Social Despite Overwhelming Evidence Vaccines Safe & Effective, "Hysteresis" Endures

Discussion in 'The War Room' started by Madmick, Jan 11, 2019 at 9:05 AM.

  1. Madmick

    Madmick Cerebrage Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Hysteresis: The Phenomenon Behind the Anti-vax Movement
    Despite overwhelming scientific evidence that vaccines are safe and effective in preventing childhood diseases, a significant minority remains skeptical, such as the anti-vax movement. Mathematicians show this may be due to "hysteresis", where an effect persists despite changed initial conditions.
    Interesting hypothesis. Not sure if I buy it on a social level, but the final paragraph boils the social phenomenon down to its essence, and this I do not doubt. The anti-vax movement isn't rooted in scientific understanding or belief. It is rooted in a philosophical distrust of government and the scientific community who these groups of people distrust believing them a serious threat to the philosophical core of their value systems. While that may or may not be a real threat it has no bearing on the truth of vaccines and autism, and the entirely unsubstantiated link between them.


    This has been reinforced by every study into the matter, epidemiological or otherwise, across the developed world, since the shocking discovery that (the since disgraced and delicensed) Dr. Andrew Wakefield fabricated his data in the Lancent-published studies that launched the contemporary anti-vax movement some 15 years ago.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wakefield
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136032/

    Not only that, but a recent May 2018 study also found on a mass scale that children with autism (and their siblings) are less likely to be vaccinated than healthy children:
    Vaccination Patterns in Children After Autism Spectrum Disorder Diagnosis and in Their Younger Siblings
    So, in point of fact, while the scientific and medical communities in 2018 are confident in asserting that vaccines DO NOT cause autism, which is usually the sort of claim these groups of people are very hesitant to make since it requires so much data to establish a negative with certainty, but in addition to this, they can now draw a correlation between anti-vaxxers and a significantly higher incidence of autism; although of course they haven't established or are even proposing causation at this point.


    *Special Note*
    There is a wonderful movement underway to remove paywalls obstructing access to full research data like the above study that is often government subsidized or grant funded, but are restricted with subscriptions costing money that often is NOT devoted to the authors of the studies in question, but the journals publishing them instead. Information like this, while more abstruse, has always been intended to be open source, and for the good of humanity.

    In the meantime, know that if are intensely interested in a study like the above, all you have to do to access it for free is email the authors of the study directly (they typically have university email accounts listed at the abstract page) and ask for it directly. They are permitted to distribute any articles they author freely to anyone who requests it.



     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 11:20 AM
  2. tonni

    tonni Red Belt

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    There’s no vaccines for stupidity.
     
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  3. Trotsky

    Trotsky Silver Belt

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    This topic (the persistence of ignorance re vaccines) is a great microcosm for how the internet age has not panned out at all like we had hoped (like a great liberator for thought and knowledge).

    We thought that, with everyone now having access to limitless knowledge and facts, our citizens and voters would become more informed than they were before when they most received limitd information through agenda setters in the media. It turned out the exact opposite, as citizens' personal consumption of information abandoned all the best practices of mass media consumption, and people just chose to seek out information that confirmed what is easiest or most convenient to believe. So, even if we're less uninformed that years past perhaps, we're definitely more misinformed than ever before. So, with vaccines, we were effectively smarter when we knew less and before we realized that stupid people thinking for themselves is often just stupid people outsourcing their thought to other stupid people.

    Frankly, it's a win for paternalists the world over, and a giant drop kick in the balls to anti-paternalistic libertarians like myself.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019 at 9:20 AM
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  4. HunterSdVa29

    HunterSdVa29 Respect, tho Platinum Member

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    I remember a few guys trying to say they were AntiVax before we got deployment vaccines/shots

    Military's response: shut up and take your shot
    hahahahahaa
     
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  5. tonni

    tonni Red Belt

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    There’s a lot of information, but it takes time and thought to really learn things and it’s not well suited for the high-speed infotainment snippet culture on the internet.

    The platform of the internet is just so well suited to memes and bytes that it has backfired massively. Misinformation websites have become highly sophisticated and you really don’t need a big budget to spread it.

    It does help when you’re being backed by big oil, cough cough climate change denial websites.
     
  6. Post 2 Decision

    Post 2 Decision Black Belt

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    Parents killing their kids

    Survival of the fittest

    At least some of these idiots won't be able to have their genes spread
     
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  7. HockeyBjj

    HockeyBjj Putting on the foil

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  8. Devout Pessimist

    Devout Pessimist Tragic Vision

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    Interesting that the same people who are against vaccines also have Trump Derangement Syndrome.
     
