Did BJJ takedowns change over the years?

[Il Wop-O]

Look at guys like Royce & Rickson. Those guys had nice takedowns from the clinch. Does anyone in this thread that trains even practice those types of clinch entries? BJJ has turned into a bunch of but floppers. Its a sad state when an art claims to be a grappling art and yet most of the best practitioners have shitty to zero takedowns. Butt flop away.

Some of us still do.

My partner & I just ran a belt test for blues and purples last Friday, and 45 minutes of the three hour test was on takedowns. Singles, doubles, and then primarily Judo - 2 variations of seionage, tai otoshi, o goshi, harai goshi, tomonage, osoto gari, kosoto gari, kouchi gari, tomo nage, etc. Now, we are not a Judo school, we are a BJJ school that realizes that it's foolish to learn a grappling art without learning how to force the fight to the ground.

 

[Uchi Mata]

As a rule, BJJ TDs are pretty bad. Gi competitions are a much bigger deal than no gi in the BJJ world with the exception of ADCC, so Judo style throws tend to be better than wrestling TDs, and small guys typically pull guard so they emphasize TDs even less. Some BJJ guys have good TDs, but not from BJJ. They essentially all cross train in Judo or wrestling. Royce is an especially bad example because he trained primarily self defense style BJJ which relies on a small number of TDs which are not terribly effective in an MMA context. Mostly clinch and trips, hip tosses, with some leg shots which are not that emphasized.

But in the early UFCs Royce only had to get the fight to the ground whether on top or on bottom because no one else knew BJJ. Now everyone does, and you won't see many BJJ guys with bad TDs try to make BJJ work in MMA. Maybe Kron will try, but if does he'll get killed.

 

[Wanderlei Industries]

Wait.........so you're saying that grappling style that focuses heavily on takedowns in comparison to BJJ has practitioners that are better at taking people down on the feet?

What other mind-blowing insights are you willing to share with us?

 

[Uchi Mata]

Disagree if you'd like.... If a wrestler wanted to keep a fight standing against a bjjer I don't see a guard pull as being all that big of a foil to the wrestler's intention. I just don't see it.

You can stay standing against my guard pull, but unless you are running away to avoid engaging I will heel hook the hell out of you. 'Avoiding' a guard pull doesn't actually make a lot of sense, since you can't stop me from pulling and now I've gone to guard whether you like it or not.

 

[Crossface9]

You can stay standing against my guard pull, but unless you are running away to avoid engaging I will heel hook the hell out of you. 'Avoiding' a guard pull doesn't actually make a lot of sense, since you can't stop me from pulling and now I've gone to guard whether you like it or not.

Slam?

 

[BJJArsenal]

Slam?

Jumping guard is different to pulling guard

 

[EndlessCritic]

watch pure bjj guys like jacare maia and rolles and Roger gracie their takedowns are still "flimsy" so no it hasn't evolved. it is just cross/MMA training that has

lol wtf? yes, maia took jon fitch down at will with his flimsy takedowns. gtfo.

 

[Bluesbreaker]

Royce's takedowns were effective because most of his opponents didn't know to stop them well, he was incredibly tenacious and would not give up on anything, and despite what the Gracie's would have you believe, Royce didn't have the strength of a new born child, he was stronger that he looked.

 

[RemyR]

So i guess my question: early on did bjj schools not teach solid take downs? Like wrestling take downs. Just assuming "well, if you're fighting a wrestler they'll want to take you down regardless, voila"
Or did that element of bjj develop over the years?

I'm sure they did teach takedowns, however no where near the extent of wrestling or judo. Obviously ground-work is the major focus of BJJ.

 

[akarpenter]

Not to change the subject, but another aspect people seem to overlook in the whole Bjj vs wrestling argument, is the rules. In early ufc, there was no time limit, and no stand ups. Also no scoring and NHB. Clinch, full gaurd, and being able to stall until your opponent gets tired play a huge roll when it is more of a fight and less of a sport. Also, back then a lot of wrestlers didn't know how to finish after they got the pin and didn't win on points...

 

[Mise En Place]

This is going to sound so cocky.... but if Hackney had just a basic wrestling background he would have beat Royce.

I totally disagree. Even on paper that sounds silly. Karate stylist with basic takedown defence beats Royce in a nhb match? No f'ing way.

 

[Eddieg]

There is nothing flimsy about Jacare..

 

[Bluesbreaker]

I totally disagree. Even on paper that sounds silly. Karate stylist with basic takedown defence beats Royce in a nhb match? No f'ing way.

I agree with you, though it would have been very cool to see.

Hackney gave Royce enough trouble already and a wrestling background would have made it even harder. But Royce was incredibly resilient and Hackney would probably have punched himself out/turned his bare hands into mush.

 

[aus101]

Disagree if you'd like.... If a wrestler wanted to keep a fight standing against a bjjer I don't see a guard pull as being all that big of a foil to the wrestler's intention. I just don't see it.

It's not. Guard pulling rarely works on elite wrestlers trying to keep the fight standing. Rarely will the wrestler be caught so bad as that they won't be able to escape the guard anyway. You don't keep a wrestler on the ground by wrapping your legs around him and holding him tight.....

 

[Shemhazai]

There is nothing flimsy about Jacare..

Or Maia. Both have manhandled very good wrestlers in MMA.

 

[crazyjames1233]

bjj takedowns never had to be that good in the past because other fighters had such poor defense against them they didnt need to focus on them very much. and when they went up against wrestlers and ended up on their backs they could just use the guard and eventually get the sub because the wrestlers didn't understand how to deal with it.
but now that other fighters understand the submission game and defense bjj guys in mma have had to dedicate a lot of training in takedowns.

 

[crazyjames1233]

Wait.........so you're saying that grappling style that focuses heavily on takedowns in comparison to BJJ has practitioners that are better at taking people down on the feet?

What other mind-blowing insights are you willing to share with us?

every week someone in the f12 makes this earth-shattering insight.

 

[shunyata]

Cross training is and always was the answer.


Maia, Jacare, many of the old Gracies and pretty much most people who were really really good (hell Maeda cross trained, Carlos cross trained) were doing judo / wrestling / luta livre / etc in addition to jiu jitsu (or perhaps more appropriately to complete their jiu jitsu).


I've always seen modern bjj and modern judo as the fractured yin and yang of early 1900's judo (when leg locks were legal and it was pretty much just pure slam and submission grappling in a gi).

 

[Dirty Holt]

Most elite BJJ guys at the elite level of MMA have good takedowns. They are the exception. 99% of the average BJJ practitioners couldnt take down a jr high football player. They dont need to anyway. Pulling guard in the sport right now is more advantageous than being on top as far as point scoring.

It is much easier to gain advantages from certain positions on bottom than it is on top. Therefore, takedown skills in sport BJJ arent nearly as important as they are in MMA.

 

[georgwilhelm**]

Don't know if it has been mentioned yet. But it seems that BJJ takedowns used to come from Judo mainly, if you watch old Royce videos or Draculino's td fundamentals or Rickson's and Royler's demo in Japan. With the rise of MMA and nogi bjj takedowns now seem to be more oriented toward wrestling. E.g. we never train anything besides single legs or doubles, not even simple foot sweeps or useful easy to execute judo takedowns like o goshi, o soto gari, kouchi/ouchi gari/harai etc.