Honestly, the aura around Mark Kerr was gone after Igor put him out, albeit illegally. This was still a huge upset because no one knew who the hell Fujita was, but in the context of MMA Kerr was all smoke and mirrors. His best win was against Enson Inoue who was undersized and an ideal stylistic matchup for him. The rest of his wins, save for a young Dan Bobish, were against varying degrees of jobbers. Literally, all of them. His path to ADCC glory was impressive for sure, but he simply did not have the cardio and toughness to succeed in MMA against good opponents. There were huge, glaring weaknesses in Kerr's game that people were pointing out even before the GP and it's plain to see in hindsight that Kerr really wasn't that good at fighting. I've seen every one of his fights that are out there to see, some a couple times, and the guy just wasn't an elite fighter, even for his era, and it showed when he was put up against actual good fighters. Fujita/Kerr was a major upset, but it had more to do with Fujita being unknown than Kerr being regarded as unbeatable.
Conversely, GSP was on an absolute tear and looking unbeatable when Serra happened. No WW fighter had done what he did to the division after his loss to Matt Hughes years before. He made guys like Sherk, Mayhem, Trigg, and Hughes look like they didn't even belong in the ring with him. The toughest fight he had there against BJ is listed as controversial but it really shouldn't be at all. He clearly won 2 rounds against a fading BJ and took that one handily. He had been preying on the best WW's for essentially his entire career (Menjivar notwithstanding) and making it look easy. Serra had a nasty loss to Karo (man, he got his ass kicked there!) and an ugly win over Lytle at WW. MMA had exploded in popularity, GSP was rightfully considered one of the best P4P fighters in the world by the actual fanbase (those Sherdog rankings from 2007 make absolutely no sense to me), and Serra was considered at best a journeyman BJJ specialist with zero KO wins on his record. Hindsight has also proven that GSP was the WW GOAT while Serra, though certainly better than we initially thought, was nowhere even close to GSP's level... except for that one damn time!
Serra/GSP was a far bigger upset than Fujita/Kerr, but good on you for knowing your history and bringing this one up for discussion. It's nice to have a discourse on the actual sport.
Honestly, the aura around Mark Kerr was gone after Igor put him out, albeit illegally. This was still a huge upset because no one knew who the hell Fujita was, but in the context of MMA Kerr was all smoke and mirrors. His best win was against Enson Inoue who was undersized and an ideal stylistic matchup for him. The rest of his wins, save for a young Dan Bobish, were against varying degrees of jobbers. Literally, all of them. His path to ADCC glory was impressive for sure, but he simply did not have the cardio and toughness to succeed in MMA against good opponents. There were huge, glaring weaknesses in Kerr's game that people were pointing out even before the GP and it's plain to see in hindsight that Kerr really wasn't that good at fighting. I've seen every one of his fights that are out there to see, some a couple times, and the guy just wasn't an elite fighter, even for his era, and it showed when he was put up against actual good fighters. Fujita/Kerr was a major upset, but it had more to do with Fujita being unknown than Kerr being regarded as unbeatable.
Conversely, GSP was on an absolute tear and looking unbeatable when Serra happened. No WW fighter had done what he did to the division after his loss to Matt Hughes years before. He made guys like Sherk, Mayhem, Trigg, and Hughes look like they didn't even belong in the ring with him. The toughest fight he had there against BJ is listed as controversial but it really shouldn't be at all. He clearly won 2 rounds against a fading BJ and took that one handily. He had been preying on the best WW's for essentially his entire career (Menjivar notwithstanding) and making it look easy. Serra had a nasty loss to Karo (man, he got his ass kicked there!) and an ugly win over Lytle at WW. MMA had exploded in popularity, GSP was rightfully considered one of the best P4P fighters in the world by the actual fanbase (those Sherdog rankings from 2007 make absolutely no sense to me), and Serra was considered at best a journeyman BJJ specialist with zero KO wins on his record. Hindsight has also proven that GSP was the WW GOAT while Serra, though certainly better than we initially thought, was nowhere even close to GSP's level... except for that one damn time!
Serra/GSP was a far bigger upset than Fujita/Kerr, but good on you for knowing your history and bringing this one up for discussion. It's nice to have a discourse on the actual sport.
