Difference between core strength when working out and core strength when fighting

[Banana&Coffee]

I need help understanding this.

On the surface, it stands to reason that if you can do, let's say, 20 perfect hanging leg raises with legs straight, full ROM and no swaying, even for multiple sets, or if you can do toes-to-bar or even windshield wipers, all while hanging, that your core should essentially be as close to impenetrable as possible against the force of body shots.

Yet, somehow, this often isn't the case.

Even though you reach the capacity to tighten up the 'corset' of core muscles as much as possible, to thicken up the padding of it and to maintain this with as little fatigue as possible, somehow, most people still get worn down easily from body shots.

Why is that?

How is it that such a huge dichotomy can exist between core strength when working out and core strength when fighting, between abs being under put huge amounts of strain via one thing versus another thing? It makes no sense to me.

Please keep answers respectful, please.

 

[thecoldbloodedone]

Good question.

From my observation/experience, its because most of the movements in the gym you described are fairly isolated to the core area, when most movements in combat sports are using the core within a kinetic chain from the feet through to the target or lever they are driving towards.

There are exercises you can do in the gym that are less isolated and are trying to mimic the kinetic chain of combat sports techniques, but often times its just a mind-muscle connection thing that gets lost when doing the real thing.
Plus the timing and speed required to execute a technique in the ring with perfect core engagement and land on an opponent, under pressure, and not sacrifice defense at the same time, its a perfect storm.

In terms of being able to sustain shots to the body, there are simply some areas like the liver which are very vulnerable and no amount of abdominal strength will protect that, especially when livers are inflamed from overtraining and weight cutting.

The solar flexus is very difficult to build muscle across, and strengthening it generally only assists with ability to breath and regulate nervous system.
Useful when you take a shot and have to poker face, but not impenetrable.

Again, if you get hit while relaxed, fatigued, exhaled and not properly hydrated, your ability to stay standing is reduced.

Plus lets face it, not everyone has the mental fortitude to get hit with a paralyzing painful body shot and just grit through it until they get some space to breath again.
You can train for it, but its very unpleasant, and most people avoid it.

 

[vision1]

Core strength does not equal protection from impact.
It helps but it's not the same thing at all.

 

[Flower2dPeople]

I need help understanding this.

On the surface, it stands to reason that if you can do, let's say, 20 perfect hanging leg raises with legs straight, full ROM and no swaying, even for multiple sets, or if you can do toes-to-bar or even windshield wipers, all while hanging, that your core should essentially be as close to impenetrable as possible against the force of body shots.

Yet, somehow, this often isn't the case.

Even though you reach the capacity to tighten up the 'corset' of core muscles as much as possible, to thicken up the padding of it and to maintain this with as little fatigue as possible, somehow, most people still get worn down easily from body shots.

Why is that?

How is it that such a huge dichotomy can exist between core strength when working out and core strength when fighting, between abs being under put huge amounts of strain via one thing versus another thing? It makes no sense to me.

Please keep answers respectful, please.

Core strength is for stability in doing movements that will otherwise make your lower back compensate if you have a weak core.

 

[Banana&Coffee]

Good question.

From my observation/experience, its because most of the movements in the gym you described are fairly isolated to the core area, when most movements in combat sports are using the core within a kinetic chain from the feet through to the target or lever they are driving towards.

There are exercises you can do in the gym that are less isolated and are trying to mimic the kinetic chain of combat sports techniques, but often times its just a mind-muscle connection thing that gets lost when doing the real thing.
Plus the timing and speed required to execute a technique in the ring with perfect core engagement and land on an opponent, under pressure, and not sacrifice defense at the same time, its a perfect storm.

In terms of being able to sustain shots to the body, there are simply some areas like the liver which are very vulnerable and no amount of abdominal strength will protect that, especially when livers are inflamed from overtraining and weight cutting.

The solar flexus is very difficult to build muscle across, and strengthening it generally only assists with ability to breath and regulate nervous system.
Useful when you take a shot and have to poker face, but not impenetrable.

Again, if you get hit while relaxed, fatigued, exhaled and not properly hydrated, your ability to stay standing is reduced.

Plus lets face it, not everyone has the mental fortitude to get hit with a paralyzing painful body shot and just grit through it until they get some space to breath again.
You can train for it, but its very unpleasant, and most people avoid it.

Core strength does not equal protection from impact.
It helps but it's not the same thing at all.

Core strength is for stability in doing movements that will otherwise make your lower back compensate if you have a weak core.

I see what you guys are saying and thanks for the replies.

In terms of transferring core strength from workout to martial arts, I do get that. Resistance band work is dead helpful for that sort of thing, for example.

