International Did COVID come from a Lab in China? US Energy Dept asserts it was a lab leak [megathread]

[DavidsGhost]

Because 1 is lying and being called on it from every media outlet

While the other is censoring the truth at all levels.

And again, the irony of you continually bringing up Trump's lies in a thread about him speaking honestly and dweebs like you calling him a liar back then. So on this issue he was honest while you were lying.

Shit writes itself

Your issue with the media then, as far as I can tell, is that they are understood to be gate keepers of what is true. And those who follow any particular outlet accept that particular account of “truth” without much scrutiny. So they have a special power in crafting public opinion and should be held to higher standards.


Fair enough.



But the same applies to presidents, they have a special power in crafting public opinion. And while not gate keepers of truth, they do have an outsized influence on ideological positions. And that’s at least as significant, if not more, than the media’s role in shaping narratives about what is and isn’t true.



so, point being, those mean tweets you dismiss off hand are more than just noise if we’re being consistent about why it’s important for influential people and orgs to tell the truth

 

[The Audience]

His first statement says "The other requires only for biology to behave as it always has". Requires only. As in, if left to its own devices, viruses will mutate and jump species. Which is true. His second statement then says that humans are hiding from the blame...its us that caused this. That statement is unsupported by anything in his article. The origins of Covid-19 are not determined. There is no evidence it was caused by miners or by habitat destruction. In fact, its the exact opposite...the nearest strain of it isolated from bats were found in an incredibly remote region China far away from any civilization.

'Only' refers to a simpler explanation with good precedent, compared with the complicated cover-up scenario tied to a lab-leak. The second statement is a general (and important) point following an external quote [“We have known for years that resource extraction and human expansion into wildlife habitats could lead to emergent zoonotic diseases"], that a focus on a speculative lab-leak theory, distracts from the contribution that interfering and destructive human activities have on increasing the chances of these natural spillovers, which leaves us vulnerable to future pandemics.

 

[PhitePhan]

'Only' refers to a simpler explanation with good precedent, compared with the complicated cover-up scenario tied to a lab-leak. The second statement is a general (and important) point following an external quote [“We have known for years that resource extraction and human expansion into wildlife habitats could lead to emergent zoonotic diseases"], that a focus on a speculative lab-leak theory, distracts from the contribution that interfering and destructive human activities have on increasing the chances of these natural spillovers, which leaves us vulnerable to future pandemics.

What you are describing is speculation (naturally occurring disease) and the suppression of an inconvenient opposing theory (lab leak) in order to push a separate political agenda (“humans are bad, mkay”).

Only a hack or a dupe would carry water for such tactics...

 

[CantCucktheTuck]

It's funny how all the new evidence that has made old joe restart the investigation was released back in January.

 

[Hadron90]

'Only' refers to a simpler explanation with good precedent, compared with the complicated cover-up scenario tied to a lab-leak. The second statement is a general (and important) point following an external quote [“We have known for years that resource extraction and human expansion into wildlife habitats could lead to emergent zoonotic diseases"], that a focus on a speculative lab-leak theory, distracts from the contribution that interfering and destructive human activities have on increasing the chances of these natural spillovers, which leaves us vulnerable to future pandemics.

Vice versa, focusing on natural emergence distracts us from the dangers human pose by conducting gain-of-function research. Even if it is one day determined that this virus did have completely natural origins, its still only a matter of time before artificial viruses leak from a lab like the Wuhan one. One a long enough timeline, its a certainty.

 

[ocean size]

Vice versa, focusing on natural emergence distracts us from the dangers human pose by conducting gain-of-function research. Even if it is one day determined that this virus did have completely natural origins, its still only a matter of time before artificial viruses leak from a lab like the Wuhan one. One a long enough timeline, its a certainty.

Given an infinite timeline sure, anything that can happen will no matter what safeguards are in place. But research gets conducted on virulent pathogens all the time. In this case the naturally emerging pandemic pathogens are also an inevitable on a not that long timescale, given increases in wildlife trade and distance and rates of travel, evidence by the rate near misses have been happening.

