discussion about strength gains while on a caloric deficit

[Keosawa]

Hey keo, this raises a couple questions to me.

So since you eat at maintenance year round, are you still very slowly experiencing hypertrophy with your strength gains or is it pretty much purely neuromuscular adaptation?

I actually weigh less now than when I started competing at 148, so I don't think I've increased muscle size at all.

As a follow up, if you havnt had any hypertrophy do you think neuromuscular adaptation alone will continue to be all you need or will you eventually need to bulk up a little more since you arnt super far off from the class you compete in?

Im very interested in all of this since I am mainly in a weight dependent sport as well.

I'm just going to keep training until I'm unable to make progress, but I don't think I'm at a point now where increasing muscle size is necessary for me to increase my lifts. Sometimes, I stall for a period of time, but I keep trying things until something works. My bench press was below my all-time PR for over two years until I finally tried something that clicked; I could have resorted to weight-gain earlier, but I always felt as if I'd find an answer. Most people don't have the patience to experiment with their programming for two years to fix a stalled lift.

The point is, weight-gain is only necessary for experienced strength athletes who have truly exhausted every option. That's not to say that it isn't useful for everybody else, but almost everyone can get a little stronger without having to get bigger.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

I'm just going to keep training until I'm unable to make progress, but I don't think I'm at a point now where increasing muscle size is necessary for me to increase my lifts. Sometimes, I stall for a period of time, but I keep trying things until something works. My bench press was below my all-time PR for over two years until I finally tried something that clicked; I could have resorted to weight-gain earlier, but I always felt as if I'd find an answer. Most people don't have the patience to experiment with their programming for two years to fix a stalled lift.

The point is, weight-gain is only necessary for experienced strength athletes who have truly exhausted every option. That's not to say that it isn't useful for everybody else, but almost everyone can get a little stronger without having to get bigger.

This gives me great reassurance, Keo! I have decreased my carb intake and my total caloric intake significantly over the past few months. I still get what I need, I just don't go nuts. I have never felt better and I am really starting to lean out, which I cannot ignore as a nice thing right now... I am currently hovering around my caloric intake goals. Some days are better than others. I haven't really worried too much about it because I was still making strength gains. But this comment certainly makes me feel a lot better about what I am doing...

 

[miaou]

Lifting on a caloric deficit sucks @@.

That is all I have to say.

 

[LegioTitan]

Relative to BW I've actually gotten slightly stronger than when I was at 195lbs.

Just my personal experience.

If it weren't for injury and set backs I'm quite positive I'd be right at all-time PR's. Forcing myself to be at 200+lbs just wasn't natural.

Without my flinstones vitamins I don't believe I could do that again.

 

[NurseKnuckles]

Lifting on a caloric deficit sucks @@.

That is all I have to say.

Although I don't dip too far below, I can definitely notice on the weeks I don't get as much.

My deficit is never intentional. If I don't get the opportunity to stop during the day to eat, I don't...

 

[NurseKnuckles]

I also continue to gain weight as a goal. I would like to be 200+ pounds. My frame is quite large, just nothing surrounding it right now...

 

[Keosawa]

Lifting on a caloric deficit sucks @@.

That is all I have to say.

I honestly cannot remember what it feels like to train on a surplus.

 

[selfcritical]

100g is probably the absolute minimum amount you'd want to eat if you only lifted 2x per week and did nothing but peruse Sherdog outside of training. In general, the more carbs, the better. They're the only macronutrient other than protein that spares lean mass. They also help regulate leptin, which is one of the most helpful hormones when it comes to weight loss. They also help restore testosterone and other useful hormones. That's why advanced dieters and weight class athletes (like Babyeater) incorporate frequent carbohydrate refeeds, even if they eat a significant amount of carbs regularly.

Fat really isn't important on a cut. In general, if your deficit is moderate, and you get about 25% of your calories from fat, then you have it covered.

Protein is the most important macro, though. No doubt about it.

I was actually under the impression that ketosis is largely protein-sparing, although it's obviously a very extreme diet choice.

 

[tkdyo]

I actually weigh less now than when I started competing at 148, so I don't think I've increased muscle size at all.



I'm just going to keep training until I'm unable to make progress, but I don't think I'm at a point now where increasing muscle size is necessary for me to increase my lifts. Sometimes, I stall for a period of time, but I keep trying things until something works. My bench press was below my all-time PR for over two years until I finally tried something that clicked; I could have resorted to weight-gain earlier, but I always felt as if I'd find an answer. Most people don't have the patience to experiment with their programming for two years to fix a stalled lift.

The point is, weight-gain is only necessary for experienced strength athletes who have truly exhausted every option. That's not to say that it isn't useful for everybody else, but almost everyone can get a little stronger without having to get bigger.

Holy cow, two years? Thats an amazing degree of patience. i would have definitely thought I would have exhausted every option by then. What finally broke that? Sheiko?

 

[JRT6]

In my experience it depends on what I was measuring. I recently lost over 40lbs and did my squat go down? Fuk yeah it did. Did other exercises like weighted pull-ups and push-ups go up (added weight adjusted to my old BW and more) yes I made some pretty decent gains. In that regard I haven't been this strong since my pre-arthritis early 30's.

 

[JRT6]

In fact I'm pretty damn hungry right now and staying under 210 is a challenge but I do enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of walking that calorie line where I'm maintaining a low BF yet still succeeding in the gym.

 

[daken7]

I actually weigh less now
than when I started competing at 148, so I don't think I've increased
muscle size at all.