But in terms of core strength not being too useful for body shots, I suppose that does make sense. It's just odd to me that it wouldn't help more. Why do people even bother going on about "rock hard abs".

 

[Flower2dPeople]

I see what you guys are saying and thanks for the replies.

In terms of transferring core strength from workout to martial arts, I do get that. Resistance band work is dead helpful for that sort of thing, for example.

But in terms of core strength not being too useful for body shots, I suppose that does make sense. It's just odd to me that it wouldn't help more. Why do people even bother going on about "rock hard abs".

"Rock hard abs" is just a manifestation low body fat percentage as a result of hard work or just plain genetics. Doesn't necessarily mean strong core.

 

[period]

To some degree, the question is similar to "how come I bench press XXX lbs, yet get tired shoulders in the ring?" One is having the strength to move in a certain plane, which will help various aspects of the game - power transfer, total power output, whatnot. But the other is a combination of factors.

First, taking impact is a skillset of its own, and it's not just about core strength. It's about how you are moving when you get hit, how gassed you are, whether you manage to contract the abs on impact... it's not like you could (or would want to) keep the abs fully contracted for 25 min straight. Second, the exercises you are describing aren't necessarily specific to the task, either. They say something about your core being able to create a certain amount of tension, but nothing about your body's ability to take one extremely hard body shot, let alone a couple hundred. When in doubt, I'd bet the guy whose coach insists on dropping a medicine ball on his abs for ten minutes at a time at the end of training is able to take more body shots, regardless of whether or not he can do a single hanging leg raise.

To finish with a quote from the movie "The Boxer":
- I've seen the strongest guys topple over in the ring like drunken elephants. Because they were relying on their muscles and nothing eise.
+ If my muscles aren't important, why do we spend so much time training them?
- So that you don't look like a total pussy in the ring. That was 30, keep going.

 

[Long Dark Blues]

Your core's main purpose is to stabilize your spine under load.

In combat sports your spine is in any manner and/or mode of flexion.

Protection from impact is minimal anywhere on your body.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

Part of it comes down to the ability to brace all the muscles of the core and to have them all working in sync.

Having visible abs or being able to do some calisthenic exercise(leg raises to crossbar, L-Sits, dragon flags, etc) is highly correlated with your bodyweight (the lower the easier) and bodyfat(lower the bodyfat the more pronounced the muscles appear). These exercises are not overly difficult when you're 140-175 lb so saying you can do 20 leg raises with good form is like saying I can squat my bodyweight. A better measure would be being able to do something like a planche, handstand push ups, etc. While they are also heavily reliant on bodyweight they force the core muscles to work far harder to stabilize and balance your body.

You need to train specificity to what you want. You probably recruit/engage far more muscles on a heavy deadlift or squat than you do on a high rep calisthenic movement.

Technique and conditioning will beat raw power or "ability to take a punch". Unless you're literally fighting someone twice your size/strength your skill set(foot work, slipping punches/kicks, etc) and conditioning(not getting gassed, not dropping your hands, not exposing your chin, not exposing sensitive areas, etc) will matter far more.

If you want to better engage your core, work up to 1-1.5x your bodyweight for squats and deadlifts and do high rep sets(20-100). Use rest pause. This is will train your core far harder. I would still train heavy during off season but that should be a relatively short block.

Use exercises that force your body to work as one unit such as explosive movements with a landmine or barbell (clean into press/jerk or overhead squats/snatches).

Do reactive exercises with a medicine / weighted ball as period suggested.

Rather than practicing taking punches I'd rather be working on hand eye reaction drills.

 

[Banana&Coffee]

To some degree, the question is similar to "how come I bench press XXX lbs, yet get tired shoulders in the ring?" One is having the strength to move in a certain plane, which will help various aspects of the game - power transfer, total power output, whatnot. But the other is a combination of factors.

First, taking impact is a skillset of its own, and it's not just about core strength. It's about how you are moving when you get hit, how gassed you are, whether you manage to contract the abs on impact... it's not like you could (or would want to) keep the abs fully contracted for 25 min straight. Second, the exercises you are describing aren't necessarily specific to the task, either. They say something about your core being able to create a certain amount of tension, but nothing about your body's ability to take one extremely hard body shot, let alone a couple hundred. When in doubt, I'd bet the guy whose coach insists on dropping a medicine ball on his abs for ten minutes at a time at the end of training is able to take more body shots, regardless of whether or not he can do a single hanging leg raise.

