Denmark offers jobs, housing and university education to returning jihadists

[Vitamin C]

I don't think the idea will work as well for jihadi's the way it does for normal crime ...

This exactly. Not all 'crime' is equal.
If those stats concerning lowering crime rates by adjusting socioeconomic opportunities are considering all crime, then of course you'd see that effect. However, I bet that if you parsed the data into nonviolent and violent crimes you'd see a heavier rehabilitative effect for the nonviolent group.

The actions of the individuals in question are in the furthest extreme possible for violent offense. These are people travelling across the globe to participate in mutilation, murder, rape and slavery. There is no coming back from that in my eyes, regardless of whatever factors drove them to it.

Equating the actions of these individuals with run of the mill criminals is an insult to the criminals.

 

[Thames]

The state offers all those things to all danish citizens. It's not like it's only the jihadists who gets access to "free" university.

There already has been a thread on this btw:
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f5...habilitate-jihadists-returning-syria-2834785/

I will repeat my post:
Weird with all these threads with Denmark and muslims. It's even weirder that Denmark is now portayed as some kind of overly tolerant country, when we have the toughest immigration policy in Europe by far. We even lose cases at the human rights court at a frequent basis.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12366676

The biggest party in Denmark recently suggested this:
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140728/make-it-harder-for-muslims-to-come-to-denmark-venstre
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140805/denmark-no-entry-for-muslims

So it seems extremely absurd with all these recent threads, about how Denmark is going become an islamic state and that we're destroying our own native culture.
We are actually so tough on immigration that it's hurting our economy a big deal.

As for the subject of this thread; European muslims going to Syria to fight along ISIL is actually a problem that extends to more countries than Denmark.
The issue is that it's not illegal to travel to Syria, and it's very hard to prove that someone has aided e.g. ISIL.
This is why the rehabilitation approach has been taken by some in Denmark, since the punishment approach is nearly impossible in these very muddy cases. So instead we're at least trying to do something, even if it seems like a hopeless task.
But you can count on that our intelligence services are watching these guys like hawks.

And to you guys saying that other western countries are taking harsher approaches. No they aren't.
http://cphpost.dk/news/government-to-crack-down-on-extremism-and-radicalisation.10914.html
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140912/denmark-prepared-to-get-tougher-on-jihadists
Denmark is doing the exact same thing.

Everybody wants to make it a one-way ticket for those travelling there to aid ISIL. But it's nearly an impossible task to do in accordance with exisiting laws.
There are no one, not even the most left-leaning politicians who are saying something like: "Let's give these kids a chance huh? a little killing and rape? We we're all young once!". The problem is that it's a legal nightmare, because it's almost impossible to prove that they have actually committed any terrorist acts.

If Denmark didn't have the highest per-capita rate of its own citizens going off to fight jihad in the first place, they might have some credibility on this issue. As it is, they're a comedy jackpot. The comments on the Guardian version of this article are hilarious. Typical example:

"So, the story goes, some young Muslim men feel so 'unwelcome' in Denmark, a liberal, progressive, secular society, that they travel to the Middle East to fight for the creation of a brutally repressive, genocidal, religious slave-state?

Bollocks.

It's about time we stopped finding a way to blame Western societies for the actions of men who find the prospect of an AK-47 and state sanctioned rape far more exciting than free speech, a free vote and freedom to worship (or not)."

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/nov/12/deradicalise-isis-fighters-jihadists-denmark-syria

Highest per capita? I've read that we rank high, but e.g. here it says Australia: http://time.com/2911040/australia-isis-syria-iraq-terrorism/

I also think you're misreading the situation. This is to help those who return, it's not about some system that tried to prevent future jihadist from emerging. The article is about what Denmark is doing ex ante. You could make the argument that intergrating muslims in Denmark has been somewhat of a failure when stuff like this happens, but that's seems to be the case in all european nations. So calling Denmark a joke in this particular case seems a bit harsh.

Right now but it would seem they are taking a turn in a direction that will undue all they have achieved.

When Denmark's economy started booming it was under politics that was way more liberal and left leaning than today.

I wonder why that is……….

And I don’t think it has anything to do with the prison system.

I wonder, what you wonder what it is.
The prison system is a big part of it, I don't think you can despute that since Denmark has one of the worlds lowest recidivism rates. Made a thread about that here: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/prison-what-system-best-2462071/

 

[oldshadow]

The state offers all those things to all danish citizens. It's not like it's only the jihadists who gets access to "free" university.

There already has been a thread on this:
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f5...habilitate-jihadists-returning-syria-2834785/

I will repeat my post:
Weird with all these threads with Denmark and muslims. It's even weirder that Denmark is now portayed as some kind of overly tolerant country, when we have the toughest immigration policy in Europe by far. We even lose cases at the human rights court at a frequent basis.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12366676

The biggest party in Denmark recently suggested this:
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140728/make-it-harder-for-muslims-to-come-to-denmark-venstre
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140805/denmark-no-entry-for-muslims

So it seems extremely absurd with all these recent threads, about how Denmark is going become an islamic state and that we're destroying our own native culture.
We are actually so tough on immigration that it's hurting our economy a big deal.

