discussion about strength gains while on a caloric deficit

[tkdyo]

I have been thinking a lot about how you can still gain strength as long as the caloric deficit you are on is small. I remember posters suggesting something around 10% deficit. So it got me wondering how.

Ive read the general consensus is that your body doesnt (or cant) really build any more muscle when you are eating under maintenance.

So is it simply that your muscles learn to contract harder with what they have to move more weight? So in effect you are making your muscles as efficient as possible if you plateau while cutting? Then you have to eat more to finally add more mass once the existing muscles cant contract any harder?

Or is it that your body can still build a miniscule amount of muscle mass even on a deficit but only to a point and then you do have to eat at a surplus no matter what to lift more?

These are the only options I can think of, anyone know or have other ideas?

 

[Keosawa]

Neuromuscular adaptation.

 

[luckyshot]

Neuromuscular adaptation.

Can neuromuscular adaptation continue at a rate fast enough to compensate for stagnating or decreasing muscle mass even in intermediate or advanced lifters?

 

[Keosawa]

Can neuromuscular adaptation continue at a rate fast enough to compensate for stagnating or decreasing muscle mass even in intermediate or advanced lifters?

It just depends on the lifter, and on your definition of "intermediate" and "advanced."

I went from a 1050-lb. gym total weighing 180 lbs. to a 1400-lb. gym total weighing about 155 lbs. So, from personal experience, I know that it would be possible for an intermediate to lose weight and get considerably stronger over time.

 

[CPP]

I went from a 1050-lb. gym total weighing 180 lbs. to a 1400-lb. gym total weighing about 155 lbs.

Two impertinent questions:
Did you actually lose a significant part of that as muscle mass or did you have 25lbs of fat to cut?
Were you on a daily caloric deficit?
Either way it's amazing.

 

[Pathogenic]

If you eat at a small caloric deficit while eating sufficient protein, then you will retain or even gain strength during your cut, unless you lose a very substantial amount of weight. You will also keep most of your lean mass this way. Carbohydrates also help to a lesser extent in retaining lean mass.

 

[toonie]

Just from personal experience, but while I was dropping from 180 to 165, my lifts plateaued for about a month and a half, but eventually I began to progress again and began setting (or matching) PRs in all my lifts at the lower bodyweight. The weight loss was over the span of ~3-4 months.

 

[casperthegst]

It just depends on the lifter, and on your definition of "intermediate" and "advanced."

I went from a 1050-lb. gym total weighing 180 lbs. to a 1400-lb. gym total weighing about 155 lbs. So, from personal experience, I know that it would be possible for an intermediate to lose weight and get considerably stronger over time.

But what rep ranges were you using when you did this? Doing ss or other 5x5 variants seems like it is not optimal because one of the adaptations is muscluar sizE with these programs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

On a side note I don't know how the hell you did this. When I wasn't adding mass my numbers would not budge at all during my first run with starting strength. Right now I'm about 190 with roughly a 1350 total but if I do not eat and gain weight I stall but I would love to be able to get stronger without getting fat. The thing is if your total is not going up but you are getting heavier this just means your addin fat rather than muscle.

 

[casperthegst]

If you eat at a small caloric deficit while eating sufficient protein, then you will retain or even gain strength during your cut, unless you lose a very substantial amount of weight. You will also keep most of your lean mass this way. Carbohydrates also help to a lesser extent in retaining lean mass.

I thought you only needed around 100grams of carbs to prevent ketosis but the more physical activity meaning walking or running or other aerobics the more carbs you needed to maintain muscle but protein and fats were the most important quanity calories on a cut.

 

[PUO3]

losing weight doesnt always mean losing strength.

gaining mass doesnt always mean gaining strength either.

 

[PolishHeadlock]

 

[luckyshot]

It just depends on the lifter, and on your definition of "intermediate" and "advanced."

I went from a 1050-lb. gym total weighing 180 lbs. to a 1400-lb. gym total weighing about 155 lbs. So, from personal experience, I know that it would be possible for an intermediate to lose weight and get considerably stronger over time.

That's nuts.

Is 155 a weight you cut to or a weight you maintain? Also, what are your nutritional guidelines?

Just from personal experience, but while I was dropping from 180 to 165, my lifts plateaued for about a month and a half, but eventually I began to progress again and began setting (or matching) PRs in all my lifts at the lower bodyweight. The weight loss was over the span of ~3-4 months.

This has been close to my experience. I started at 165, chubbed up to 205 and put big gains on all my lifts. I'm back down to about 180ish right now, and I've broken my deadlift PR's but I still haven't recovered all the strength on my bench.

 

[tkdyo]

Yes, I know its definitely possible, I plan on losing fat once I am able to bench my bw. But Im just wondering about the actual science behind it since I thought your body was only suppose to build muscle if you are on a caloric surplus. I will have to look in to the neromuscular adaptation.

 

[Babyeater]

If you eat at a small caloric deficit while eating sufficient protein, then you will retain or even gain strength during your cut, unless you lose a very substantial amount of weight. You will also keep most of your lean mass this way. Carbohydrates also help to a lesser extent in retaining lean mass.

This. I am constantly training on a deficit. In fact, over the last week and a half, my weight has been steadily dropping, and I suspect I'm slightly leaner right now than I was prior to this period. I train on a deficit almost constantly. I "refeed" periodically. I intend to cut from ~110 to 105 for competition, and as a chick who apparently can barely sweat out a pound in two hours, I have to be damn careful about my body composition if I want to be able to make that cut.