>The Igor situation has already been assessed in the OP.
The thing is, even though one might consider ( I do) that Kerr was potentially fadin´ in that fight, you cant project. Without that [strange] rookie mistake (Igor´s manager did inquire about them rules b4 the fight, at the meetin´between Pride & them fighters), Igor could have reversed the situation, but, who knows... Kerr could have secured a late TD & cruise to the end of the fight with some L&P.
Tricky decision, then... Probably a split one.
> Kerr´s run:
You might consider some of these dudes "jobbers', but at the time, some of them were hespected in the Vale Tudo scene:
- Hugo Duarte: bust or not, he was representative of an era, which got him his leadership over the Luta Livre crew. Now, you can downdgrade his legacy if you want, but this is still in... hindsight.
Nobody expected Kerr to make him quit the way he did (crawlin´out of the ring), that was a true shocker, & this built his aura.
- THE Pedro : less , he was still hespected in the Vale Tudo scene, & it would be a reach to call him a 'jobber'.
Those dudes were hespected back then, considered tough mofos, & nobody expected them to fold the way they did.
- Fabio Gurgel: despite his inexpressive career, he was still considered ,at the time, one of the most legit BJJ BBs, & the BJJ community had high hopes for him, leadin´to the Kerr fight. His maulin´by Kerr was a shock to the BJJ community.
That´s the point: it´s pretty easy to reassess a legacy downgradin´fighters, but the reality is that, at the time, those pioneers were considered pretty legit & tough.
> Kerr´s 'aura':
Your assessment doesnt consider the real problematic behind Kerr´s run: Kerr´s aura of invicibility was not based on [hidden] glarin´holes in his skill sets that nobody saw b4 the Igor fight.
Kerr´s skill set was tailor-made for a specific Fight Configuration: the Vale Tudo one, which implies: 1- no stand-up [essential]
2- no rounds [essential]
3- time limit [essential]
4- headbutts [minor]
In that Fight Configuration, someone like Kerr is pretty much invincible.
Your assessment: no cardio and no toughness... is a moot point:
He went 30 mns against Gurgel, no rounds, in a gruelin´fight, no gloves.
The fact that his trainer Hamilton revealed his fragile state of mind b4 those Vale Tudo fights (cryin´b4 fights, feelin´the need to use PEDs to compensate, accordin´to Kerr) was an hidden info. at the time, you cant use it in... hindsight.
> Your take on No Rush´s run:
Assessment : "GSP was on an absolute tear and looking unbeatable when Serra happened."
That´s a pretty weird understandin´of his run b4 that fight, tbh...
2 fights b4 the Serra one, he had a controversial split dec. win over an undersized opponent [natural LW].
He arguably won, not necessarily because he was the better fighter (qualitatively weak assessment), but because the UFC´s Scorin´System tend to favour some 'neutral' technical sequences...
You said: "He clearly won 2 rounds against a fading BJ and took that one handily"
But, in terms of skill set bein´ 'exposed', this is what truly happened:
This is a problematic performance from a bigger opponent, @ OW. And this is not supposed to happen in Modern MMA [>2000].
Moreover, bein´bigger & with a longer reach, he was supposed to outstrike him, & this is definitely not what happened.
But... let´s double-check your claim & see if he was in any 'danger' in that fight:
QUESTION 1: What was his camp´s gameplan leadin´to that fight?
QUESTION 2: What happened in his corner at the end of the 1st Round?
The answer to these 2 questions will give us a pretty good idea of that 'aura' you claim he had after that fight.
> P4P Status:
1st of all, the fact that you´re assessin´Kerr´s legacy & claimin´that he was not elite is, again, a moot point.
He was considered top2 P4P (along with Igor), and sayin´otherwise is, again, in... hindsight.
2nd: was No Rush overlooked in those rankings, as you claim?
The 1st TS [vacant] he got was against Hieron & Karo.
Pretty good & legit opponents, for sure, but only in... hindsight.
We´re talkin´here about 2 rookies that shouldnt have granted him any TS, but... that was the state of the WW div. back then: disorganized & with undersized fighters comin´ from the lower classes (Sherk, BJ, Menjivar etc).
@ 4mn15:
Ivan explains that back then, lil dudes had limited options & had to fight against bigger dudes.
