Do people realize that Bernie Sanders is further left than the Party for European Socialists?

[Skip Reming]

If a guy is legitimately anti-establishment, why would it surprise you that he is not endorsed by the international establishment??

he wants what all socialist governments wanted since the nazis and commies, he wants the government in your business. He wants equality of outcomes and not equality of opportunity.

a capitalist constitutional republic gave us the best country ever and he wants us to piss sitting down like a fucking swede and go bankrupt with free healthcare like Canada is doing. Fuck this asshole.

I will do an expose on him here real soon

 

[uncommon]

Trade is the thing he is the most wrong on. Trade is only a net positive in the long term for both sides. Both benefit.

In terms of raw efficiency free trade is what you want, but i feel like these trade agreements come at the expense of the internal us economy, and undermine us law.

The efficiency is geared toward multinational corporations. The working class won't benefit by saving 20% on a ford pickup when they don't have a job or lose 20% in wage growth by facing increased competition. Do you think Detroit benefited by trade agreements? I doubt you would want to send your kid to their public schools.

 

[Lead]

In terms of raw efficiency free trade is what you want, but i feel like these trade agreements come at the expense of the internal us economy, and undermine us law.

The efficiency is geared toward multinational corporations. The working class won't benefit by saving 20% on a ford pickup when they don't have a job or lose 20% in wage growth by facing increased competition. Do you think Detroit benefited by trade agreements? I doubt you would want to send your kid to their public schools.

Detroit didn't benefit but you're picking an example from a different time that couldn't even be applied today and saying that's what the general picture of trade has gotten us. The drop in prices is undermined entirely and just because that loses jobs doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. It forces our labor to find more important work which is what has been occurring. That's why a bachelor's is becoming a HS degree. Most of our jobs now require at least moderately educated workers. Also, the manufacturing problem isn't even an argument with trade at this point. Yes, labor is outsourced to China but the shift is very clear that this is temporary as well as more factories become automated enough that they just return to the US. Those jobs are gone no matter how you put it.

 

[National Acrobat]

he wants what all socialist governments wanted since the nazis and commies, he wants the government in your business. He wants equality of outcomes and not equality of opportunity.

a capitalist constitutional republic gave us the best country ever and he wants us to piss sitting down like a fucking swede and go bankrupt with free healthcare like Canada is doing. Fuck this asshole.

I will do an expose on him here real soon

ok...

I'm just responding to the OP. If he's anti-establishment it should be a surprise that the establishments of other governments don't like him. US policy is critical to how a lot of these countries function and a drastic shift US positions would be frowned upon by many right and left wing governments overseas.

And we've had a corporatist imperial government for the better part of a century now so, however you look at it some changes are needed.

Can't wait for that expose either. I'm sure it'll be biting.

 

[theBLADE1]

Europeans don't believe stuff is "rigged" to the degree that Sanders is claiming.

Just ask @Thames or @JDragon they will be the first to tell you that believing in such conspiracy theories is beyond stupid. They will agree that their is corruption, and all that sorts of stuff. But from my experience you won't find many Western Europeans who actually believe that their is some shadowy elite. Which is what many Bernie Fans seem to be saying. Bernie is definitely attracting the "NWO" crowd and it is hurting him in my opinion.


All I am saying is that Bernie Sanders being so anti-Trade among other things is in direct opposition to the policy and platforms of ACTUAL European Socialists like the French President.

Europeans don't believe stuff is rigged because when they do spot corruption they use their powers and deal with it with massive protest. Look at Iceland just recently for example. Their leader was caught up in this whole Panama tax Haven scandal and thousands of people came together to depose him and he ended up resigning his position.

Americans are now learning that they have the power to do the same things and now they are voting for a president who actually represent them in Bernie Sanders. And it's very sad that actually have to explain this to you, But Sanders isn't against free trade. He has been against all of these disasters free trade agreements that have sent American jobs overseas where workers are paid sometimes around $.40 an hour. But I guess you're okay with that kind of thing.

Let's see what your favorite establishment call girl had to say about the Panama free trade agreement, and then what Sen. Sanders had to say.



Looks like you're full of It again south. Just admit it, Sanders shows leadership and Clinton lacks the intellect to make the proper decisions for the American people.

AlsoThese European socialist have no reason to get involved in our current political shit show and I don't blame them for not endorsing anybody.

 

[theBLADE1]

I will do an expose on him here real soon

And I'll be here to rip your logic to shreds.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I didn't promise anyone shit in the 90's. There are tech jobs right now. They obviously are less than what we had with manufacturing. No one is arguing the labor participation rate hasn't been dropping since the 90's. What most of us are acknowledging though is you can't reverse technological innovation. Jobs that were taken away from machines will stay gone.

