Cain! I doubt very much that Fedor would’ve been able to stop prime JDS and the reason why is JDS is extremely hard to take down and control and he stings u from every direction especially his uppercut. What do u think?

Yeah and fairly easily just like he did against a far better technical striker and KO artist in Crocop, mainly on the feet.

Oh, and the "incredible Cains" entire legacy consists of 5 wins over 3 fighters, 2 of which are widely considered cans around here except when mentioned in the context of Cain beating them. (They aren't really but that is the majority consensus).

 

[Deleted member 110072]

No he didnt. 4 min in CroCop was evading clinch battle and Fedor was "runing" after him going in with haymakers until Fedor got rocked with shiff jab and subsequent 1-2, followed by huge overhand haymaker by Fedor and then close missed by high kick from CC followed by clinch where Fedor took CroCop down. If nothing else Mirko did more damage on foot then Fedor, much more.

You posted this before but as I said then this isnt what happened in the fight.

How many times does Fedor look to clinch up with Mirko in the opening 5 mins? I only count once and that is quite half hearted. As I said before the reality is Fedor focused almost entirely on a pure striking contest with Mirko in the first 5 mins of the match.

He was sucessful in pushing Mirko back with those tactics, didnt land masses on him either as Mirko himself showed incredibly good defence but the real story of that fight is that Fedor was able to neutalise Mirko's counters, the left straight and the body kick which punished guys like Aleks, Herring, Wanderlei, etc he was able to block/slip like nobody else ever was.

Mirko wasnt having sucess with his offence so when he got a glimmer or hope he desperately rushed to exploit it, missed his LHK and then semi slipped coming forward allowing Fedor to clinch and take him down.

The reality is we were seeing some very high level boxing from Fedor in that fight, MMA adapted definately but timing/movement on an advanced level. I think this really comes back to the idea that MMA fans are so acclimaised to stiff upright boxing that they view this as "technical" when in reality tis actually quite limited.

Sugar Ray Leonard? sloppy brawler in MMA land, didnt keep his hands up, pump the jab and stay bolt upright his entire career.

 

[Saku'sEar]

Another one of those, spot the ufc shill threads lol.

Fedor was on top for 10 years.
Jds defended his belt once against an ancient Mir and got destroyed by a overrated cain lol.


Ps the fuck is going with sherogcant even typ normal anymore he on mobile.
Sherdog is dying, shithole.

 

[DayV]

It's no reflection on Fedor but I wish with the passage of time more people would be willing to consider that Cro Cop is and has always been massively overrated.

He is a legend in many ways. Good guy, fun fighter, but a lot of his aura came from what his wins looked like and not a fair look at his losses.

Objectively, Cro Cop was a fighter who could not fight the same in the cage and unified rules as in the ring and Pride rules due to different nature of those rules and environments, and who allready had a lot more mileage than most MMA fighters before he even came to USA. Cage was just too big and round for him making it easier for opponents, and just too much time and energy spent in long wire fence pushings.

On the other hand everything he did in the ring, MMA or K-1, he did great and in spectacular fashion, so Cro Cop is a quintesential representative of ring fighting and MMA different than UFC/American one, and of times when Japan was Meca of the fight sport.

Cro Cop allways intended to fight as much as possible, even 8 times in one year. It is easy not to collect losses when you fight only 15 times in your life. JDS allready has more KO losses in MMA than Cro Cop.

With the passage of time, people should be willing to consider that most of UFC champions & stars were/are more overrated since they were never tested in different MMA rules and environment where who knows how would they perform, they were not nearly enough tested against large sample of different styles and opponents, they were never tested in tournaments and never had to fight multiple opponents on the same night, they never had to fight 5+ times a year.
For G sake, Cormier, Jones, Stipe, Cain & Co never even had to fly/travel to a different time zone and struggle against time difference & jet lag.

 

[TJ177]

Objectively, Cro Cop was a fighter who could not fight the same in the cage and unified rules as in the ring and Pride rules due to different nature of those rules and environments, and who allready had a lot more mileage than most MMA fighters before he even came to USA. Cage was just too big and round for him making it easier for opponents, and just too much time and energy spent in long wire fence pushings.

On the other hand everything he did in the ring, MMA or K-1, he did great and in spectacular fashion, so Cro Cop is a quintesential representative of ring fighting and MMA different than UFC/American one, and of times when Japan was Meca of the fight sport.