And you seem to forget the relatively bad showin´in the 1st Hughes fight...
In short: you cant assess a specific situation in hindsight, you need to consider the historical perspective.
>The Igor situation has already been assessed in the OP.
The thing is, even though one might consider ( I do) that Kerr was potentially fadin´ in that fight, you cant project. Without that [strange] rookie mistake (Igor´s manager did inquire about them rules b4 the fight, at the meetin´between Pride & them fighters), Igor could have reversed the situation, but, who knows... Kerr could have secured a late TD & cruise to the end of the fight with some L&P.
Tricky decision, then... Probably a split one.
> Kerr´s run:
You might consider some of these dudes "jobbers', but at the time, some of them were hespected in the Vale Tudo scene:
- Hugo Duarte: bust or not, he was representative of an era, which got him his leadership over the Luta Livre crew. Now, you can downdgrade his legacy if you want, but this is still in... hindsight.
Nobody expected Kerr to make him quit the way he did (crawlin´out of the ring), that was a true shocker, & this built his aura.
- THE Pedro : less , he was still hespected in the Vale Tudo scene, & it would be a reach to call him a 'jobber'.
Those dudes were hespected back then, considered tough mofos, & nobody expected them to fold the way they did.
- Fabio Gurgel: despite his inexpressive career, he was still considered ,at the time, one of the most legit BJJ BBs, & the BJJ community had high hopes for him, leadin´to the Kerr fight. His maulin´by Kerr was a shock to the BJJ community.
That´s the point: it´s pretty easy to reassess a legacy downgradin´fighters, but the reality is that, at the time, those pioneers were considered pretty legit & tough.
> Kerr´s 'aura':
Your assessment doesnt consider the real problematic behind Kerr´s run: Kerr´s aura of invicibility was not based on [hidden] glarin´holes in his skill sets that nobody saw b4 the Igor fight.
Kerr´s skill set was tailor-made for a specific Fight Configuration: the Vale Tudo one, which implies: 1- no stand-up [essential]
2- no rounds [essential]
3- time limit [essential]
4- headbutts [minor]
In that Fight Configuration, someone like Kerr is pretty much invincible.
Your assessment: no cardio and no toughness... is a moot point:
He went 30 mns against Gurgel, no rounds, in a gruelin´fight, no gloves.
The fact that his trainer Hamilton revealed his fragile state of mind b4 those Vale Tudo fights (cryin´b4 fights, feelin´the need to use PEDs to compensate, accordin´to Kerr) was an hidden info. at the time, you cant use it in... hindsight.
> Your take on No Rush´s run:
Assessment : "GSP was on an absolute tear and looking unbeatable when Serra happened."
That´s a pretty weird understandin´of his run b4 that fight, tbh...
2 fights b4 the Serra one, he had a controversial split dec. win over an undersized opponent [natural LW].
He arguably won, not necessarily because he was the better fighter (qualitatively weak assessment), but because the UFC´s Scorin´System tend to favour some 'neutral' technical sequences...
You said: "He clearly won 2 rounds against a fading BJ and took that one handily"
But, in terms of skill set bein´ 'exposed', this is what truly happened:
This is a problematic performance from a bigger opponent, @ OW. And this is not supposed to happen in Modern MMA [>2000].
Moreover, bein´bigger & with a longer reach, he was supposed to outstrike him, & this is definitely not what happened.
But... let´s double-check your claim & see if he was in any 'danger' in that fight:
QUESTION 1: What was his camp´s gameplan leadin´to that fight?
QUESTION 2: What happened in his corner at the end of the 1st Round?
The answer to these 2 questions will give us a pretty good idea of that 'aura' you claim he had after that fight.
> P4P Status:
1st of all, the fact that you´re assessin´Kerr´s legacy & claimin´that he was not elite is, again, a moot point.
He was considered top2 P4P (along with Igor), and sayin´otherwise is, again, in... hindsight.
2nd: was No Rush overlooked in those rankings, as you claim?
The 1st TS [vacant] he got was against Hieron & Karo.
Pretty good & legit opponents, for sure, but only in... hindsight.
