Social Despite Overwhelming Evidence Vaccines Safe & Effective, "Hysteresis" Endures

[Ruprecht]

As a matter of fact, I believe we will find the greatest commonality between anti-vaxxers and people who refuse to believe that mankind has a significant impact on climate. In other words, people who believe that they will find the truth that the government and science ate trying to hide on obscure YouTube channels.

It's way more the counter culture, anti-corporate, hippy, "alternative medicine" types here.
American style paranoid libertarianism doesn't exist to any significant degree in Oz.

 

[JDragon]

Mic is butthurt. He apparently edited the title to the other thread where just days ago we learned that the government's own vaccine guru has come clean.

And I applaud @Madmick if he did. That bullshit thread title made my blood boil.

 

[JDragon]

It's way more the anti-corporate, hippy, "alternative medicine" types here.
American style paranoid libertarianism doesn't exist to any significant degree in Oz.

Yeah. Let's call it the anti-science and para-science people.

 

[TheComebackKid]

If I say dinosaurs existed and point to hundreds of years of fossil records, carbon dating, and development of scientific consensus....and then you say that dinosaurs didn't exist because that's just how you feel, shaming you is not shaming a valid opinion.

Well, who ever said they believed something because that's how they "felt"? Are you sure you're not mischaracterizing their views. Is this just another way of saying "Everyone who disagrees with me is delusional"?

It's your assertion that facts don't exist and that beliefs is all that exist. That is stupid.

Lol, I never said that Trotsky. Why be dishonest like this?

 

[Greoric]

LOL. ya go for it.. you're playing Russian roulette with your baby's health though. When you delay those vaccines by changing the schedule because you "think" it's too much all you're doing is opening a window (or several windows) for your baby/child to contract something very serious.

Either you believe these vaccines can cause autism or you don't. This "I don't believe but we should stagger it more" is nonsense.

Think about this. When your baby is born and goes through the birth canal, it begins dealing with bacteria and microbes (anywhere from 2000-6000 different proteins) that the body can respond to. Vaccines only have a few of those stimulating proteins to trigger a minimal response.

But please continue to be scared and terrified of vaccines cause some quack had a BS theory 20-some years ago that has been long since proven to be false...

What the fuck is wrong with you?

 

[Fedorable]

25 million people had hysteresis in the 80's.



Vaccines, more than one. Are you guys experts on all of them?

 

[Trotsky]

Well, who ever said they believed something because that's how they "felt"? Are you sure you're not mischaracterizing their views. Is this just another way of saying "Everyone who disagrees with me is delusional"?

That's what your "everyone's appraisal is valid always" amounts to.

Lol, I never said that Trotsky. Why be dishonest like this?

I apologize. You are right that saying something like that would take an inordinate amount of self-awareness.

 

[TheComebackKid]

You missed the point entirely. The argument isn't that there are not remarkably more avenues of information to self-learn beyond what is given. We know this. It is that during the staggering amounts of information readily available over the years, we have devolved into a central hub of mass misinformation.

We did not hedge our bet here, which has allowed a normalcy counterintuitive of our desired goals over time. Because of this we have likely reached the point of no return, where at arms reach there are articles of misinformation to combat accurate/verified sources, where President's can spew random inaccuracies so reinforced behind our learns that we accept it or at worst tolerate it, positions where we simply confirm an already proven false belief and hold strong in the face of superior evidence, etc.

That is the point.

We all think ideas and information we disagree with is "misinformation". If you would like to establish that something is miscommunication, to a person who accepts that information, it takes more work then just getting together in an echo chamber and asserting so. You have to actually delve into the information, ideas, and arguments and combat them.

But if you did that... you might find out that you have been mislead about things.

 

[TheComebackKid]

That's what your "everyone's appraisal is valid always" amounts to.

In no way is that true or even makes sense. Elaborate if you can.

 

[SaiWa]

What the fuck is wrong with you?

You think Trump is correct and he believes that vaccines are affecting babies and children negatively and he thinks its a good idea to delay vaccines... that's what the video was about.. and I responded that this line of thinking is RETARDED...

do you understand?

 

[Greoric]

You think Trump is correct and he believes that vaccines are affecting babies and children negatively and he thinks its a good idea to delay vaccines... that's what the video was about.. and I responded that this line of thinking is RETARDED...

do you understand?

Reread my post dummy.

 

[Trotsky]

Hi Tross
About your last paragraph about your balls being kicked.