GoF research may be theo onlyway to understand the mechanisms that these inevitable natural emerging diseases have before they emerge. e.g. producing vaccines that are effective across a range of potentially emergent CoVs before they happen.

Is it worth it? I don't know. But there are downsides to not doing is what I mean.

 

[Hadron90]

Given an infinite timeline sure. But research gets conducted on virulent pathogens all the time. In this case the naturally emerging pandemic pathogens are also an inevitably with increases in wildlife trade and distance and rates of travel. And GoF research may be the
only way to understand the mechanisms that these inevitable natural emerging diseases have before they emerge. e.g. producing vaccines that are effective across a range of potentially emergent CoVs before they happen.

Is it worth it? I don't know. But there are downsides to not doing it as well is what I mean.

And I'm not arguing against GoF research. I'm saying that we have all seen Jurassic Park, and we know that life finds a way. Lab leaks of artificial viruses aren't conspiracies, they are inevitabilities. So the next step is, can we rule it out? China isn't helping us do that...that are censoring the scientsits and doctors (even jailing them), blocking all international scientists from even entering the country, refusing to cooperate with any international inquiries, and even spreading bizarre conspiracy theories themselves about how it arrived in China in frozen food packages, or was released by the US military during military games. So that's where we are...we have two plausible theories, and no evidence to distinguish between them. China blocking any attempts to study the virus' origin makes me kinda suspect the lab leak theory, even if probability favors the natural origin theory.

 

[PhitePhan]

Given an infinite timeline sure, anything that can happen will no matter what safeguards are in place...

The Long History of Accidental Laboratory Releases of Potential Pandemic Pathogens Is Being Ignored In the COVID-19
https://www.independentsciencenews....ory-releases-of-potential-pandemic-pathogens/

A brief, terrifying history of viruses escaping from labs: 70s Chinese pandemic was a lab mistake
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nation...wcm/d66182f3-8080-445f-9bb2-5ae107940d22/amp/

 

[ocean size]

The Long History of Accidental Laboratory Releases of Potential Pandemic Pathogens Is Being Ignored In the COVID-19
https://www.independentsciencenews....ory-releases-of-potential-pandemic-pathogens/

A brief, terrifying history of viruses escaping from labs: 70s Chinese pandemic was a lab mistake
https://www.google.com/amp/s/nation...wcm/d66182f3-8080-445f-9bb2-5ae107940d22/amp/

Sure, not disputing it. But again, virulent pathogens get studied all the time. And naturally emerging potentially pandemic diseases are also at least as inevitable as lab leaks. And studying pandemic-type pathogens in the lab is sometimes critical, e.g. there can be risks to not doing it. Potential risk:reward determines whether or not it is wise because there can be risks to both doing it and not doing it.

For example, smallpox has a pretty poor risk:reward ratio because it is eradicated in the wild and we don't vaccinate against it, so dicking around with it in labs has little reward relative to the risk of starting a pandemic on a naive population since we aren't in urgent need of a new understanding of it.

For CoVs though I reckon there is definitely risks to not studying them in the lab. There is no real reason this one (COVID-19) couldn't have been even worse - 'the big' one, e.g. 10x higher mortality rates and the same virulence. So I'm not so sure it isn't worth figuring out how to make a pan-CoV vaccine against strains that haven't yet emerged. There's levels to it though, I am not saying gain of function research is indispensable, but even without gain of function, there's routine disease surveillance which is essential but still has risks.

 

[Mr Holmes]

NYT "reporter" here

 

[SheetsMMAfan]

NYT "reporter" here

Love my wife and kids, but I am thinking this world needs to hit the giant reset button sometimes....

 

[Hadron90]

 

[GearSolidMetal]

@Madmick

This is huge.