We´re talkin´here about 2 rookies that shouldnt have granted him any TS, but... that was the state of the WW div. back then: disorganized & with undersized fighters comin´ from the lower classes (Sherk, BJ, Menjivar etc).
@ 4mn15:
Ivan explains that back then, lil dudes had limited options & had to fight against bigger dudes.
And you seem to forget the relatively bad showin´in the 1st Hughes fight...
In short: you cant assess a specific situation in hindsight, you need to consider the historical perspective.
1. Nobody had any idea who Kerr's opponents were before Igor and none of them were any good save Enson and Bobish (kinda). Well, Cikatic was the first K-1 GP Champ so the Japanese definitely knew him, but he was terrible at MMA. Honestly, MMA was just in its infancy, but the Luta Livre fighters you mentioned were absolutely jobbers and nowhere near elite even for the time. Duarte got absolutely raped by Tank before he fought Kerr and Ze Pedro fed on cans his entire career and lost whenever he faced anyone okay. They were not good fighters nor were they seen by anyone outside of their camps as being good. Ditto for Mestre Hulk and Gurgel. Whatever hype they had was drummed up by their camps as they already had losses to mediocre comp before they fought Kerr. No one considered them especially tough. The real hype behind Kerr was due to his physique and him crushing cans and there were a ton of people back in the day, myself included, who saw Kerr for what he really was: an untested roid-monkey front runner. When he finally fought a guy with the will and skill to fight back, he folded. And he kept doing that for the rest of his career. Regardless, even at his peak Mark Kerr was never the number one star in MMA or even close to it (nor did he deserve to be viewed as such) so he can't play the Mike Tyson role in this scenario. Fujita being an absolute unknown and coming in and outlasting him is a major upset, but in absolutely no way was it as major an upset as Buster/Tyson especially in hindsight (more to follow on hindsight a little later).
2. Kerr's cardio and heart were garbage. This is just the truth. You cite Gurgel/Kerr as an example of his conditioning but I have to wonder when was the last time you actually saw that fight? Kerr played the slow, methodical hammer for 30 minutes in that one, which is to say he took Gurgel down with ease and laid on top of him for 27 minutes with 3 minutes of decent offensive spurts. That was not a grueling fight in any way besides the time period involved. He paced himself well and Gurgel's face was a mess, but that was not an entertaining fight to watch for any other reason than to watch the Brazilians at ringside freaking out. Igor gave him his first truly grueling fight and we saw what Kerr was actually made of. Again, that was before the World GP and raised a lot of red flags with the fans that Kerr wasn't what he had been built up to be. He was not looked at in the same way Tyson was looked at in his prime and thus it was not nearly as big a thing when Fujita ended up outlasting him.
3. GSP earned his title shot ih his 8th professional fight because he looked so impressive against Karo and Hieron (along with his other wins in the old UCC) and because there was no one else available for Hughes to fight at that point. He'd either beaten everyone that mattered or they weren't in the UFC WW division. GSP was young and raw in that fight, but it was a good performance from him right up until Hughes countered his garbage kimura attempt with the straight armbar right as time was expiring. He'd taken Hughes down and he'd landed a beautiful spinning back kick to the solar plexus that had Hughes panic wrestling immediately. It was a good showing in defeat.
4. Sherk, Penn, and Menjivar took the fights at WW. In Menjivar's case I feel sorry cuz there was no 155 division in the UFC back then but BJ weighed in at 170 and Sherk had never even made the cut to 155 in MMA before he fought GSP. If you watch those fights with the last two mentioned it was GSP's quickness and technique as much as his size and strength that carried the day there. Also, those guys, along with Twinkle Toes were considered the best of the best at 170 not named Hughes and GSP beat them all cleanly, annihilating Sherk and Trigg to boot. They were actual quality WW's, no strings attached. When you factor in the shine GSP got from merc'ing Mr. Country Breakfast on PPV there is simply no comparing how legit GSP was considered to be (and was) to Kerr. He actually fought live bodies, handled adversity, and prevailed. Also, the entire world knew who he was. The world did not know Kerr at all. The amount of interest in a given fight determines the magnitude of the upset to a large extent (which is why Buster/Tyson was so huge) and there is no comparing the worldwide interest in MMA in 2007 to 2000. This was bigger by far.