My training has been, honestly, pretty awesome over the past four weeks, particularly in the last two. I feel great and I'm heading into my workouts with enthusiasm and drive. How do you rain on a deficit? You get in there and train, and you remember why you want to train, and what you want to accomplish. The mind is a much bigger factor in successful training than all else--and I'll stand behind that massive generalization any day.

 

[Keosawa]

Two impertinent questions:
Did you actually lose a significant part of that as muscle mass or did you have 25lbs of fat to cut?
Were you on a daily caloric deficit?
Either way it's amazing.

Neither is an impertinent question, and you have the right to ask.

First: yes, the majority of it was fat loss:

Spoiler

to...

And yes, I was on a pretty slight caloric deficit for a long period of time, but I didn't measure exactly how much it was.

But what rep ranges were you using when you did this? Doing ss or other 5x5 variants seems like it is not optimal because one of the adaptations is muscluar sizE with these programs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

On a side note I don't know how the hell you did this. When I wasn't adding mass my numbers would not budge at all during my first run with starting strength. Right now I'm about 190 with roughly a 1350 total but if I do not eat and gain weight I stall but I would love to be able to get stronger without getting fat. The thing is if your total is not going up but you are getting heavier this just means your addin fat rather than muscle.

When I started, I was using a 5x5 variation, and I gained strength. Then I switched to more of a Westside program and I gained strength. Now, I'm running Smolov and Smolov Jr. and gaining strength. So, while I think that high-intensity work in general will help maintain strength while on a deficit, it's not so much a matter of the programming but what goes into it.

That's nuts.

Is 155 a weight you cut to or a weight you maintain? Also, what are your nutritional guidelines?



This has been close to my experience. I started at 165, chubbed up to 205 and put big gains on all my lifts. I'm back down to about 180ish right now, and I've broken my deadlift PR's but I still haven't recovered all the strength on my bench.

155 is what I wake up at in the morning; I cut down to 148 for powerlifting.

My nutritional guidelines are pretty simple: macro ratio of protein:carbs:fat at about 4:2:1, though I'll tweak it depending upon how I feel. I eat the same foods every way (so, I'm not an "if it fits your macro" guy) and I just eat at maintenance year-round now so that I don't have to go on a deficit to make weight.

 

[luckyshot]

My nutritional guidelines are pretty simple: macro ratio of protein:carbs:fat at about 4:2:1, though I'll tweak it depending upon how I feel. I eat the same foods every way (so, I'm not an "if it fits your macro" guy) and I just eat at maintenance year-round now so that I don't have to go on a deficit to make weight.

Thanks for info. And by the way, your back has better abs than my abs.

 

[Pathogenic]

I thought you only needed around 100grams of carbs to prevent ketosis but the more physical activity meaning walking or running or other aerobics the more carbs you needed to maintain muscle but protein and fats were the most important quanity calories on a cut.

100g is probably the absolute minimum amount you'd want to eat if you only lifted 2x per week and did nothing but peruse Sherdog outside of training. In general, the more carbs, the better. They're the only macronutrient other than protein that spares lean mass. They also help regulate leptin, which is one of the most helpful hormones when it comes to weight loss. They also help restore testosterone and other useful hormones. That's why advanced dieters and weight class athletes (like Babyeater) incorporate frequent carbohydrate refeeds, even if they eat a significant amount of carbs regularly.

Fat really isn't important on a cut. In general, if your deficit is moderate, and you get about 25% of your calories from fat, then you have it covered.

Protein is the most important macro, though. No doubt about it.

 

[LegioTitan]

100g is probably the absolute minimum amount you'd want to eat if you only lifted 2x per week and did nothing but peruse Sherdog outside of training. In general, the more carbs, the better. They're the only macronutrient other than protein that spares lean mass. They also help regulate leptin, which is one of the most helpful hormones when it comes to weight loss. They also help restore testosterone and other useful hormones. That's why advanced dieters and weight class athletes (like Babyeater) incorporate frequent carbohydrate refeeds, even if they eat a significant amount of carbs regularly.

Fat really isn't important on a cut. In general, if your deficit is moderate, and you get about 25% of your calories from fat, then you have it covered.

Protein is the most important macro, though. No doubt about it.

I feel better about this entire box of rice pasta I'm eating. Thanks.

 

[CPP]

Thanks Keosawa, now I am informed and inspired

 

[tkdyo]

Neither is an impertinent question, and you have the right to ask.

First: yes, the majority of it was fat loss:

And yes, I was on a pretty slight caloric deficit for a long period of time, but I didn't measure exactly how much it was.

My nutritional guidelines are pretty simple: macro ratio of protein:carbs:fat at about 4:2:1, though I'll tweak it depending upon how I feel. I eat the same foods every way (so, I'm not an "if it fits your macro" guy) and I just eat at maintenance year-round now so that I don't have to go on a deficit to make weight.

Hey keo, this raises a couple questions to me.

So since you eat at maintenance year round, are you still very slowly experiencing hypertrophy with your strength gains or is it pretty much purely neuromuscular adaptation? As a follow up, if you havnt had any hypertrophy do you think neuromuscular adaptation alone will continue to be all you need or will you eventually need to bulk up a little more since you arnt super far off from the class you compete in?

Im very interested in all of this since I am mainly in a weight dependent sport as well.