Defense Soap.. worth it?

[Defense Soap]

Do you send the samples internationally?

We will ship samples anywhere in the world.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[waiguoren]

You don't have to deliberately infect people with staph to do a meaningful trial. Just find a bunch of people who don't currently use the product, randomise as to whether they receive some or not and do follow-up a few months later to see if they have diagnosed infections. You could make placebo bars that are formulated like "normal" soap if you wanted to be extra convincing.

Dude beat me to it

 

[Defense Soap]

The problem is you already have selection bias in your testimonials. people who are using it know they are using it and are more likely to believe it is working for them even though they might never have got any infections without using it.

You don't need to deliberately infect people with a contaminant if the study is large enough. Look at the recent HIV study in Thailand. They just used an at risk group, as well as that they had to tell their study group to avoid risky behaviour (which probably none of them listened to anyway) to make their study ethical.

You would need to have a sample size large enough and show a statistically significant result over other soap for it to prove successful. Obviously this study would be costly, but I would think the benefits would outweigh the outlays. Unless of course the study shows that your soap is either ineffectual or it could even show that you are more at risk.

Can you share the link to this study. I would most interested to learn more.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Defense Soap]

Fun thread.

One can devise a randomized, double-blind study on a large sample of active grapplers. Divide the grapplers into two groups: one group gets defense soap, the other gets ordinary soap. Bring the grapplers in for a skin exam maybe every two weeks. Compile the rates of infection for the most common skin diseases, and compare across the two groups.

Obviously this would be expensive and therefore probably impractical.

This double blind study would be so weak that it would not stand up. There is absolutely no control. Your example doesn't even have them training on the same mats. It would be a start but that is as far as it would go.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[waiguoren]

The problem is you already have selection bias in your testimonials. people who are using it know they are using it and are more likely to believe it is working for them even though they might never have got any infections without using it.

You don't need to deliberately infect people with a contaminant if the study is large enough. Look at the recent HIV study in Thailand. They just used an at risk group, as well as that they had to tell their study group to avoid risky behaviour (which probably none of them listened to anyway) to make their study ethical.

You would need to have a sample size large enough and show a statistically significant result over other soap for it to prove successful. Obviously this study would be costly, but I would think the benefits would outweigh the outlays. Unless of course the study shows that your soap is either ineffectual or it could even show that you are more at risk.

This.

 

[codemonkey76]

Can you share the link to this study. I would most interested to learn more.

Guy
Defense Soap

You can listen to an in depth discussion on the study on episode 51 of This Week In Virology here:

http://www.twiv.tv/2009/09/27/alvac-hiv-and-aidsvax-be/

The trial I believe was the RV 144 trial, you can find it here on wikipedia with all it's associated links/sources:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RV_144

I think the actual paper is behind a paywall :-(

 

[waiguoren]

This double blind study would be so weak that it would not stand up. There is absolutely no control.

Guy
Defense Soap

Ordinary soap is the control you're looking for. It would probably be considered unethical to have athletes use fake soap after training.

Your example doesn't even have them training on the same mats.
Defense Soap

To get sufficient sample size you would probably need to do your study over athletes from multiple gyms. This is where randomization comes in. With a large enough sample and true randomization, each study group contains enough grapplers of each sort to "balance out". This is a very basic concept from statistics.

 

[Defense Soap]

This.

I will wait to comment until I read the study. Instructing your control not to participate in a behavior illustrates no control whatsoever.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[codemonkey76]

I will wait to comment until I read the study. Instructing your control not to participate in a behavior illustrates no control whatsoever.

Guy
Defense Soap

That wasn't a requirement of the study, it was a requirement of the ethics board. They are giving medical advice as part of their check-up, and their patients are high risk thai prostitutes engaging in unsafe sex. It is in their duty of care to instruct the patient that they should refrain from any unsafe sex.

They are giving the same advice to the patients receiving placebo as to the real vaccine, so as long as the study is large enough, the people who follow their advice and don't get HIV that get the placebo will balance out.

 

[Defense Soap]

That wasn't a requirement of the study, it was a requirement of the ethics board. They are giving medical advice as part of their check-up, and their patients are high risk thai prostitutes engaging in unsafe sex. It is in their duty of care to instruct the patient that they should refrain from any unsafe sex.

They are giving the same advice to the patients receiving placebo as to the real vaccine, so as long as the study is large enough, the people who follow their advice and don't get HIV that get the placebo will balance out.

Ok That's better. I was wondering what type of study you were suggesting to me.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[Defense Soap]

Just out of curiosity do you know of any other soap on the market held to these standards and if so can you share their research with the forum.

Guy
Defense Soap

 

[codemonkey76]

Just out of curiosity do you know of any other soap on the market held to these standards and if so can you share their research with the forum.

Guy
Defense Soap

I don't know much about soap, I just know if someone makes a claim I will ask for evidence. The question was asked, is the higher cost of Defense Soap worth it, over regular soap as a preventative for skin diseases. I can't answer for anyone but myself. I don't buy the claim without sufficient evidence. I use betadine surgical scrub on occasion (I haven't looked into it's efficacy, but it is pretty darn cheap, so it is not worth the effort)

 

[codemonkey76]

Just out of curiosity do you know of any other soap on the market held to these standards and if so can you share their research with the forum.