That is fair enough. My point was more that this trade lifts all boats stuff, hasn't really shown up in the US as of yet. I used to be a free trader BTW. I used to believe that growing a middle class in China was beneficial to all.

I changed my mind when I saw a peasant class, and oligarchy being built in China, and other developing nations. It looks to me now like the case for free trade, was actually a case for unregulated economies, and low wages to the benefit of a few.

 

[VivaRevolution]

he wants what all socialist governments wanted since the nazis and commies, he wants the government in your business. He wants equality of outcomes and not equality of opportunity.

a capitalist constitutional republic gave us the best country ever and he wants us to piss sitting down like a fucking swede and go bankrupt with free healthcare like Canada is doing. Fuck this asshole.

I will do an expose on him here real soon

How is that de-regulation working out for you?

Let's get government out of regulating our water.(Flint, and 200 other places)
Let's get government out of regulating the banks. (GFC)
Let's get government out of preventing BP from destroying our planet.

How your ilk isn't embarrassed to speak your BS, is amazing to me.

Your greed is good, Gordon Gecko non-sense, is what is destroying this country, not hippies, and socialists.

 

[National Acrobat]

And I'll be here to rip your logic to shreds.

 

[Skip Reming]

How is that de-regulation working out for you?

Let's get government out of regulating our water.(Flint, and 200 other places)
Let's get government out of regulating the banks. (GFC)
Let's get government out of preventing BP from destroying our planet.

How your ilk isn't embarrassed to speak your BS, is amazing to me.

Your greed is good, Gordon Gecko non-sense, is what is destroying this country, not hippies, and socialists.

how did socialism work for nazi germany? Or USSR? How is it working out for the horror story sweden is becoming? How is it working for canada's health care system???

You post a few things, but again america is the best country ever. why do we want it to be socialist again?
My ilk??? You mean like american founding fathers and shit?? get the fuck out of the USA.

Hey, name me ONE full democratic socialist country???? Oh,, right, you can't

It is people like you that don't know shit about socialism that go on trying to grab it like a swedish guy who pisses while sitting down.

And I'll be here to rip your logic to shreds.

you have not done it yet, why would you on such an easy topic for me: capitalist constitutional monarchy vs the socialism of cuba/nazi germany/ussr

please, pick a winnable position.

 

[Der Eisbär]

Further to the left or rather "more fringe" with regards to his Trade policy (and also in many cases foreign policy, and International relations). Bernie Sanders is an advocate of conspiracy theories which is something that NO European leaders are for.

If you are a European than you should know that there is not a respectable leader in Europe today who believes that "things are rigged" out to get them. And yet that is consistently the view that Sanders is seeming to advocate along side his major mistakes and lack of knowledge on foreign policy (like overstating Palestinian deaths by Israel via 500%).

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2015/10/bernies-conspiracy-theory-213307

Politicians aren't spouting out that 'the system is rigged' BECAUSE THEIR SYSTEM NO LONGER IS RIGGED. The people have won, they have health and education, maternity leave, adequate pay, adequate vacation time.

So yeah, no shit they aren't saying the system is rigged. Just like if Bernie were to implement all his policies his supporters would no longer be claiming the system is rigged.

Common sense no?

 

[SouthoftheAndes]

how did socialism work for nazi germany? Or USSR? How is it working out for the horror story sweden is becoming? How is it working for canada's health care system???

You post a few things, but again america is the best country ever. why do we want it to be socialist again?
My ilk??? You mean like american founding fathers and shit?? get the fuck out of the USA.

Hey, name me ONE full democratic socialist country???? Oh,, right, you can't

It is people like you that don't know shit about socialism that go on trying to grab it like a swedish guy who pisses while sitting down.



you have not done it yet, why would you on such an easy topic for me: capitalist constitutional monarchy vs the socialism of cuba/nazi germany/ussr

please, pick a winnable position.

To be fair. Hendorua doesn't seem to be near as radical or hardcore of a stubborn (know it all) compared to Blade. I have also seen him advocate for a mix of capitalism and socialism.

Politicians aren't spouting out that 'the system is rigged' BECAUSE THEIR SYSTEM NO LONGER IS RIGGED. The people have won, they have health and education, maternity leave, adequate pay, adequate vacation time.

So yeah, no shit they aren't saying the system is rigged. Just like if Bernie were to implement all his policies his supporters would no longer be claiming the system is rigged.

Common sense no?

You sound like an American.

A European wouldn't go about it like you are.

LOL the system was never rigged by "shadowy elite men". We have had corruption before and corruption does exist but there are no overlords and banks aren't controlling the world like Bernie seems to be implying. No sensible European leader thinks that either.