You said" anti - Paternalistic Libertarian" are those the groups that complains againts the patriarchy? And if how are they connected with the Anti Vax movement?

Although I notice a lot of these anti vaxers are women and even in my country some anti vaxer mothers have started to pop up

Honestly, and I'm not trying to be a dick at all, I would just not worry about that terminology given that it's your second language, because they are both very loaded terms that are misused a lot (especially libertarian, which has been thoroughly appropriated by idiots in the United States).

But, to the first part, no, being "anti-paternalistic" doesn't have anything to do with patriarchy usually. It just means that, when it cannot be demonstrated to infringe on or inhibit another personal freedom or collective interest, a person's normative decisions and behaviors should not be curbed by the government making decisions for them like a parent who thinks they know better than the kid. In fact, feminists that hate patriarchy can themselves prescribe very paternalistic policy suggestions - such as outlawing prostitution or exotic dancing. While this is not the predominant view of feminists, some want this. This would be very paternalistic since it would be limiting the freedom and inhibit the market power of those women without any empirical basis that says it would be beneficial to them or society. It is the opinion of most feminists (and of anti-paternalistic persons like myself) that prostitution and exotic dancing (stripping) should be legal.

Libertarian just means favoring liberty.

 

[SaiWa]

Reread my post dummy.

okay so he's correct about autism... elaborate from the video.

 

[Greoric]

okay so he's correct about autism... elaborate from the video.

Enter foot in mouth. How about you work on not being a rabid fucking nutball?

 

[franklinstower]

Honestly, I can count myself firmly among the overly optimistic. I've been a critic of capitalism for quite some time, but I overestimated the prevalence (or, hell, even existence) of moral checks on open swindling and lying.



Maybe not entirely, but I think the old conservative ethos of "personal responsibility," no matter how vacuous and hypocritical it may be in most of its applications, comes into play here due to the utter hopelessness of trying to tackle the other end. I mean....just look at our literal representatives. We can't even keep Mitch McConnell, Donald Trump, and Tom Cotton from lying outright (not bending the truth or engaging in persuasion, but outright lying). So we're many, many steps away from even developing criteria for suppression of dishonesty, let alone applying it in such a way that actually works.

I totally agree that the burden presently must be on the consumer of information.

It would be nice if the moral landscape of humanity could rise to a place where this was not such a problem. Imagine how detestable an existence it must be to lie full time to millions for a living.

 

[Lubaolong]

The pharmaceutical industry could go a long way towards ending vaccine skepticism and championing the supposition that vaccines are safe and effective by ending the so-called vaccine court's system of no-fault litigation and by no longer making the US tax-payer responsible for pay outs to the families of vaccine injured children.

This was a system created by congress to prevent a national health crisis after companies stopped making vaccines to avoid frivolous lawsuits.

 

[SaiWa]

Enter foot in mouth. How about you work on not being a rabid fucking nutball?

LOL.

He's not right about Autism at all. He's linking Autism with the vaccines and he's suggesting these "incidents" could be avoided by decreasing the dosages (which is small already) and then stretching it out to a longer period of vaccination which is STUUPPPID!...

If you concur with what he's saying then you believe there is a link between autism and vaccination.. plain and simple.

you're not allowed to sit on the fence. Trump is NOT right.

 

[Madmick]

Mic is butthurt. He apparently edited the title to the other thread where just days ago we learned that the government's own vaccine guru has come clean. He made public his sworn affidavit. He told the government years ago, that yes, in at least a subset of children, vaccines turned perfectly healthy children into autistic ones.

The idea that vaccines are safe and effective as implied in this thread's title has NEVER been settled.

It unequivocally has.

Here is what we know now:
...we have remarkable new information: a respected pro-vaccine medical expert used by the federal government to debunk the vaccine-autism link, says vaccines can cause autism after all. He claims he told that to government officials long ago, but they kept it secret....

In 2007, Yates’ case and nearly all the other vaccine autism claims lost. The decision was based largely on the expert opinion of this man, Dr. Andrew Zimmerman, a world-renowned pediatric neurologist shown here at a lecture.

Dr. Zimmerman was the government’s top expert witness and had testified that vaccines didn’t cause autism. The debate was declared over.

But now Dr. Zimmerman has provided remarkable new information. He claims that during the vaccine hearings all those years ago, he privately told government lawyers that vaccines can, and did cause autism in some children. That turnabout from the government’s own chief medical expert stood to change everything about the vaccine-autism debate. If the public were to find out...
http://fullmeasure.news/news/cover-story/the-vaccination-debate

I recommend everyone save this one to your hard drives... especially those who rely on the "someone would spill the beans" excuse when discussing how conspiracies do not/can not exist.