To finish with a quote from the movie "The Boxer":
- I've seen the strongest guys topple over in the ring like drunken elephants. Because they were relying on their muscles and nothing eise.
+ If my muscles aren't important, why do we spend so much time training them?
- So that you don't look like a total pussy in the ring. That was 30, keep going.

So is it more about training the strength of your abs' contractions as opposed to thickening up the abs via traditional workouts that makes all the difference? Aside from not getting hit in the first place, obviously.

Your core's main purpose is to stabilize your spine under load.

In combat sports your spine is in any manner and/or mode of flexion.

Protection from impact is minimal anywhere on your body.

I understand. I suppose where the root of my issue lies is in the unique design and positioning of the core muscles, surrounding areas of the body that facilitate digestion and breathing and would require protection. I know this is where the spine is also located, and the core muscles are meant to support the limbs as well, but I guess my fault is in taking 'protection' a bit too seriously.

Part of it comes down to the ability to brace all the muscles of the core and to have them all working in sync.

Having visible abs or being able to do some calisthenic exercise(leg raises to crossbar, L-Sits, dragon flags, etc) is highly correlated with your bodyweight (the lower the easier) and bodyfat(lower the bodyfat the more pronounced the muscles appear). These exercises are not overly difficult when you're 140-175 lb so saying you can do 20 leg raises with good form is like saying I can squat my bodyweight. A better measure would be being able to do something like a planche, handstand push ups, etc. While they are also heavily reliant on bodyweight they force the core muscles to work far harder to stabilize and balance your body.

You need to train specificity to what you want. You probably recruit/engage far more muscles on a heavy deadlift or squat than you do on a high rep calisthenic movement.

Technique and conditioning will beat raw power or "ability to take a punch". Unless you're literally fighting someone twice your size/strength your skill set(foot work, slipping punches/kicks, etc) and conditioning(not getting gassed, not dropping your hands, not exposing your chin, not exposing sensitive areas, etc) will matter far more.

If you want to better engage your core, work up to 1-1.5x your bodyweight for squats and deadlifts and do high rep sets(20-100). Use rest pause. This is will train your core far harder. I would still train heavy during off season but that should be a relatively short block.

Use exercises that force your body to work as one unit such as explosive movements with a landmine or barbell (clean into press/jerk or overhead squats/snatches).

Do reactive exercises with a medicine / weighted ball as period suggested.

Rather than practicing taking punches I'd rather be working on hand eye reaction drills.

Cheers.

Understanding all that, though, would lower-level calisthenics like the hanging leg raises still achieve similar results if done to very high reps and with the addition of weights? I'd assume this would help boost muscle recruitment as well. Only, I do enjoy doing these and don't want to remove them entirely from my training regime.

And just to clarify, compound movements actually are better than direct core work for engagement and conditioning? I feel like I've been lied to, because I've always been told otherwise at my gym. But it does make sense that squats and deadlifts under heavy loads would be a core killer in their own right.

Thanks for the videos. Between what you and period suggested, I am eager to train reaction time a bit more.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

So is it more about training the strength of your abs' contractions as opposed to thickening up the abs via traditional workouts that makes all the difference? Aside from not getting hit in the first place, obviously.

It's about strengthening all of your muscles(rectus abdominis, transverse abdominis, obliques, erector spinae, glutes, and hip flexors) and fascia as well as teaching the body to use all of them together. Light ab work doesn't work transverse abdominis particularly well. You're overly concerned with rectus abdominis and oblique muscles but transverse abdominis are just as important. Sure you could do planks/dead bugs or whatever other exercises but if you focus on doing strictly unweighted calisthenics then you're building muscle endurance with limited carryover to helping grow or strengthen the muscles. You'd need to either find a way to add resistance(weighted planks) or complexity(L-sits, V sits, etc).

I understand. I suppose where the root of my issue lies is in the unique design and positioning of the core muscles, surrounding areas of the body that facilitate digestion and breathing and would require protection. I know this is where the spine is also located, and the core muscles are meant to support the limbs as well, but I guess my fault is in taking 'protection' a bit too seriously.



Cheers.

Understanding all that, though, would lower-level calisthenics like the hanging leg raises still achieve similar results if done to very high reps and with the addition of weights? I'd assume this would help boost muscle recruitment as well. Only, I do enjoy doing these and don't want to remove them entirely from my training regime.

No. Unless you plan on adding weight in some way to continue challenging yourself while keeping the reps in a specific range. If you do weighted pull ups, push ups, dips, squats, muscle ups, or even leg raises (with bands or ankle weights as an example). But again it will work primarily your visible abs, hip flexors, etc rather than your transverse abs.