Guy
Defense Soap

I do think it's great that you go to such lengths to defend your product though, kudos.

 

[powerBJJ]

check out fightsoap.com

they have a sample pack only 20$ try different soaps see if its worth it to keep buying also ask the guys you train with

 

[Fencer]

For what it's worth, I tried "Atheletic Body Care" soap products, but it didn't help. I still picked up something.

For those that live in California, a chain grocery store "Trader Joe's" makes their own brand tea tree shampoo and body wash. I use it after every time I train and so far no skin problems.

 

[Impulsive]

Defense soap seems like just a scam to put in a few pointless ingredients and reap huge margins

 

[MyBodyHurts]

Our price for a 5 pack is $27.50 not $39.46. Someone else may be selling it for this amount but it surely is not us. I find it hard to believe anyone would buy at that price when at least 12 people sell Defense on Amazon including Amazon itself for way less. For the record Defense is the highest quality bar with pharmaceutical grade oils and made in America by pround American

 

[MyBodyHurts]

If you visited our site or read any of our posts here you would know that we preach education and a proper hygiene regime. We offer free samples and all the education on the topic we can dig up. If our soap is a good fit for you and you like our business plan we hope to gain you as a customer. I feel you have totally missed our intention.

This is completely irrelevant and the type of ridiculous persuasion tactics that fool morons. As far as your intention, I think it's to sell a product and do it in a way that makes it seem much better than others out there without explicitly saying so in order to charge high fees. And, as the owner of the company I certain don't expect you to come on here and acknowledge such. I also understand it.

And as for other Tea Tree Oil soaps, I suggest you look for consistency and concentration levels. By no means are they all the same and quite frankly you will get what you pay for. But don’t forget the Eucalyptus Oil which adds a nice additional level of protection.

This is sort of like Gatorade saying they have the perfect blend of electrolytes. It's all marketing. A quick search on google found several products with the same amount of tree oil as yours for much, much cheaper. I am not sure if you listed what amount of eucalyptus oil is in your product on here and may have missed it.

I'm going to leave this as my final reply and graciously give you the final word. I'm not trying to harm your business or imply you don't have the right intentions. Certainly helping people stay healthy while making a living is a good deal. But, the question this thread started with was is your product worth the money. Does your product really provide any or enough protection from bacteria, fungi, etc., to lead someone to the conclusion they should pay that much money for five bars of soap over time? The answer in my view is clearly no. You are the one selling and marketing this product so it is you who are required to prove it works as you say it does. Realistically, the cost of doing so would be very expensive but you could test it.

For example, you could take 200 jiu jitsu athletes who train 5-7 days a week, have 50 use Defense Soap, 50 use a similar product, 50 use a name brand, and 50 use a generic brand to see over the course over several months to a year who, if anyone, developed a skin condition (controlling for as many factors as you can) and if any soap had a higher rate than another. This study would also have problems but I think it would begin convincing people.

So, to answer TS, speak with a dermatologist and save your money.

(I don't have time to read over this before I post so if there are mispellings or errors please give me the benefit of the doubt.)

 

[BJ@LW&WW]

You know, I used to be kind of a hater because it seemed like defense soap is essentially advertised on here by defense soap guy whenever it's brought up. Now though, I don't really see why so many people are hating on it. It's just another product and I don't think the people who make the threads about it are ones working/benefiting from the business.

I see people basically saying the product seller makes claims about the soap that either aren't true or aren't substantiated on the level of acceptable scientific human trials, but that's true of most products.

And if your gripe is with the price, no one is making you buy it. You don't find expensive shit on amazon and start berating the seller. You see it, say it's not for you, and move on.

I think defense soap is probably a little too expensive for what it does so I don't buy it, but I don't see why people are so quick to try to tear this guy apart.

From what I can tell, he hasn't lied about anything and perhaps the worst he's done is suggest he has a good product through anecdotal evidence. Not much of a sin there in my eyes.

 

[codemonkey76]

You know, I used to be kind of a hater because it seemed like defense soap is essentially advertised on here by defense soap guy whenever it's brought up. Now though, I don't really see why so many people are hating on it. It's just another product and I don't think the people who make the threads about it are ones working/benefiting from the business.

I see people basically saying the product seller makes claims about the soap that either aren't true or aren't substantiated on the level of acceptable scientific human trials, but that's true of most products.

And if your gripe is with the price, no one is making you buy it. You don't find expensive shit on amazon and start berating the seller. You see it, say it's not for you, and move on.

I think defense soap is probably a little too expensive for what it does so I don't buy it, but I don't see why people are so quick to try to tear this guy apart.

From what I can tell, he hasn't lied about anything and perhaps the worst he's done is suggest he has a good product through anecdotal evidence. Not much of a sin there in my eyes.

No-one on here is tearing the guy a new one, the question was asked whether it is worth the price, a few of us say no, and guy is defending his product based on their products claims.