  9. HockeyBjj

    HockeyBjj Putting on the foil

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    Nah. It's extremes on both sides of political line. Crazy hippie moms and don't eat shellfish religious folk both
     
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  10. SidJustice

    SidJustice Master of the world and the universe

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    That is just stupid. Anti vaxxers are on both sides, but at the legislative level they seem to lean republican more (though that may not be accurate)
     
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  11. MikeMcMann

    MikeMcMann Gold Belt

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    i absolutely believe that the benefit of Vaccines outweighs the harms.

    But i also think the gov't is not releasing full data on the 'harms' out of fear of scaring more people from vaccines. And some might say that is fair.

    I know personal anecdotes =/= an argument but in a recent discussions where there was no probing with company board members, which is a group of 7 of us, it came out that 3 have had deadly encounters with the Flu Vaccines. One directly, went into what was supposed to be a life ending coma just over 2 years ago. His family told to clear up his affairs, he would not survive. The other teh CEO of the company who was in line with all his other employees as they all got the flu shot at a company sponsored work even. One employee further up the line collapsed instantly and went into a shorter coma and of course all the rest of the employees left the line and the company no longer does that. The third a relative who did not go into a coma but was hospitalized for a period.

    All three identified as 'adverse reactions to the Flu shot'. I wish I could remember the name of the Disease or Reaction the first guy had as it is an known and identified reaction to the Flu shot you could read up on.

    So maybe it is just an odd and coincidental anomaly within my my known groups (or a tiny group within my group) but i think there are a lot of people like me who have heard to many stories about 'adverse reactions' that do not match up to the data being put out about the risks to make us comfortable.

    And I do believe still that the flu shot prevents more deaths than it causes regardless. But most of those deaths are amongst the very old, infirm or very young. All of these cases were young men in their prime years. Not that their lives are more valuable but a young healthy person, not at much risk might not want to take a anti-viral that put them at risk just to protect the herd.
     
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  12. MMAisGod

    MMAisGod Purple Belt

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    In hindsight we should have saw this coming and attempted some sort of preventive measures to avoid running this course. Our own arrogance bit us in the ass here, and we're paying the price.
     
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  13. lifelessheap

    lifelessheap Silver Belt

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    Yeah, people believe in ESP and ghosts and so much other stupid shit. I have little faith in our populace.
     
  14. Lubaolong

    Lubaolong A natural consequence of gamma radiation

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    Most anti-vaxxers I’ve met have been mentally ill. I would wager the correlation between the two is pretty high.
     
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  15. franklinstower

    franklinstower Brown Belt

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    I don't think the blame should be placed entirely on the shoulders of people who get exposed to false information although the solution must be them seeking better information.

    The majority of blame rests squarely on the people who opportunistically spread these lies and conspiracies often for fame and profit.
     
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  16. ultramanhyata

    ultramanhyata Gold Belt

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    The pharmaceutical industry could go a long way towards ending vaccine skepticism and championing the supposition that vaccines are safe and effective by ending the so-called vaccine court's system of no-fault litigation and by no longer making the US tax-payer responsible for pay outs to the families of vaccine injured children.
     
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  17. mrsenor

    mrsenor Brown Belt

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  18. Joe265

    Joe265 Green Belt

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    Look at the trustworthiness of the pharmaceutical industry. No amount of studies can rectify that. Dr. Jason Fung already proved the sham of Type 2 diabetes. Dr. John Sarnos demonstrates the pain treatment industry is almost completely fraudulent. Think and study for yourself.
     
  19. abiG

    abiG Brown Belt

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    Mic is butthurt. He apparently edited the title to the other thread where just days ago we learned that the government's own vaccine guru has come clean. He made public his sworn affidavit. He told the government years ago, that yes, in at least a subset of children, vaccines turned perfectly healthy children into autistic ones.

    The idea that vaccines are safe and effective as implied in this thread's title has NEVER been settled.

    Here is what we know now:
    ...we have remarkable new information: a respected pro-vaccine medical expert used by the federal government to debunk the vaccine-autism link, says vaccines can cause autism after all. He claims he told that to government officials long ago, but they kept it secret....

    In 2007, Yates’ case and nearly all the other vaccine autism claims lost. The decision was based largely on the expert opinion of this man, Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a world-renowned pediatric neurologist shown here at a lecture.

    Dr. Zimmerman was the government’s top expert witness and had testified that vaccines didn’t cause autism. The debate was declared over.

    But now Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. That turnabout from the government’s own chief medical expert stood to change everything about the vaccine-autism debate. If the public were to find out...

    http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-story/the-vaccination-debate

    I recommend everyone save this one to your hard drives... especially those who rely on the "someone would spill the beans" excuse when discussing how conspiracies do not/can not exist.
     
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  20. Kalitaur

    Kalitaur Blue Belt

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