 

[VivaRevolution]

how did socialism work for nazi germany? Or USSR? How is it working out for the horror story sweden is becoming? How is it working for canada's health care system???

You post a few things, but again america is the best country ever. why do we want it to be socialist again?
My ilk??? You mean like american founding fathers and shit?? get the fuck out of the USA.

Hey, name me ONE full democratic socialist country???? Oh,, right, you can't

It is people like you that don't know shit about socialism that go on trying to grab it like a swedish guy who pisses while sitting down.



you have not done it yet, why would you on such an easy topic for me: capitalist constitutional monarchy vs the socialism of cuba/nazi germany/ussr

please, pick a winnable position.

If you think what we are today, at all resembles anything in this countries history other then pre-crash era's, you live in a fairy tale.

I don't believe in socialism. I do believe in worker co-ops. See this makes me more of a conservative than you are, as this is a decentralization of power.

You want more private power, you are just a market socialist. Instead of corrupted government running everything, you want corrupted corporations running everything.

I want decentralized systems, and I don't get caught up on marketed/branded phrases, and talking head talking points.

 

[Lead]

That is fair enough. My point was more that this trade lifts all boats stuff, hasn't really shown up in the US as of yet. I used to be a free trader BTW. I used to believe that growing a middle class in China was beneficial to all.

I changed my mind when I saw a peasant class, and oligarchy being built in China, and other developing nations. It looks to me now like the case for free trade, was actually a case for unregulated economies, and low wages to the benefit of a few.

All boats did rise. You're the person complaining about the turbulence as it rises. Putting artifical barriers in place to secure obsolete labor doesn't strengthen the country in the long run. Also, ignoring global trade while the rest of the world trades hurts are country and has us fall behind. We waste our production on companies less efficient than what another country possibly does which never allows that labor/production to be freed up to find more important work.

Would you have been the guy who was complaining as agricultural jobs became 5% of our economy when it was the majority of work 100 years ago? Would you have been the guy yelling about printing presses for taking the labor of scribes? Think how silly it would be to protect that labor back then and not to get where we are now. It's the same with manufacturing. It's this sacred type of labor to a certain segment/generation that think it never should be replaced or moved on from. What's silly is Bernie is suppose to be progressive and he is completely regressive with this type of policy. Both parties and the general consensus of the world understands the mass net gain of trade. Globalization didn't occur against the will of humanity, it was embraced as it should be.

I've said it a few times. Manufacturing is gone whether you place barriers or not. You can't force society backwards with technological innovation.

 

[VivaRevolution]

All boats did rise. You're the person complaining about the turbulence as it rises. Putting artifical barriers in place to secure obsolete labor doesn't strengthen the country in the long run. Also, ignoring global trade while the rest of the world trades hurts are country and has us fall behind. We waste our production on companies less efficient than what another country possibly does which never allows that labor/production to be freed up to find more important work.

Would you have been the guy who was complaining as agricultural jobs became 5% of our economy when it was the majority of work 100 years ago? Would you have been the guy yelling about printing presses for taking the labor of scribes? Think how silly it would be to protect that labor back then and not to get where we are now. It's the same with manufacturing. It's this sacred type of labor to a certain segment/generation that think it never should be replaced or moved on from. What's silly is Bernie is suppose to be progressive and he is completely regressive with this type of policy. Both parties and the general consensus of the world understands the mass net gain of trade. Globalization didn't occur against the will of humanity, it was embraced as it should be.

I've said it a few times. Manufacturing is gone whether you place barriers or not. You can't force society backwards with technological innovation.

How long do I need to wait, until those tech jobs that were to replace our manufacturing jobs show up then?

I mean it has been almost 30 years, how long, 40, 50, 100 years?

Because all I see is Wal-mart and Starbucks jobs replacing those middle class manufacturing jobs.

 

[Lead]

If you think what we are today, at all resembles anything in this countries history other then pre-crash era's, you live in a fairy tale.

I don't believe in socialism. I do believe in worker co-ops. See this makes me more of a conservative than you are, as this is a decentralization of power.

You want more private power, you are just a market socialist. Instead of corrupted government running everything, you want corrupted corporations running everything.

I want decentralized systems, and I don't get caught up on marketed/branded phrases, and talking head talking points.

This is wrong. You can perfectly embrace for open trade while countering it with public powers. What do you think all these complex trade deals are done for. You will focus on the small print areas that benefits one side or another (which is a far argument to have pro and cons) but a lot of it is multiple governments coming to agreements how they are going to enforce these transactions and finding common ground with law. There are many things that have helped make the world more peaceful but aside from the nuclear stalement, trade has brought countries together to place of peaceful game of market/financial warfare. Each side is ensuring their interests are being met and in the process, our businesses are becoming more interrelated and a further incentive for peaceful relations.