As for the subject of this thread; European muslims going to Syria to fight along ISIL is actually a problem that extends to more countries than Denmark.
The issue is that it's not illegal to travel to Syria, and it's very hard to prove that someone has aided e.g. ISIL.
This is why the rehabilitation approach has been taken by some in Denmark, since the punishment approach is nearly impossible in these very muddy cases. So instead we're at least trying to do something, even if it seems like a hopeless task.
But you can count on that our intelligence services are watching these guys like hawks.

And to you guys saying that other western countries are taking harsher approaches. No they aren't.
http://cphpost.dk/news/government-to-crack-down-on-extremism-and-radicalisation.10914.html
http://www.thelocal.dk/20140912/denmark-prepared-to-get-tougher-on-jihadists
Denmark is doing the exact same thing.

Everybody wants to make it a one-way ticket for those travelling there to aid ISIL. But it's nearly an impossible task to do in accordance with exisiting laws.
There are no one, not even the most left-leaning politicians who are saying something like: "Let's give these kids a chance huh? a little killing and rape? We we're all young once!". The problem is that it's a legal nightmare, because it's almost impossible to prove that they have actually committed any terrorist acts.



Highest per capita? I've read that we rank high, but e.g. here it says Australia: http://time.com/2911040/australia-isis-syria-iraq-terrorism/

I also think you're misreading the situation. This is to help those who return, this is not a boast about some system Denmark tried to prevent future jihadist from emerging, that just blew up in our face. You can say that overall intergrating muslims in Denmark has been a failure, but that's seems to be the case in all european nations. So calling Denmark a joke seems a bit harsh.



When Denmark's economy started booming it was under politics that was way more liberal and left leaning than today.



I wonder, what you wonder what it is.
The prison system is a big part of it, I don't think you can despute that since Denmark has one of the worlds lowest recidivism rates. Made a thread about that here: http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f54/prison-what-system-best-2462071/

Yea the low rate has nothing to do with the general culture and many other factors that allow you to have that type of prison system not the system causes it.

 

[Thames]

Yea the low rate has nothing to do with the general culture and many other factors that allow you to have that type of prison system not the system causes it.

The general culture?
These are people who are put in jail for a crime, just like in the U.S.
A robber in the U.S has about 70% chance for re-offending, while a robber in Denmark has around 27% chance for re-offending. The only difference between the robbers are what they experienced during their prison sentence. The general culture outside is irrelevant to them while they're in jail.
That's all discussed in my thread I linked to though, a bit off-topic here.

 

[Marsupial]

This proposed policy seems based entirely on the fallacy that poverty, lack of education, etc. drives men to become Islamic terrorists.

Jihadists come from a wide variety of socio-economic backgrounds, with many being well-educated people of substantial financial means. What unites them is adherence to a totalitarian ideology and the idea that they're going to suddenly abandon that on account of social democrats showering them with blandishments seems like an outrageous gamble at best.

It's like a policy drafted upon the plot of American History X. Their extremism will hopefully disappear overnight once their enemies reach out to them with sincere smiles (and they've maybe been bum-raped in the shower by their own side).

 

[oldshadow]

The general culture?
These are people who are put in jail for a crime, just like in the U.S.
A robber in the U.S has about 70% chance for re-offending, while a robber in Denmark has around 27% chance for re-offending. The only difference between the robbers are what they experienced during their prison sentence. The general culture outside is irrelevant to them while they're in jail.
That's all discussed in my thread I linked to though, a bit off-topic here.

There was another thread on this all ready but it boils down to how about to prove it's all in the prision system the U.S. send you a large group of our robbers, murderers and rapist and you reform them and keep them after they are released. Hell we should even give you the money it would have taken us to keep them.

 

[Marsupial]

If Denmark didn't have the highest per-capita rate of its own citizens going off to fight jihad in the first place, they might have some credibility on this issue.

Denmark is bad, but I think Belgium might be the worst (for European/Western countries). Proportion of foreign fighters in IS by country:

 

[Zankou]

Yeah I re-read that Guardian article and I realize it said second most of Euro countries next to the outlier Belgium.

Belgium breeds jihadis like hotcakes.

 

[Thames]

There was another thread on this all ready but it boils down to how about to prove it's all in the prision system the U.S. send you a large group of our robbers, murderers and rapist and you reform them and keep them after they are released. Hell we should even give you the money it would have taken us to keep them.

Could be interesting, but obviously it's completely unrealistic with violent criminals. I doubt the victim of a crime would be happy with seeing his e.g. rapist shipped off to an open prison in Denmark.

But perhaps it could be tried with like a simple thief who has gotten caught for the third time or something. But again, interesting as it may be, I doubt we'll ever see it happen.
But why is it that you think that a person who commits robbery in the U.S is different from a robber who commits robbery in Denmark?