I'm just going to keep training until I'm unable to make progress, but I
don't think I'm at a point now where increasing muscle size is
necessary for me to increase my lifts. Sometimes, I stall for a period
of time, but I keep trying things until something works. My bench press
was below my all-time PR for over two years until I finally tried
something that clicked; I could have resorted to weight-gain earlier,
but I always felt as if I'd find an answer. Most people don't have the
patience to experiment with their programming for two years to fix a
stalled lift.

The point is, weight-gain is only necessary for experienced strength
athletes who have truly exhausted every option. That's not to say that
it isn't useful for everybody else, but almost everyone can get a little
stronger without having to get bigger.

Why do I get the feeling that you could teach Mark Rippetoe a thing or two lol.

 

[Eric Brown]

All sorts of strength athletes can gain strength on a cut, assuming it is done properly. Hell, both my woman and I have done so at the same time, and we are in our 40s. (admitted, I was coming back from injury, but she was not). Careful attention to detail, patience and focus, just like any other goal.

Over a 15 week period, she hit two snatch and two clean and jerk PR's while cutting about 20 pounds.

If a lifter competes often, and works to make weight, they will spend a significant amount of time over the course of the year either at maintenance or below.

 

[Patryn]

It just depends on the lifter, and on your definition of "intermediate" and "advanced."

I went from a 1050-lb. gym total weighing 180 lbs. to a 1400-lb. gym total weighing about 155 lbs. So, from personal experience, I know that it would be possible for an intermediate to lose weight and get considerably stronger over time.

What do you mean by "1050lb gym total"? I went from 180 as a bodybuilder to 155 when I got into BJJ. Lost 10lb on overhead press, everything else has still gone up, though not by much. I'm wondering how to compare to a "gym total".

 

[wufabufa]

What do you mean by "1050lb gym total"? I went from 180 as a bodybuilder to 155 when I got into BJJ. Lost 10lb on overhead press, everything else has still gone up, though not by much. I'm wondering how to compare to a "gym total".

Gym total = His one rep maxes for Deadlift, Sqaut, and Bench press added together.

 

[LegioTitan]

he means his best training lifts done in the gym outside of a competition setting

 

[Keosawa]

Why do I get the feeling that you could teach Mark Rippetoe a thing or two lol.

Rippetoe gives good advice to new lifters: in order to take fullest advantage of gains during your formative months, it does make sense to operate on a surplus and put on weight. But Rippetoe's emphasis, in my opinion, is ass-backwards.

While eating a surplus early on gives you a head start, top lifters don't share the common denominator of having achieved a fast started when they began training. Plenty of lifters like myself trained stupidly to begin, and only found their way later in training. So, making the most of your first few months, while helpful, is far from a necessary condition for someday being a top lifter.

Second, maximal strength development takes a considerable amount of time, so it seems ass-backwards, again, for someone to stress maximizing early returns for something that essentially takes years to develop to an advanced level. Again, look at the top lifters and realize how inconsequential maximizing early returns ends up being.

Simply put, the best lifters, with few exceptions, are the ones that are consistent over many years; if I were coaching new trainees, I'd be less concerned with an early caloric surplus and more concerned with providing them with the tools and the mindset for making training sustainable for the rest of their lives. If one lifter drinks a gallon of milk a day during the first three months of training and another doesn't, their progress after ten years will depend infinitely more on who stays motivated and interested in training over that time, not who drank their milk and put on weight at the beginning.

 

[Keosawa]

What do you mean by "1050lb gym total"? I went from 180 as a bodybuilder to 155 when I got into BJJ. Lost 10lb on overhead press, everything else has still gone up, though not by much. I'm wondering how to compare to a "gym total".

As Legio said, it just means the total of my squat, bench press, and deadlift done in a gym setting, as opposed to an official competition.

 

[daken7]

Rippetoe gives good advice
to new lifters: in order to take fullest advantage of gains during your
formative months, it does make sense to operate on a surplus and put on
weight. But Rippetoe's emphasis, in my opinion, is ass-backwards.

While eating a surplus early on gives you a head start, top lifters
don't share the common denominator of having achieved a fast started
when they began training. Plenty of lifters like myself trained stupidly
to begin, and only found their way later in training. So, making the
most of your first few months, while helpful, is far from a necessary
condition for someday being a top lifter.

Second, maximal strength development takes a considerable amount of
time, so it seems ass-backwards, again, for someone to stress maximizing
early returns for something that essentially takes years to develop to
an advanced level. Again, look at the top lifters and realize how
inconsequential maximizing early returns ends up being.

Simply put, the best lifters, with few exceptions, are the ones that are
consistent over many years; if I were coaching new trainees, I'd be
less concerned with an early caloric surplus and more concerned with
providing them with the tools and the mindset for making training
sustainable for the rest of their lives. If one lifter drinks a gallon
of milk a day during the first three months of training and another
doesn't, their progress after ten years will depend infinitely more on
who stays motivated and interested in training over that time, not who
drank their milk and put on weight at the beginning.

I couldn't agree more, or have put it any better than that.

 

[tkdyo]

In fact I'm pretty damn hungry right now and staying under 210 is a challenge but I do enjoy it. I enjoy the challenge of walking that calorie line where I'm maintaining a low BF yet still succeeding in the gym.

Im going to start doing that as well as soon as I reach being able to bench my body weight. Ive never been overly confident in upperbody strength, so I kind of want to play it safe haha. But seriously, I weigh 220 for the first time in my life and I was planning on staying around 200 or so when I started lifting back in september lol.