5. You say we can't assess a specific situation in hindsight, that we have to consider the historical perspective. I on the other hand think hindsight is a valuable tool in determining something's true place in history. The Kerr/Fujita fight was a big upset but very few outside of Japan knew about it at all compared to GSP/Serra which still resonates throughout the annals of MMA history and everyone still talks about to this very day, just like Buster's upset. Also, Serra KO'ing GSP is a lot more Buster Douglas-esque than Fujita getting his ass handed to him for 5 minutes by Kerr before proceeding to knee Mark in the body while he turtled and had a coronary for the remainder of the fight. When you consider that Buster Douglas was viewed as a decent journeyman who came up short against the best before he got his shot at Tyson (he wasn't a complete rookie and unknown like Ironhead) I really think the GSP/Serra fight parallels the Tyson/Douglas fight far more from a pre-fight hype, magnitude,and actual fight result standpoint.
You had a lot of other points there, but I only have so much time to address them all so that's my take, brah.
1. Nobody had any idea who Kerr's opponents were before Igor and none of them were any good save Enson and Bobish (kinda). Well, Cikatic was the first K-1 GP Champ so the Japanese definitely knew him, but he was terrible at MMA. Honestly, MMA was just in its infancy, but the Luta Livre fighters you mentioned were absolutely jobbers and nowhere near elite even for the time. Duarte got absolutely raped by Tank before he fought Kerr and Ze Pedro fed on cans his entire career and lost whenever he faced anyone okay. They were not good fighters nor were they seen by anyone outside of their camps as being good. Ditto for Mestre Hulk and Gurgel. Whatever hype they had was drummed up by their camps as they already had losses to mediocre comp before they fought Kerr. No one considered them especially tough. The real hype behind Kerr was due to his physique and him crushing cans and there were a ton of people back in the day, myself included, who saw Kerr for what he really was: an untested roid-monkey front runner. When he finally fought a guy with the will and skill to fight back, he folded. And he kept doing that for the rest of his career. Regardless, even at his peak Mark Kerr was never the number one star in MMA or even close to it (nor did he deserve to be viewed as such) so he can't play the Mike Tyson role in this scenario. Fujita being an absolute unknown and coming in and outlasting him is a major upset, but in absolutely no way was it as major an upset as Buster/Tyson especially in hindsight (more to follow on hindsight a little later).
2. Kerr's cardio and heart were garbage. This is just the truth. You cite Gurgel/Kerr as an example of his conditioning but I have to wonder when was the last time you actually saw that fight? Kerr played the slow, methodical hammer for 30 minutes in that one, which is to say he took Gurgel down with ease and laid on top of him for 27 minutes with 3 minutes of decent offensive spurts. That was not a grueling fight in any way besides the time period involved. He paced himself well and Gurgel's face was a mess, but that was not an entertaining fight to watch for any other reason than to watch the Brazilians at ringside freaking out. Igor gave him his first truly grueling fight and we saw what Kerr was actually made of. Again, that was before the World GP and raised a lot of red flags with the fans that Kerr wasn't what he had been built up to be. He was not looked at in the same way Tyson was looked at in his prime and thus it was not nearly as big a thing when Fujita ended up outlasting him.
3. GSP earned his title shot ih his 8th professional fight because he looked so impressive against Karo and Hieron (along with his other wins in the old UCC) and because there was no one else available for Hughes to fight at that point. He'd either beaten everyone that mattered or they weren't in the UFC WW division. GSP was young and raw in that fight, but it was a good performance from him right up until Hughes countered his garbage kimura attempt with the straight armbar right as time was expiring. He'd taken Hughes down and he'd landed a beautiful spinning back kick to the solar plexus that had Hughes panic wrestling immediately. It was a good showing in defeat.
4. Sherk, Penn, and Menjivar took the fights at WW. In Menjivar's case I feel sorry cuz there was no 155 division in the UFC back then but BJ weighed in at 170 and Sherk had never even made the cut to 155 in MMA before he fought GSP. If you watch those fights with the last two mentioned it was GSP's quickness and technique as much as his size and strength that carried the day there. Also, those guys, along with Twinkle Toes were considered the best of the best at 170 not named Hughes and GSP beat them all cleanly, annihilating Sherk and Trigg to boot. They were actual quality WW's, no strings attached. When you factor in the shine GSP got from merc'ing Mr. Country Breakfast on PPV there is simply no comparing how legit GSP was considered to be (and was) to Kerr. He actually fought live bodies, handled adversity, and prevailed. Also, the entire world knew who he was. The world did not know Kerr at all. The amount of interest in a given fight determines the magnitude of the upset to a large extent (which is why Buster/Tyson was so huge) and there is no comparing the worldwide interest in MMA in 2007 to 2000. This was bigger by far.
