Did BJJ takedowns change over the years?

[MC Paul Barman]

I was a sophmore in high school when the first UFC available was aired on TV.
I think the first one that my cable provider (Jones Intercable) even carried was UFC 3. Where I lived you just couldn't get the earlier ones on PPV.

I used to wrestle. Wrestled in grade school, middle school, and high school.
I would watch the UFC with a bunch of other friends, some who also wrestled, and back then we always thought that the BJJ takedowns were so flimsy.

From my perspective back then it looked like the bjj guy would just form up against his opponent and then try to drop to his back to get him stuck in the guard. I just couldn't see a good wrestler even struggling to avoid that.

And when they did shoot for a leg, the shoots looks so clumsy.

Then I started college in 1996 and there were a few guys who had gotten into bjj because of those early UFCs. The typical "bjjer would beat a wrestler" would come up alot.

We'd mess around not seriously fighting each other. But again, when these guys would try a take down it would be so flimsy. If I or another wrestler just wanted to keep it standing I'd say the chances were certainly great that the bjjer would not be able to take down the wrestler.

Cross training was already happening in 96 with many MMA fighters. But even before that it seemed like such an easy combination: wrestling and boxing or wrestling and kickboxing.... and there's no way a bjjer would win with that tool alone.

So i guess my question: early on did bjj schools not teach solid take downs? Like wrestling take downs. Just assuming "well, if you're fighting a wrestler they'll want to take you down regardless, voila"
Or did that element of bjj develop over the years?

 

[milliniar]

watch pure bjj guys like jacare maia and rolles and Roger gracie their takedowns are still "flimsy" so no it hasn't evolved. it is just cross/MMA training that has

 

[CajunJudoka]

Jacare, Maia, and Roger are ALL Judo black belts. Rolles could be too, I don't know. You don't train Jiu Jitsu to get good at takedowns period.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

Jacare, Maia, and Roger are ALL Judo black belts. Rolles could be too, I don't know. You don't train Jiu Jitsu to get good at takedowns period.

I'm not trying to bash jj....
I'm just making the observation that I made years back.

 

[BJJArsenal]

BJJ takedowns are still lacking. However, there are very good takedown artists in BJJ. Marcelo Garcia has no wrestling background and was only a judo player in his teens for a few years, but his wrestling style takedowns are solid. Admittedly, there is a video on his website of him sparring wrestling with Johnny Hendricks who takes him down fairly easily, but there are lots of wrestlers Hendricks could take down at will too.

EDIT: I should mention however that Marcelo is considered one of the greatest BJJ players of all time.

 

[CajunJudoka]

I'm not trying to bash jj....
I'm just making the observation that I made years back.

I know you weren't but the poster below you doesn't have a clue about what he is typing.

Carry on.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

A perfect example was Hackney vs Gracie. I'm watching that like "that's a bjj takedown?!"

It was almost exactly like in grade school wrestling when you're doing these early takedown drills and some (pretty much most kids) have no idea what to do and the attempted takedown is this kludgy looking attempt.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

I see great wrestlers struggle against guard pulls all the time. How does wrestling prepare you for a guy that sits to his ass as soon or often before you make contact?

 

[ChainFlow]

I see great wrestlers struggle against guard pulls all the time. How does wrestling prepare you for a guy that sits to his ass as soon or often before you make contact?

Seemed to work out well for Saku when he fought Royce.

Guard sitting is only an issue when you are arbitrarily forced to engage a grounded opponent on their terms.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

I see great wrestlers struggle against guard pulls all the time. How does wrestling prepare you for a guy that sits to his ass as soon or often before you make contact?

I don't wrestle anymore. I'm not trying to say that wrestling is better than bjj in all respects.

I'm only talking about takedowns.


Back then it was more of a cross training thought. I 'get' that if the wrestler takes the bjj fella down then it's a different game. Early UFCs with some of those wrestlers rolling to their stomachs as soon as the bjjer got on top clearly showed one flaw in just wrestling.