EXCLUSIVE: COVID-19 'has NO credible natural ancestor' and WAS created by Chinese scientists who then tried to cover their tracks with 'retro-engineering' to make it seem like it naturally arose from bats, explosive new study claims

• An explosive new study claims researchers found 'unique fingerprints' in COVID-19 samples that they say could only have arisen from manipulation in a laboratory
• DailyMail.com exclusively obtained the new 22-page paper authored by British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen set to be published in the Quarterly Review of Biophysics Discovery
• The study showed there's evidence to suggest Chinese scientists created the virus while working on a Gain of Function project in a Wuhan lab
• Gain of Function research, which was temporarily outlawed in the US, involves altering naturally-occurring viruses to make them more infectious in order to study their potential effects on humans
• According to the paper, Chinese scientists took a natural coronavirus 'backbone' found in Chinese cave bats and spliced onto it a new 'spike', turning it into the deadly and highly transmissible COVID-19
• The researchers, who concluded that COVID-19 'has no credible natural ancestor', also believe scientists reverse-engineered versions of the virus to cover up their tracks
• 'We think that there have been retro-engineered viruses created,' Dalgleish told DailyMail.com. 'They've changed the virus, then tried to make out it was in a sequence years ago.'
• The study also points to 'deliberate destruction, concealment or contamination of data' in Chinese labs and notes that 'scientists who wished to share their findings haven't been able to do so or have disappeared'
• Until recently, most experts had staunchly denied the origins of the virus were anything other than a natural infection leaping from animals to humans
• Earlier this week, Dr. Anthony Fauci defended US funding of the Wuhan Institute of Virology, saying the $600,000 grant was not approved for Gain of Function research

An explosive new study claims that Chinese scientists created COVID-19 in a Wuhan lab, then tried to cover their tracks by reverse-engineering versions of the virus to make it look like it evolved naturally from bats.

The paper's authors, British Professor Angus Dalgleish and Norwegian scientist Dr. Birger Sørensen, wrote that they have had 'prima facie evidence of retro-engineering in China' for a year - but were ignored by academics and major journals.

Dalgleish is a professor of oncology at St George's University, London, and is best known for his breakthrough creating the first working 'HIV vaccine', to treat diagnosed patients and allow them to go off medication for months.

Sørensen, a virologist, is chair of pharmaceutical company, Immunor, which developed a coronavirus vaccine candidate called Biovacc-19. Dalgleish also has share options in the firm.

The shocking allegations in the study include accusations of 'deliberate destruction, concealment or contamination of data' at Chinese labs, and it notes the silencing and disappearance of scientists in the communist country who spoke out.

The journal article, exclusively obtained by DailyMail.com and slated for publication in the coming days, is set to make waves among the scientific community, as the majority of experts have until recently staunchly denied the origins of COVID-19 were anything other than a natural infection leaping from animals to humans.

Direct Link to entire article -

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...w-study-claims.html?__twitter_impression=true

 

[HOLA]

And again, the irony of you continually bringing up Trump's lies in a thread about him speaking honestly and dweebs like you calling him a liar back then.

Trump The Boy Who Cried Wolfed himself with Covid, if it does in fact originate in a lab. When you spread so many easily refuted lies and unfounded claims - telling us it will go away with warm weather, one day like a miracle it will disappear, try injecting disinfectants and a light bulb enema - and turned his own White House into a Covid hot spot, what do you expect?

Trump even is on tape explicitly telling Woodward he purposely mislead people on Covid.

When asked to present evidence that showed the virus originated in a lab, Trump said, "I can’t tell you that. I’m not allowed to tell you that.”

This is all the more reason why honesty is a virtue we should seek in a leader, or at the very least, not pathological lying.

 

[Madmick]

Trump The Boy Who Cried Wolfed himself with Covid, if it does in fact originate in a lab. When you spread so many easily refuted lies and unfounded claims - telling us it will go away with warm weather, one day like a miracle it will disappear, try injecting disinfectants and a light bulb enema - and turned his own White House into a Covid hot spot, what do you expect?

Trump even is on tape explicitly telling Woodward he purposely mislead people on Covid.

When asked to present evidence that showed the virus originated in a lab, Trump said, "I can’t tell you that. I’m not allowed to tell you that.”