5. You say we can't assess a specific situation in hindsight, that we have to consider the historical perspective. I on the other hand think hindsight is a valuable tool in determining something's true place in history. The Kerr/Fujita fight was a big upset but very few outside of Japan knew about it at all compared to GSP/Serra which still resonates throughout the annals of MMA history and everyone still talks about to this very day, just like Buster's upset. Also, Serra KO'ing GSP is a lot more Buster Douglas-esque than Fujita getting his ass handed to him for 5 minutes by Kerr before proceeding to knee Mark in the body while he turtled and had a coronary for the remainder of the fight. When you consider that Buster Douglas was viewed as a decent journeyman who came up short against the best before he got his shot at Tyson (he wasn't a complete rookie and unknown like Ironhead) I really think the GSP/Serra fight parallels the Tyson/Douglas fight far more from a pre-fight hype, magnitude,and actual fight result standpoint.
You had a lot of other points there, but I only have so much time to address them all so that's my take, brah.
1- "Nobody had any idea who Kerr's opponents were before Igor".
> Inaccurate. As already stated, fighters like Duarte, THE Pedro & Gurgel were known, be it by the BJJ community or from the Vale Tudo scene. Definitely not unknown if you were followin´the scene back then.
"none of them were any good"
> already assessed. You didnt bring any new element here.
tbh I always have an extreme displeasure at readin´ the word "can" ´round here...
Your assessment of that era is a lil bit biased:
- pro-US MMA
- pro-No Rush
I presume that you consider No Rush´s pre-UFC opponents more 'legit' than these dudes, but it´s highly debattable. Duarte: Like it or not, Duarte had a real leadership in the Vale Tudo Scene (nickname: 'The General').
You have to assess the way he was perceived at the time, not in hindsight, it´s literally pointless to do otherwise. The fact that he got a Pride contract after the Tank fight is an indication of his credentials. Gurgel: 5 fights, short career...but you´re callin´him a 'can'... That´s pretty baseless. No shame in losin´to Kerr or Bohlander by dec. THE Pedro: [natural MW/LHW], for instance, had to fight monsters @ OW. That was the sad reality back then, somethin´ that you´ll definitely need to acknowledge. QUESTION: Who won the Big Daddy fight, accordin´ to you?
"The real hype behind Kerr was due to his physique and him crushing cans"
> again, in hindsight, those fighters were valued back then. You´re basically reassessin´legacies.
"even at his peak Mark Kerr was never the number one star in MMA or even close to it "
> inaccurate. He was considered top2 P4P b4 the Igor fight. The sport was consolidatin´ itself. - Context : Vale Tudo Scene [1997-1999]:
The New Full Contact:
Q: Mark Kerr is abeating machine. In a no time-limit match, would that pay off?
HENZO: "You have to start a match agressively. I think the difference in weight is so big because they are using steroids. It took me 6 or 7 years to get heavier. I was 67kg and now I'm 82 kg. They get heavier than that in a month."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: So do you mean fighters like Maurice Smith and Mark Kerr aren't on the same levels as the fighters here in Japan?
HICKSON:"Exactly. When I watch them fight, I see so many openings that even my son could capitalize on. I'm not saying they are bad fighters, just that I see many holes in them."
Q: How would you see a match with Mark Kerr going?
HICKSON: "Kerr is a big strong guy with a good base. I would imagine him tiring out and giving me an opening."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: Why fight Takada again and not a top fighter like Koshaka, Sato, or even an American like Kerr?
HICKSON:"I feel Takada is a warrior and deserves the chance to try and redeem himself."
Q: Who do you feel are the best fighters today?
HICKSON:"I feel Kerr and Erickson are very strong and that Sato and Sperry have excellent technique. But the biggest challenger would have to be Erickson."