Also, the more trade deals like NATO, TTP that go through, the more public power you achieve with governments regulating these large corporations you fear so much. You mindset is to isolate ourselves from the world market and not expect mega corps to find their way in and control.

 

[Lead]

How long do I need to wait, until those tech jobs that were to replace our manufacturing jobs show up then?

I mean it has been almost 30 years, how long, 40, 50, 100 years?

Because all I see is Wal-mart and Starbucks jobs replacing those middle class manufacturing jobs.

I answered you. Tech jobs have arrived. They just aren't abundant as what manufacturing use to have. Keep in mind this is not a point for your cause. All you are doing is pointing at a problem in our current day situation and proposing to rewind technological advancement somehow relive pre-90's. I'm acknowledge the pros and cons of today as you are ramping up the cons and glorifying the pros of the past we can no longer replicate. Should I ask you where all those printing press jobs are during the transition of scribes losing their work? Should I ask you where are all those farm jobs as agriculture became way more efficient? The answer is markets have turbulence. We can't figure out what labor will move to when a surplus is created from technological advancement until it happens. I never claimed to be psychic and I think that's much more honest than you telling people manufacturing jobs can come back the way it was in the past.

Also, if you only see starbucks and walmart jobs, you are narrow sighted about what work remains for the middle class.

 

[VivaRevolution]

This is wrong. You can perfectly embrace for open trade while countering it with public powers. What do you think all these complex trade deals are done for. You will focus on the small print areas that benefits one side or another (which is a far argument to have pro and cons) but a lot of it is multiple governments coming to agreements how they are going to enforce these transactions and finding common ground with law. There are many things that have helped make the world more peaceful but aside from the nuclear stalement, trade has brought countries together to place of peaceful game of market/financial warfare. Each side is ensuring their interests are being met and in the process, our businesses are becoming more interrelated and a further incentive for peaceful relations.

Also, the more trade deals like NATO, TTP that go through, the more public power you achieve with governments regulating these large corporations you fear so much. You mindset is to isolate ourselves from the world market and not expect mega corps to find their way in and control.

This would be all well and good if GDP, and corporate profits weren't what success was being measured by.

What is good for corporate profits, does not mean it is what is good for the workers. This is constantly conflated, and I believe intentionally by many.

I don't see "free trade" anywhere. I see corporate protectionism.

 

[VivaRevolution]

I answered you. Tech jobs have arrived. They just aren't abundant as what manufacturing use to have. Keep in mind this is not a point for your cause. All you are doing is pointing at a problem in our current day situation and proposing to rewind technological advancement somehow relive pre-90's. I'm acknowledge the pros and cons of today as you are ramping up the cons and glorifying the pros of the past we can no longer replicate. Should I ask you where all those printing press jobs are during the transition of scribes losing their work? Should I ask you where are all those farm jobs as agriculture became way more efficient? The answer is markets have turbulence. We can't figure out what labor will move to when a surplus is created from technological advancement until it happens. I never claimed to be psychic and I think that's much more honest than you telling people manufacturing jobs can come back the way it was in the past.

Also, if you only see starbucks and walmart jobs, you are narrow sighted about what work remains for the middle class.

Hey, we actually made progress in a discussion.

I don't really disagree with a whole lot here. My problem is that the Chamber of Commerce lobbied these trade deals into place, and didn't address these issues. Well guess what, they don't get to have their cake and eat it too. They don't get to lobby the policies in place that benefit them, and tell us to fix the other problems this created. Fuck that.

If they want to have their "free trade" then they need to make it work for all of us, or they can eat the populist uprising that is coming there way.

 

[Lead]

This would be all well and good if GDP, and corporate profits weren't what success was being measured by.

What is good for corporate profits, does not mean it is what is good for the workers. This is constantly conflated, and I believe intentionally by many.

I don't see "free trade" anywhere. I see corporate protectionism.

Okay, how about we use the unemployment rate at 5%? Cause you seem to be complaining about jobs being gone yet the people participating in the workforce seem to have found work. So much so that we are looking at a rate pretty much making up just the frictional rate. People who want work find it. Real median household incomes are higher than they were in the 90's. They haven't made leaps and bounds but they are still higher than the time you are glorifying. I think the focus going forward will be raising wages but you most certainly make more problems than fixes by trying to rewind technological advancement. You can't go backwards HRG. I know you think that somehow is possible and makes sense but it makes zero sense. Zero. We are in far better shape than you pretend and the problems we have don't call for the damaging proposals Trump and Sanders want with trade.