Cro Cop allways intended to fight as much as possible, even 8 times in one year. It is easy not to collect losses when you fight only 15 times in your life. JDS allready has more KO losses in MMA than Cro Cop.

With the passage of time, people should be willing to consider that most of UFC champions & stars were/are more overrated since they were never tested in different MMA rules and environment where who knows how would they perform, they were not nearly enough tested against large sample of different styles and opponents, they were never tested in tournaments and never had to fight multiple opponents on the same night, they never had to fight 5+ times a year.
For G sake, Cormier, Jones, Stipe, Cain & Co never even had to fly/travel to a different time zone and struggle against time difference & jet lag.

I don't disagree with a lot of what you put. I certainly respect Crocop and think he was a very unique and entertaining fighter. If you followed my posts in this thread, I was largely trying to stay away from my specific hypothetical matchups across era because there are obviously a million different things that are unprovable. Training/jetlag/testing/ring/refs/rules - etc - the eras are very different.

The one area I do think that CroCop gets a little bit too much credit is his all-time standing based on his body of work within his era. Which is the only area that can really be measured. At BEST he was 3rd behind Fedor/Nog - and with the benefit of retrospect a strong case could be made that he was even behind Mir and Randy on the UFC side. The issue I have is that some people want to put Crocop top 5 all-time, which, there just isn't evidence for.

I've rewatched a lot of Pride over the pandemic, and I'm reminded about how entertaining it was and how some of the long-time opinions have formed. I'm reminded of how gigantic a star CroCop was, and how much the Japanese crowds would roar whenever he would be on screen. He felt bigger than life - especially in some of the classic wars with Fedor or Wand or Barnett. But if you look critically at where a lot of that rep came from and where his best wins came from.... it's pretty underwhelming. He was master of the highlight reel KO. He felt menacing. And I think a lot of the time people will throw out things like "Prime Crocop" on their memory of what it felt like to watch him fight, and not what he actually wound up doing.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I don't disagree with a lot of what you put. I certainly respect Crocop and think he was a very unique and entertaining fighter. If you followed my posts in this thread, I was largely trying to stay away from my specific hypothetical matchups across era because there are obviously a million different things that are unprovable. Training/jetlag/testing/ring/refs/rules - etc - the eras are very different.

The one area I do think that CroCop gets a little bit too much credit is his all-time standing based on his body of work within his era. Which is the only area that can really be measured. At BEST he was 3rd behind Fedor/Nog - and with the benefit of retrospect a strong case could be made that he was even behind Mir and Randy on the UFC side. The issue I have is that some people want to put Crocop top 5 all-time, which, there just isn't evidence for.

I've rewatched a lot of Pride over the pandemic, and I'm reminded about how entertaining it was and how some of the long-time opinions have formed. I'm reminded of how gigantic a star CroCop was, and how much the Japanese crowds would roar whenever he would be on screen. He felt bigger than life - especially in some of the classic wars with Fedor or Wand or Barnett. But if you look critically at where a lot of that rep came from and where his best wins came from.... it's pretty underwhelming. He was master of the highlight reel KO. He felt menacing. And I think a lot of the time people will throw out things like "Prime Crocop" on their memory of what it felt like to watch him fight, and not what he actually wound up doing.

I don't think the change in environment was as big a barrier as some claim personally, he suffered from it in his first UFC run due to a lack of prep(was actually injuried for most of the time post GP with a broke ankle LHKing Wandelei) but by his second run even though he was on the decline I don't think he showed the same enviromental weaknesses, he wasnt losing via elbows or being clinched into the cage.

Really Mirko at his best didnt depend on backing people into corners that much, Dos Caras Jnr is the only one that really comes to mind(I spose he beat up Aleks in the Corner before the finish), most of his finishes were in the center of the ring and if anything the larger cage might suit his countering style. Against Eddie Sanchez I think it was mostly fighting a VERY cautious opponent and wanting to push the pace and get a highly KO to build himself up.

I don't see any definitive argument that guys like Cain, JDS or Werdum are above Mirko, even Stipe I think a lot depends on how you look at the form of his opponents. How people want to rank those guys relative to each other shouldnt be THAT important IMHO, I just consider them all greats behind Fedor and Nog.

Form wise personally my view is Mirko was physically close to his prime still in 2007 but probably with the shifting environment and simply just Gonzaga being a dangerous flaky fighter who fought a great fight were the main issues. By his second UFC run though I think physically you can see he's clearly dropping off a lot, isnt anywhere near as fast as he was following several serious injuries.