But my thought was that if you had a wrestler who 99% of the time should be able to keep a fight standing against a bjj guy.... add some striking and a guy like Royce would have got smoked out.
This is going to sound so cocky.... but if Hackney had just a basic wrestling background he would have beat Royce.

 

[Balto]

I see great wrestlers struggle against guard pulls all the time. How does wrestling prepare you for a guy that sits to his ass as soon or often before you make contact?

Back when I was a white belt, I flying armbarred one of the varsity guys from Pitt in a no gi tournament. According to the general consensus here, a white belt should have been absolutely wrecked by a D1 wrestler, but somehow it didn't quite work out that way.

BJJ guys have plenty of options for dealing with pure wrestlers.

 

[o'dubhlaoich]

Look at guys like Royce & Rickson. Those guys had nice takedowns from the clinch. Does anyone in this thread that trains even practice those types of clinch entries? BJJ has turned into a bunch of but floppers. Its a sad state when an art claims to be a grappling art and yet most of the best practitioners have shitty to zero takedowns. Butt flop away.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

Look at guys like Royce & Rickson. Those guys had nice takedowns from the clinch. Does anyone in this thread that trains even practice those types of clinch entries? BJJ has turned into a bunch of but floppers. Its a sad state when an art claims to be a grappling art and yet most of the best practitioners have shitty to zero takedowns. Butt flop away.

Royce had good takedowns fromt the clinch?
I can't comment on Rickson.

But from what I remember Royce's takedowns looked very weak.
not all of his attempts were like this fight with Hackney.... but those attempts against Hackney (eventhough one eventually worked) were laughably bad.

 

[BJJArsenal]

I know you weren't but the poster below you doesn't have a clue about what he is typing.

Carry on.

Why do you say that?

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

I don't wrestle anymore. I'm not trying to say that wrestling is better than bjj in all respects.

I'm only talking about takedowns.

This is your exact quote

From my perspective back then it looked like the bjj guy would just form up against his opponent and then try to drop to his back to get him stuck in the guard. I just couldn't see a good wrestler even struggling to avoid that.

How does wrestling avoid a guard pull, when wrestling doesn't train to deal with guard pulls? According to you, good wrestlers wouldn't even struggle avoiding it.

 

[MC Paul Barman]

This is your exact quote



How does wrestling avoid a guard pull, when wrestling doesn't train to deal with guard pulls? According to you, good wrestlers wouldn't even struggle avoiding it.

Disagree if you'd like.... If a wrestler wanted to keep a fight standing against a bjjer I don't see a guard pull as being all that big of a foil to the wrestler's intention. I just don't see it.

 

[Ice 9 Cobra]

Disagree if you'd like.... If a wrestler wanted to keep a fight standing against a bjjer I don't see a guard pull as being all that big of a foil to the wrestler's intention. I just don't see it.

How is a wrestler going to keep the match standing when the other guy just sits? He can keep himself standing, yes, but not the opponent or the match. And once the BJJ guy sits, playing open guard against a standing opponent is his world, not the wrestler's.

 

[CajunJudoka]

Why do you say that?

Because 3 of 4 people(examples) he used were all Judo BB's so his statement of pure BJJ is false if you are going to use those guys as examples.

 

[CajunJudoka]

Look at guys like Royce & Rickson. Those guys had nice takedowns from the clinch. Does anyone in this thread that trains even practice those types of clinch entries? BJJ has turned into a bunch of but floppers. Its a sad state when an art claims to be a grappling art and yet most of the best practitioners have shitty to zero takedowns. Butt flop away.

Rickson trained Judo with George Mehdi and MANY other Gracie's did too.
Rolls, Rickson, wrestled and trained Judo.

 

[BJJArsenal]

Because 3 of 4 people(examples) he used were all Judo BB's so his statement of pure BJJ is false if you are going to use those guys as examples.

Oh, sorry, I agree with you. I thought you were talking about my Marcelo example because I also posted underneath the TS.