Q: What do you say to the people who criticize you and say that you only fight "weak" opponents and are dodging the top fighters like Kerr?
HICKSON: "I tell them, if somebody wants to fight me that bad then come to my school."
Q: But you were offered to take Royce's place in the Pride event and declined. Why?
HICKSON: "I never take a fight on 1 month notice. If they want me to fight Kerr, then give me three months in advance."
Full Contact Fighter:
Q: A recent back injury, forced you to cancel an upcoming fight with Mark Kerr in the Japanese Pride-2 event, how did you hurt your back?
HOYCE:"That, I don't know. I woke up, my hand was numb, next day the whole arm was numb, the whole leg was numb, two weeks without doing anything, the other leg got numb, the other foot got numb. The doctor said it could be jump-rope, could be running, could be training, could be lifting weights."
Q: Who are the fighters that you'd be most interested in fighting?
HOYCE: "Mark Kerr, cause I was scheduled to fight him. So, I would like to come back and fight him."
Q: What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Royce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Royce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
presented by bro Fannin in this thread:
On the left side:
> above: "You are the only one who can defeat the Gracies!", you can read:
"Mark Kerr. Born in 1968... Current seen as "invincible" in fights with no rules! "
2- "Kerr's cardio and heart were garbage. This is just the truth. You cite Gurgel/Kerr as an example of his conditioning but I have to wonder when was the last time you actually saw that fight?"
> You dont seem aware of the fight conditions back then.
Fightin´durin´30 mns, no rounds, no stand-ups, no real AC in a very hot country like Brazil...
Here, Ebenezer explained the hardcore conditions of the Vale Tudo scene in Brazil.
He had to fight in North Brazil, and he almost 'passed' out durin´the fight because of the humidity & heath...
3- "GSP earned his title shot ih his 8th professional fight because he looked so impressive against Karo and Hieron (along with his other wins in the old UCC) "
> No Rush didnt earn a legit TS, that´s a fallacy.
Both Hieron & Karo, who ended up havin´a legit career, were literal rookies at the time in the UFC.
Meanwhile, in UCC he got the TS (!?!) for his 2nd pro-fight, from Stephane Patry, (UCC CEO &.... No Rush´s Manager!) to fight Justin Bruckmann...
He got the TS after a highly controversial endin´against Menjivar (No Rush himself took the mic & said that
the Menjivar fight should be considered a NC.
in French> "Pour moi, c´est un MATCH NUL" = "For me, this is a DRAW / NC"
@ 9mn14:
"It was a good showing in defeat."
> hmmm... Your technical assessment of that fight is a lil bit overrated & pretty inaccurate, tbh.
He did take Hughes down pretty quickly (@4mn25), but inflicted no damage, and Hughes got back to his feet after a few sec.
The only other legit scorin´in that Round was:
- the spinnin´shit @ 2mn, technical sequence that you´re a lil bit overratin´ since Hughes was not goin´forward, he was actually anticipatin´it & goin´backwards.
- & a left jab @ 4mn35.
Ground Control No Rush = 10 sec
Then Hughes got his 1st TD, slammed him.
Ground Control = 44 sec but no real damage inflicted
Then Hughes got his 2nd TD.
Ground Control = 1mn15 sec
TOTAL Ground Control Hughes = 2mn. That´s a lot under UFC´s Scorin´System.
"Sherk, Penn, and Menjivar took the fights at WW. In Menjivar's case I feel sorry cuz there was no 155 division in the UFC back then"
> That was the sad reality for the lil dudes back then. 155 div. for Ivan? He literally finished his career
as a BW [see his fight vs Tokoro]
"If you watch those fights with the last two mentioned it was GSP's quickness and technique as much as his size and strength that carried the day there."
> Legit fallacy here.
Here, I have to repeat my 2 questions about the 1st BJ fight:
QUESTION 1: What was his camp´s gameplan leadin´to that fight?
QUESTION 2: What happened in his corner at the end of the 1st Round?
"They were actual quality WW's, no strings attached."
> Again, lack of historical perspective here. The WW div. was in a transitional era.
Those fighters were not natural WWs, jus´like Suloev was not a legit LHW when he fought Chuck in UFC,
or Kanehara was not a legit LHW when he fought Ricardo Morais in Rings.