This is all the more reason why honesty is a virtue we should seek in a leader, or at the very least, not pathological lying.

What do we expect? The capacity to think critically. If you don't define your beliefs by couching them in an emotional reaction to someone you dislike, bleeting like a sheep with the CNN confirmation bias chorus, then father time won't visit you in the future to slap you around.

Another recent example. Remember when the press reacted with horror at Trump's decision to withdraw from the Open Skies treaty, and Biden himself condemned the decision, saying, "Trump has doubled down on his short-sighted policy of going it alone and abandoning American leadership. With the world confronting the health and economic consequences of a global pandemic, the United States should be leading the international community, working with allies, and avoiding destabilizing actions." Turns out he was feeding the sheep.
https://apnews.com/article/donald-t...and-politics-69038e96de8488f2c759b126c27d1366

Same thing happened with the Iranian nuclear treaty.

The wet market theory was never absurd, and I'm glad it shined an uncomfortable light on China's abuse of animals, but that doesn't mean the lab theory was outrageous just because Trump championed it. Didn't he already flip the Democratic party on China writ large? I remember the press telling us China was our friend in 2015. Outside a few hawks like Pelosi that's been their tune for decades. Suddenly, seemingly overnight, Democrats are delivering anti-Chinese sermons, and hoping no one will notice Trump beat them to the punch.

This is why I got sick of the hysterical rhetoric surrounding Trump. It became so obvious it was saturated in a paroxysm of irrational wokeism. It's reasonable to expect people to tune this out.

 

[HOLA]

This is why I got sick of the hysterical rhetoric surrounding Trump. It became so obvious it was saturated in a paroxysm of irrational wokeism.

I dunno. He's received strong condemnations from people like Mitch McConnel and liz Cheney, Ted Cruz and Lindsay Graham, at various times. Not to mention members of his own inner circle like Rex Tillerson and Gary Cohn. Or his own sister.

Seems possible to think the man is a douche without "paroxysms of irrational wokeism."

 

[Madmick]

I dunno. He's received strong condemnations from people like Mitch McConnel and liz Cheney, Ted Cruz and Lindsay Graham, at various times. Not to mention members of his own inner circle like Rex Tillerson and Gary Cohn. Or his own sister.

Seems possible to think the man is a douche without "paroxysms of irrational wokeism."

That has no bearing on how you should assess world events and the decisions our leaders make in response to them on an issue by issue basis.

 

[Fluffernutter]

When Obama banned funding for gain of function research, did he put an expiration date on that ban?

Why did the NIH start refunding the research once Obama left office?

 

[Mr Holmes]

https://www.zerohedge.com/covid-19/...n-prove-covid-19-man-made-no-credible-natural
British professor Angus Dalgleish - best known for creating the world's first 'HIV vaccine', and Norwegian virologist Dr. Birger Sørensen - chair of pharmaceutical company, Immunor, who has published 31 peer-reviewed papers and holds several patents, wrote that while analyzing virus samples last year, the pair discovered "unique fingerprints" in the form of "six inserts" created through gain-of-function research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology in China.

They also conclude that "SARS-Coronavirus-2 has "no credible natural ancestor" and that it is "beyond reasonable doubt" that the virus was created via "laboratory manipulation."

 

[SBJJ]

Trump The Boy Who Cried Wolfed himself with Covid, if it does in fact originate in a lab. When you spread so many easily refuted lies and unfounded claims - telling us it will go away with warm weather, one day like a miracle it will disappear, try injecting disinfectants and a light bulb enema - and turned his own White House into a Covid hot spot, what do you expect?

Trump even is on tape explicitly telling Woodward he purposely mislead people on Covid.

When asked to present evidence that showed the virus originated in a lab, Trump said, "I can’t tell you that. I’m not allowed to tell you that.”

This is all the more reason why honesty is a virtue we should seek in a leader, or at the very least, not pathological lying.

It's as if you are under a damn rock and not seeing what is happening in real time.

This thread is not about Trump's lies. Or Biden's. Or the Bush's. So get the fuck back on topic. Or go seek a TDS thread