It's like asking if you can just do bodyweight squats for hundreds of reps and be just as strong as someone who can barbell squat 400, 500, 600 etc for 1. Your core strength and musculature will be very different. You can certainly train in a way to improve your CNS and existing muscle recruitment(e.g. isometric training). Training for higher reps has lots of benefits for fighters like improving strength endurance and lactic acid utilization by the muscles. In fact it is probably the preferable way to train most of the time however it just doesn't achieve what you may want. Your training always comes back to the SAID principle.

And just to clarify, compound movements actually are better than direct core work for engagement and conditioning? I feel like I've been lied to, because I've always been told otherwise at my gym. But it does make sense that squats and deadlifts under heavy loads would be a core killer in their own right.

It depends what you mean and what muscles. For being able to brace and grow all the deep muscles and fascia, I would venture a guess that heavy barbell lifts are probably much better on average. If you mean isolating specific muscles like rectus abdominis muscles then no. For example the bottom half of hanging leg raises works largely the hip flexors.

I have never consistently trained my abs. I'd throw some exercises here or there every now and then. Yet even now at my heaviest at 242 lb I can do L-sits for 10-20 seconds(on paralletes). I have also had a 6-8 pack for most of my adult life. That has far more to do with heavy barbell lifts and some weighted calisthenics lifts(dips, chin ups, push ups, muscles ups). Visible abs are largely a reflection of your bodyfat level.

Thanks for the videos. Between what you and period suggested, I am eager to train reaction time a bit more.

You're welcome and good luck in your training.

 

[godhatesacoward]

im just gonna be blunt: You're probably not used to the sensation of being punched in the stomach and not amount of core strength makes you outright IMMUNE to bodyshots mainly it's protection and helps a lot with prodocing punching power

 

[godhatesacoward]

im just gonna be blunt: You're probably not used to the sensation of being punched in the stomach and not amount of core strength makes you outright IMMUNE to bodyshots mainly it's protection and helps a lot with prodocing punching power

also I agree with the bodyweight point by devilson I do weighted leg raises personally and I think how much you could do for like weighted sit ups would be a better indicator

 

[Banana&Coffee]

It's about strengthening all of your muscles(rectus abdominis, transverse abdominis, obliques, erector spinae, glutes, and hip flexors) and fascia as well as teaching the body to use all of them together. Light ab work doesn't work transverse abdominis particularly well. You're overly concerned with rectus abdominis and oblique muscles but transverse abdominis are just as important. Sure you could do planks/dead bugs or whatever other exercises but if you focus on doing strictly unweighted calisthenics then you're building muscle endurance with limited carryover to helping grow or strengthen the muscles. You'd need to either find a way to add resistance(weighted planks) or complexity(L-sits, V sits, etc).


No. Unless you plan on adding weight in some way to continue challenging yourself while keeping the reps in a specific range. If you do weighted pull ups, push ups, dips, squats, muscle ups, or even leg raises (with bands or ankle weights as an example). But again it will work primarily your visible abs, hip flexors, etc rather than your transverse abs.

It's like asking if you can just do bodyweight squats for hundreds of reps and be just as strong as someone who can barbell squat 400, 500, 600 etc for 1. Your core strength and musculature will be very different. You can certainly train in a way to improve your CNS and existing muscle recruitment(e.g. isometric training). Training for higher reps has lots of benefits for fighters like improving strength endurance and lactic acid utilization by the muscles. In fact it is probably the preferable way to train most of the time however it just doesn't achieve what you may want. Your training always comes back to the SAID principle.



It depends what you mean and what muscles. For being able to brace and grow all the deep muscles and fascia, I would venture a guess that heavy barbell lifts are probably much better on average. If you mean isolating specific muscles like rectus abdominis muscles then no. For example the bottom half of hanging leg raises works largely the hip flexors.

I have never consistently trained my abs. I'd throw some exercises here or there every now and then. Yet even now at my heaviest at 242 lb I can do L-sits for 10-20 seconds(on paralletes). I have also had a 6-8 pack for most of my adult life. That has far more to do with heavy barbell lifts and some weighted calisthenics lifts(dips, chin ups, push ups, muscles ups). Visible abs are largely a reflection of your bodyfat level.



You're welcome and good luck in your training.