Your thread title stated that the government knew vaccines cause autism, and buried it. Neither claim was true according to the source in your own OP.

Dr. Zimmerman declined our interview request and referred us to his sworn affidavit. It says: On June 15, 2007, he took aside the Department of Justice—or DOJ lawyers he worked for defending vaccines in vaccine court. He told them that he’d discovered “exceptions in which vaccinations could cause autism.” “I explained that in a subset of children, vaccine induced fever and immune stimulation did cause regressive brain disease with features of autism spectrum disorder.”

Okay, my turn along this CT tangent:
https://vaxopedia.org/tag/andrew-zimmerman/

Most folks remember that the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings were a series of cases that were used to test theories that vaccines could contribute to or cause autism.

The conclusion?

Vaccines are not associated with autism.

So what’s the problem?

“Robert F. Kennedy Jr., Chairman of Children’s Health Defense (CHD), and Rolf Hazlehurst, parent of a vaccine-injured child, petitioned the Department of Justice (DOJ) Office of Inspector General (OIG), and the Senate and House Judiciary Committees today to investigate actions taken by federal personnel during the “Vaccine Court” Omnibus Autism Proceedings (OAP).”

Kennedy and Hazlehurst claim to have evidence of “obstruction of justice and appallingly consequential fraud by two DOJ lawyers who represented the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) in 2007.”

What evidence?

Kennedy and Hazlehurst claim that “that the leading HHS expert, whose written report was used to deny compensation to over 5,000 petitioners in the OAP, provided clarification to the DOJ lawyers that vaccines could, in fact, cause autism in children with underlying and otherwise benign mitochondrial disorders.”

Who is this expert?

It is Andrew Zimmerman, MD, a pediatric neurologist.

There is also a claim that Dr. Zimmerman, along with Dr. Richard Kelley, who was also an expert witness in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Autism Proceedings, served as expert witnesses in a medical malpractice case against a pediatrician who vaccinated a child, supposedly causing him to become autistic.

Which child?

Yates Hazlehurst, who was the second test case in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings.

Confused?

Dr. Zimmerman settles any fraud issue when he answers this clear question in his deposition in a malpractice against Yates Hazlehurt’s pediatrician.

Dr. Zimmerman admits that there is no evidence that vaccines cause autism, but also believes that there are some exceptions, and that vaccines can cause regressive autism in some kids with mitochondrial disorders.


Dr. Zimmerman also clarified that it is not just immunizations, but infections, fever, and other inflammatory responses that can lead to regressive autism.

Dr. Zimmerman clarified that infections can lead to regressive autism too – not just vaccines.

And Dr. Zimmerman would have testified to it in the Cedillo case (the first test case in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings), if he had been allowed to.


Except that upon review of the Cedillo case, Dr. Zimmerman had concluded that “there is no evidence of an association between autism and the alleged reaction to MMR and Hg, and it is more likely than not, that there is a genetic basis for autism in this child.”

Apparently, he had changed his mind later, even though he continues to say that all evidence points to the fact that vaccines don’t cause autism.

“Dr. Zimmerman subsequently submitted a second expert opinion on behalf of Hannah Poling, which in effect states that she suffers autism as a result of a vaccine injury. The same government officials, who submitted and relied upon Dr. Zimmerman’s first expert opinion as evidence in the O.A.P., secretly conceded the case of Hannah Poling and placed it under seal so that the evidence in the case could not be used in the O.A.P. or known by the public.”

Memorandum Regarding Misconduct By The United States Department Of Justice And The United States Department Of Health And Human Services During The Omnibus Autism Proceeding As To The Expert Opinions Of Dr. Andrew Zimmerman

But what about the “second expert opinion” from Dr. Zimmerman?

According to Poling’s mother, “Dr. Zimmerman was not an expert nor was he asked to be an expert on Poling’s case. The government conceded her case before ANY opinion was rendered or given.”

What about Dr. Richard Kelley?

“As noted above, an important consideration for treatment of AMD is that “normal” inflammation can impair mitochondrial function. Although most infections cannot be avoided, certain measures can limit the risk of injury during infection or other causes of inflammation… We believe it is much better to immunize with DTaP than risk infection with highly inflammatory and potentially damaging community-acquired pertussis.”