Denmark is bad, but I think Belgium might be the worst (for European/Western countries). Proportion of foreign fighters in IS by country:

It's crazy...
How the hell did our integration of these muslims fail so miserably? This is just so extreme.
Though I guess it's not much different from the danish citizens who joined the Wermacht and SS during WW2.
Just crazy to think about that you have citizens who grew up in one of the most peaceful and stable countries in the world, but who developed such an insane and inhuman school of thought.

 

[Zankou]

It brings out a typical difference between 'close knit' integrating social societies and heavily multicultural/individualist societies.

Close knit societies tend to focus much more on re-integrating criminal offenders, and blame themselves for their offending citizens having gone astray. They tend to have elaborate social mechanisms for minimizing the need for retributive justice, and focus on integrating different groups.

Individualist societies, on the other hand, tend to be much more insistent on punishment for those who act wrong, because group harmony is much less important. They don't excuse crimes, and they demand that criminals suffer for having committed crimes.

There are merits to both approaches, and they tend to be better suited for different situations. You can see excesses in them both, particularly with hard cases .... in the US, for example, we demand incredibly harsh justice for kids who murder, while in Scandinavian nations, you practically get a pat on the butt, a free car, and a grievous apology from the state for having driven you to suffer so much by killing somebody else.

This particular case of the jihadis is an example where the 'reintegration' model looks awfully silly and delusional (you are 'reintegrating' adults who freely decided to go join a campaign of genocide, slavery, murder, and rape, rather than punishing them for their actions), but that's because it is on the extreme end of the spectrum. The 'punishment' model has its own problems.

 

[IDL]

It's crazy...
How the hell did our integration of these muslims fail so miserably? This is just so extreme.
Though I guess it's not much different from the danish citizens who joined the Wermacht and SS during WW2.
Just crazy to think about that you have citizens who grew up in one of the most peaceful and stable countries in the world, but who developed such an insane and inhuman school of thought.

It's not that crazy to consider that many Muslims do not identify with Western culture, and have a connection to their old way of life and people.

Islam creates a pretty strong bond in a lot of people. A sort of brotherhood or common purpose. And that is in additional to ethnic and historical ties.

This would inevitably cause some of them to look for alternatives.

 

[oldshadow]

Could be interesting, but obviously it's completely unrealistic with violent criminals. I doubt the victim of a crime would be happy with seeing his e.g. rapist shipped off to an open prison in Denmark.

But perhaps it could be tried with like a simple thief who has gotten caught for the third time or something. But again, interesting as it may be, I doubt we'll ever see it happen.
But why is it that you think that a person who commits robbery in the U.S is different from a robber who commits robbery in Denmark?



It's crazy...
How the hell did our integration of these muslims fail so miserably? This is just so extreme.
Though I guess it's not much different from the danish citizens who joined the Wermacht and SS during WW2.
Just crazy to think about that you have citizens who grew up in one of the most peaceful and stable countries in the world, but who developed such an insane and inhuman school of thought.

First I agree that our prison system needs overhauling and we need to do a better job of separating the ones that deserve and need a chance to rehabilitate their lives and the ones we need to warehouse until they die or are too old to do any harm.

I believe your system could help with the ones that are non violent especially the first time offenders.

All that said I believe the first obligation of the justice system is justice for the victims.

 

[Rod1]

Let's ship some mexican mafia members over there and see how low their crime rates stay

They are already there

 

[Rod1]

First I agree that our prison system needs overhauling and we need to do a better job of separating the ones that deserve and need a chance to rehabilitate their lives and the ones we need to warehouse until they die or are too old to do any harm.

I believe your system could help with the ones that are non violent especially the first time offenders.

All that said I believe the first obligation of the justice system is justice for the victims.

You can believe what you want but you cant argue results.

Its pretty silly to criticize nordic xountries since they make the rest of the first world look like third world

 

[Ruprecht]

Denmark is bad, but I think Belgium might be the worst (for European/Western countries). Proportion of foreign fighters in IS by country:

Are Australia and Austria's per capita rates really identical, or did someone screw up (again)?

 

[oldshadow]

You can believe what you want but you cant argue results.

Its pretty silly to criticize nordic xountries since they make the rest of the first world look like third world

And if you believe that making our justice system just like their would cure our problem you need to back away from the pipe.

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

Yet have the lower crime rates of the world

Nothing to do with being only 5million people large and one of most homogeneous demographics in the western world.

It's much more easy to distribute equality and wealth when you have a small population and everyone is of the same background.

 

[Ruprecht]

Nothing to do with being only 5million people large and one of most homogeneous demographics in the western world.

It's much more easy to distribute equality and wealth when you have a small population and everyone is of the same background.

You meant "distribute resources and wealth", right?

 

[JudoThrowFiasco]

You meant "distribute resources and wealth", right?

Sure, resources and wealth - much easier to do when there's a small population, in which nearly 90% are of the same background.

 

[Rod1]

And if you believe that making our justice system just like their would cure our problem you need to back away from the pipe.

Cant certainly make it worse.