So why is the transverse abdominis so important? And these other muscles you mentioned? Also, what exercises would you say are the best for the transverse abdominis? Weighted planks I can do, but I don't see deadbugs lending themselves as easily to adding weights. I have wanted to work up to L- and V-sits, however. Would dragon flags, pike extensions and hollow body exercises also help? What about deadlifts and weighted carries? I know you mentioned squats as being primarily rectus abdominis-focused, among other exercises, but would they still help to some degree with the transverse abdominis?

im just gonna be blunt: You're probably not used to the sensation of being punched in the stomach and not amount of core strength makes you outright IMMUNE to bodyshots mainly it's protection and helps a lot with prodocing punching power

also I agree with the bodyweight point by devilson I do weighted leg raises personally and I think how much you could do for like weighted sit ups would be a better indicator

Thanks, and noted.

 

[Devil's_Advocate]

So why is the transverse abdominis so important?

I'll save myself a bit of time typing and just copy / paste first google entry:

"The transverse abdominis (TVA) functions as your body's deep internal corset, stabilizing the lower back and pelvis, supporting organs, and aiding in breathing and core stability, working with other muscles to create intra-abdominal pressure for movement, posture, and functions like forced exhalation, urination, and childbirth. It's crucial for preventing back pain and maintaining good posture by compressing the abdomen and stabilizing the spine."

As you can tell this is a very important muscle and plays many roles.

And these other muscles you mentioned?

Likewise the other muscles help you move, stabilize, brace etc.

Also, what exercises would you say are the best for the transverse abdominis?

Squats, Deadlifts, OHP, Lanndmine Overhead Press, Landmine Twists/Rainbows, etc.

Essentially think of big compound barbell exercises and chances are they work this muscle. Even a less common exercise like Turkish Get Ups will likewise work this muscle very hard and with relatively light weight.

Weighted planks I can do, but I don't see deadbugs lending themselves as easily to adding weights.

You can add weight to dead bugs just as well by holding weight with you hands (DBs/KBs) and/or isometrically holding bands with your feet/hands. You can use your imagination to find different ways of adding resistance. However planks are probably the more straightforward/easier option.

I have wanted to work up to L- and V-sits, however. Would dragon flags, pike extensions and hollow body exercises also help?

Yes these can work as well. A variety of training is always a good idea.

What about deadlifts and weighted carries?

Yes these are some of the very best options.

I know you mentioned squats as being primarily rectus abdominis-focused, among other exercises, but would they still help to some degree with the transverse abdominis?

Squats, deadlifts, etc work all of these muscles in one way or another. Yes Squats work the muscle very hard.

 

[period]

So is it more about training the strength of your abs' contractions as opposed to thickening up the abs via traditional workouts that makes all the difference? Aside from not getting hit in the first place, obviously.

I wouldn't say that. I think you are overthinking this a bit, and attributing too much impact on the role of strength training overall.
Let me put it like this: strength and conditioning (S&C, which falls under general physical preparation / GPP) are meant to support your fight specific training (which includes specific physical preparation / SPP), nothing more. No number in the weightroom will ever "guarantee" that you are able to do X in the ring. Instead, what you do is analyze your strengths and weaknesses in the ring, and little by little try to improve both of them, by also tweaking what you do outside of fight specific training. So, the hierarchy of importance is: sparring < drilling < SPP < S&C. There are many different views on this, but the way I was taught, the idea is that your GPP is supposed to allow you to work harder on your SPP, which in turn feeds your drilling, which again should lead to better sparring. Drilling and sparring is what wins or loses your fights, the rest is just "training in order to be able to train better".
As for what makes adequate GPP and SPP, there are a million different approaches. The traditional approach in boxing used to be tons of crunches and med ball work, which worked fine. Then, we had the new school of thought (made popular by Ross Enamait among others), which put a bigger emphasis on harder exercises and less load. For example, Ross is a big fan of standing AB wheel rollouts for core (he also shows them with one arm, wearing a weighted vest etc.). Then, we have seen some fighters who like to do their strength work like powerlifters, and it worked for some of them, too. Is any approach going to work equally well for everybody? Likely not, unless it gives you a ton of individual leeway, and takes into account your injury history etc.
We could all go on and on about our favourite ways to skin the cat here, but as far as I'm concerned, the fact remains: if your GPP doesn't lead to better SPP, which in turn should lead to more drilling at higher intensity, which again should lead to more productive (not necessarily more - sparring is the one thing where quality is much more important than quantity) sparring, then something is off, and it's the job of you and your coaches to correct this. Does that mean what you worked on was worthless? Probably not, but you probably hit the point of diminishing returns, and should focus on something else. And again, there are likely multiple approaches that would fix your problem, all you need to do is pick one, stick to it for a while, and then evaluate the results.

 

[Trabaho]

Just train ?

Doing crunches and getting hit to the mid section are two pair of shoes. When you fight you are also tired and don't know when exactly the shots come.
There is no body shot immunity.