Dr. Richard Kelley on Evaluation and Treatment of Patients with Autism and Mitochondrial Disease


While he seems to believe that vaccines can trigger regressive autism in some kids with mitochondrial disease, he admits that other kinds of inflammation can do it too, including vaccine-preventable diseases.


“We believe it is much better to immunize with DTaP than risk infection with highly inflammatory and potentially damaging community-acquired pertussis.”

Andrew Zimmerman


And again, so does Dr. Zimmerman, to the point that in many cases, he thinks that even kids with mitochondrial disorders should be vaccinated.


“…the MMR vaccine has been temporally associated, if rarely, with regressions — with regression in AMD and other mitochondrial disease when given in the second year. Doubtless some of these regressions are coincidental, since the usual age for giving the MMR falls within the typical window of vulnerability for AMD regression.”

Andrew Zimmerman

If rarely associated…

Coincidental…

That doesn’t sound very convincing.

Although a lot of Dr. Zimmerman’s deposition makes it into J.B. Handley’s new autism book, what’s missing is that there were many other experts that testified against the idea that vaccines could be associated with autism during the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings and that their testimony and their reports were relied upon more than Zimmerman’s.

“The undersigned has reviewed and considered the filed reports from these experts and finds that the opinions of the experts lend support to the conclusions reached in this decision. In reaching the conclusions set forth in this decision, however, the undersigned relies more heavily on the testimony and reports of the experts who were observed and heard during the hearings.”


Hazlehurst v. Secretary of HHS

So where is the fraud in the Vaccine Court Omnibus Proceedings?

Is it that the Poling case files have been kept under seal and hidden from public view?

“Finally, and perhaps for purposes of Rolf’s request that Poling’s records be released to the public, Jon and I have not allowed the release of Hxxxx’s records nor will we ever willingly allow third parties to tear apart her medical history which includes other close family members as well as things that should have never been in the record to begin with.”


Terry Poling

While we should all care about fraud in our court system, we should all also care about folks who push misinformation about vaccines and try to scare parents away from vaccinating and protecting their kids, especially when they use autistic kids to do it.

Don’t believe them.


It is telling that Dr. Zimmerman, the hero in this story, discredits the other heroes of the anti-vaccine movement, from the Geiers to Andrew Wakefield.

“I do think that — that there was much information — misinformation brought about by Dr. Wakefield and it’s — this has set the field back. I think that — that we — we have worked very hard to try to reassure the public and I agree with doing that because I am very supportive of vaccinations, immunizations in general.”

Andrew Zimmerman

While Dr. Zimmerman truly believes that future research might find a way to identify a very small subset of kids with mitochondrial disorders that worsen after they get their vaccines (or infections or other types of inflammation), this doesn’t apply to the great majority of autistic kids or even the great majority of kids with regressive autism.

Different answers to a very similar question? They are from different lawyers in the Zimmerman deposition…
Even Dr. Zimmerman only seems to speak of an “uncommon relationship” that “is not evident in studies that have been done to date.”

And none of the researchers he mentions, including Richard Frye, Shannon Rose, Joe (Jill?) James, or Dmitriy Niyazov seem to have actually studied vaccines, only possible relationships between autism and mitochondrial conditions.

“The claims by RFK Jr. and Handley draw on something that was not, in fact, a fraud, that is misrepresented as having a dramatic impact on the Omnibus Autism Proceedings when it had little to no effect.”

Plus ça change – anti-vaccine activists revive the Hannah Poling case

So there is nothing really new here.

And while it might be news to folks like Bob Sears, vaccines are safe and necessary and still don’t cause autism.

You're not just posting CTs. You're posting outright propaganda.

I saw the article in my own OP yesterday, and found it a bit silly, but apparently it is still quite vital. The mathematical basis for this notion of "hysteresis" is also more interesting than most social theories which are usually little more than inventions of identity and emotion.

 

[Greoric]

LOL.

He's not right about Autism at all. He's linking Autism with the vaccines and he's suggesting these "incidents" could be avoided by decreasing the dosages (which is small already) and then stretching it out to a longer period of vaccination which is STUUPPPID!...

If you concur with what he's saying then you are you believe there is a link between autism and vaccination.. plain and simple.

you're not allowed to sit on the fence. Trump is NOT right.

Incidence*... you goofy fuck. He said the incidence of Autism is up. It is, significantly, and that reality is really worth looking into.

 

[SaiWa]

Incidence*... you goofy fuck.

that's your comeback??...

keep on drinkin' that Trump flavored Kool Aid even even it flies in the face of everything you believe (or should) believe in... lol