Did BJJ takedowns change over the years?

[Title Fight Productions]

A perfect example was Hackney vs Gracie. I'm watching that like "that's a bjj takedown?!"

It was almost exactly like in grade school wrestling when you're doing these early takedown drills and some (pretty much most kids) have no idea what to do and the attempted takedown is this kludgy looking attempt.

Hackney was a smart fighter and the first guy to give Royce some real trouble. He implemented a Sprawl-n-Brawl gameplan, just didn't have the skill to see it thru. Did Hackney ever really get taken down in that fight or did he just not disengage when in the clinch with Royce falling in front of him?

 

[Title Fight Productions]

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But my thought was that if you had a wrestler who 99% of the time should be able to keep a fight standing against a bjj guy.... add some striking and a guy like Royce would have got smoked out.
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Or......... If you had a BJJ guy, add some striking which forces the wrestler to take you down into your world of Subs.

see it works both ways.

This is going to sound so cocky.... but if Hackney had just a basic wrestling background he would have beat Royce

So true, he sure was giving Royce trouble there for a bit!

 

[Title Fight Productions]

How is a wrestler going to keep the match standing when the other guy just sits? He can keep himself standing, yes, but not the opponent or the match. And once the BJJ guy sits, playing open guard against a standing opponent is his world, not the wrestler's.

You can stay standing against my guard pull, but unless you are running away to avoid engaging I will heel hook the hell out of you. 'Avoiding' a guard pull doesn't actually make a lot of sense, since you can't stop me from pulling and now I've gone to guard whether you like it or not.

Until he gets kicked square in the head!

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Yeah because wrestling teaches you how to kick a downed opponent so effectively.

 

[Title Fight Productions]

I think one issue here is the thread starter is looking at this from a wrestling takedown perspective when BJJ is usually going to have a Judo takedown emphasis since BJJ is essentially Judo.

 

[Uchi Mata]

I think one issue here is the thread starter is looking at this from a wrestling takedown perspective when BJJ is usually going to have a Judo takedown emphasis since BJJ is essentially Judo.

Please stop saying that. It's not true. The rule sets are so different it would be likely saying 'freestyle is basically greco-roman'. The TDs I use in Judo competition and the ones I use in BJJ have only ~25% overlap. I'd have more overlap between TDs between a wrestling match and a BJJ match than a BJJ match and a Judo match.

 

[georgejjr]

So i guess my question: early on did bjj schools not teach solid take downs? Like wrestling take downs. Just assuming "well, if you're fighting a wrestler they'll want to take you down regardless, voila"
Or did that element of bjj develop over the years?

There's not really such a thing as a BJJ takedown (or a wrestling takedown or a judo takedown), any more than there's such a thing as a BJJ choke (or a catch choke or a judo choke). Any successful technique is very quickly grabbed by people of every style (and most of the basics have been around since at least ancient Greece, judging but what we see on Grecian Urns and medieval manuscripts).

For example, the Kimura is a ude-garami is a double wristlock.

What changes between styles is the emphasis they put on a technique in training. If athletes in a style spend a lot of time on a particular technique (say a double leg), in general they're going to be a lot better at it than athletes from a style that doesn't spend a lot of time on it. This becomes amplified, because an instructor who never spends much time learning a technique is likely to both pass on poor technique and poor training methods for it.

Nowadays, what with the Internet (which Royce and company didn't have available to them when they started the early UFC's), and how wide spread MMA has become this has become even more pronounced - people see what works, and study it. Including bringing in guys who are good at doing it.

Styles are blending. This always went on. Kano happily admitted to taking from both Japanese ju-jitsu and western wrestling (he was a prof, and this is what profs do - you're an idiot if you ignore Newtonian mechanics because Newton wasn't from your school of physics). The Gracies stole from him and many other styles. Most MMA camps steal from anyone who looks effective.