That latter Crocop basically had to become a totally different fighter, the old version snipering people with the LHK, body kicks and left straight just didnt work without the speed and he became much more of a plodding boxer. Still an effective anti grappler but much more vunerable to strikers.

 

[TJ177]

I don't think the change in environment was as big a barrier as some claim personally, he suffered from it in his first UFC run due to a lack of prep(was actually injuried for most of the time post GP with a broke ankle LHKing Wandelei) but by his second run even though he was on the decline I don't think he showed the same enviromental weaknesses, he wasnt losing via elbows or being clinched into the cage.

Really Mirko at his best didnt depend on backing people into corners that much, Dos Caras Jnr is the only one that really comes to mind(I spose he beat up Aleks in the Corner before the finish), most of his finishes were in the center of the ring and if anything the larger cage might suit his countering style. Against Eddie Sanchez I think it was mostly fighting a VERY cautious opponent and wanting to push the pace and get a highly KO to build himself up.

I don't see any definitive argument that guys like Cain, JDS or Werdum are above Mirko, even Stipe I think a lot depends on how you look at the form of his opponents. How people want to rank those guys relative to each other shouldnt be THAT important IMHO, I just consider them all greats behind Fedor and Nog.

Form wise personally my view is Mirko was physically close to his prime still in 2007 but probably with the shifting environment and simply just Gonzaga being a dangerous flaky fighter who fought a great fight were the main issues. By his second UFC run though I think physically you can see he's clearly dropping off a lot, isnt anywhere near as fast as he was following several serious injuries.

That latter Crocop basically had to become a totally different fighter, the old version snipering people with the LHK, body kicks and left straight just didnt work without the speed and he became much more of a plodding boxer. Still an effective anti grappler but much more vunerable to strikers.

I am definitely of the opinion that no one is ever really going to be able to put forth a definitive argument on any guys between eras. People are going to see and focus on what they want, but every single fighter is adapting to an individual fight's circumstance/context. I absolutely have my own VERY firm opinions, and could justify those, but ultimately it's unprovable. Especially when things that seem super trivial are usually not even established for context. (Like would X fighter just show up from a time machine not having seen tape/film of Z fighter? Would they have time to train? Do they understand the current rules?)

To me - the only thing that doesn't seem debatable was that Fedor had the greatest heavyweight MMA career in history. To date. In terms of resume and accomplishment. Everything after that (including even who's #2) is subject to reasonable debate.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

I am definitely of the opinion that no one is ever really going to be able to put forth a definitive argument on any guys between eras. People are going to see and focus on what they want, but every single fighter is adapting to an individual fight's circumstance/context. I absolutely have my own VERY firm opinions, and could justify those, but ultimately it's unprovable. Especially when things that seem super trivial are usually not even established for context. (Like would X fighter just show up from a time machine not having seen tape/film of Z fighter? Would they have time to train? Do they understand the current rules?)

To me - the only thing that doesn't seem debatable was that Fedor had the greatest heavyweight MMA career in history. To date. In terms of resume and accomplishment. Everything after that (including even who's #2) is subject to reasonable debate.

Even in the same era though I think alot of those guys are on similar ground, Cain, JDS and Werdum were all getting their best results around the same time yet I don't really see a clear argument one of them is definitely above the others.

 

[TJ177]

Even in the same era though I think alot of those guys are on similar ground, Cain, JDS and Werdum were all getting their best results around the same time yet I don't really see a clear argument one of them is definitely above the others.

Agree. I think Werdum specifically is one of the more difficult guys to judge.

There's definitely question marks on my end and who was best during that period when you had Werdum/Reem on top in Strikeforce and Cain/JDS in UFC.

One good part of today's UFC is that there is much less question on other heavies from other orgs. People can think negatively of today's current UFC HW division, but it's not being diluted much by other orgs.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Agree. I think Werdum specifically is one of the more difficult guys to judge.

There's definitely question marks on my end and who was best during that period when you had Werdum/Reem on top in Strikeforce and Cain/JDS in UFC.

One good part of today's UFC is that there is much less question on other heavies from other orgs. People can think negatively of today's current UFC HW division, but it's not being diluted much by other orgs.

Even when they were in the same org though results between them and elsewhere don't really provide a defintive arguement, Werdum beat Cain who beat JDS who beat Werdum.

I think back in the day Fedor's wins over Sylvia and Arlovski pretty much ended any argument the UFC HW division was at a simiilar level to Pride's.

The main issue today is more peoples view of the quality of the HW division as a whole.