"He actually fought live bodies, handled adversity, and prevailed."
> Moot point again, since in... hindsight. You´re literally reassessin´legacies without acknowledgin´the context of that era.
"The world did not know Kerr at all. "
> See the Vale Tudo Contexts quoted above (magazines from: USA/Japan/Brazil).
a- Frederico Lapenda [WVC CEO] is actually the 1st one to give Kerr an opportunity in his Brazilian Vale Tudo Org.
b- b4 the Fujita fight, in March, ADCC offered him a huge amount of money
c- Despite your narrative, Pride did offer him a fortune to sign with them
KERR: "I ended up going to the Abu Dhabi Combat Championships a month before the finals. It was stupid, but it was close to six figures in cash. In 2000, to do a grappling event and make almost six figures for one event? It doesn't take much math to figure it out. But if I balanced it out -- being the Pride champ, which would've been $250,000 plus my appearance fee, I probably lost $200,000."
KERR: "The first six Prides, they pushed to make me the biggest star I could possibly be over there. I flew out weeks in advance to do radio, TV, photo shoots."
HYAMS: "Here you have a fighter in Kerr making good money from this and is essentially the champion. I think Pride's philosophy was, you build up fighters to a point. But no fighter should be someone who can dictate the direction of the company and his career. It indicated that they wanted to put everyone on notice, that you're a champion only as long as we say you are."
"The amount of interest in a given fight determines the magnitude of the upset to a large extent (which is why Buster/Tyson was so huge) and there is no comparing the worldwide interest in MMA in 2007 to 2000. This was bigger by far."
> Moot point again, we´re talkin´about the MMA fanbase.
"The Kerr/Fujita fight was a big upset but very few outside of Japan knew about it at all compared to GSP/Serra which still resonates throughout the annals of MMA history and everyone still talks about to this very day, just like Buster's upset. "
> It´s because we are here in a North-American websites, & the Serra fight was more hyped here for obvious reasons. Stephen Quadros:"Kazuyuki Fujita shocked the worldwith a dominant victory over Kerr"
1- "Nobody had any idea who Kerr's opponents were before Igor".
> Inaccurate. As already stated, fighters like Duarte, THE Pedro & Gurgel were known, be it by the BJJ community or from the Vale Tudo scene. Definitely not unknown if you were followin´the scene back then.
"none of them were any good"
> already assessed. You didnt bring any new element here.
tbh I always have an extreme displeasure at readin´ the word "can" ´round here...
Your assessment of that era is a lil bit biased:
- pro-US MMA
- pro-No Rush
I presume that you consider No Rush´s pre-UFC opponents more 'legit' than these dudes, but it´s highly debattable. Duarte: Like it or not, Duarte had a real leadership in the Vale Tudo Scene (nickname: 'The General').
You have to assess the way he was perceived at the time, not in hindsight, it´s literally pointless to do otherwise. The fact that he got a Pride contract after the Tank fight is an indication of his credentials. Gurgel: 5 fights, short career...but you´re callin´him a 'can'... That´s pretty baseless. No shame in losin´to Kerr or Bohlander by dec. THE Pedro: [natural MW/LHW], for instance, had to fight monsters @ OW. That was the sad reality back then, somethin´ that you´ll definitely need to acknowledge. QUESTION: Who won the Big Daddy fight, accordin´ to you?
"The real hype behind Kerr was due to his physique and him crushing cans"
> again, in hindsight, those fighters were valued back then. You´re basically reassessin´legacies.
"even at his peak Mark Kerr was never the number one star in MMA or even close to it "
> inaccurate. He was considered top2 P4P b4 the Igor fight. The sport was consolidatin´ itself. - Context : Vale Tudo Scene [1997-1999]:
The New Full Contact:
Q: Mark Kerr is abeating machine. In a no time-limit match, would that pay off?
HENZO: "You have to start a match agressively. I think the difference in weight is so big because they are using steroids. It took me 6 or 7 years to get heavier. I was 67kg and now I'm 82 kg. They get heavier than that in a month."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: So do you mean fighters like Maurice Smith and Mark Kerr aren't on the same levels as the fighters here in Japan?
HICKSON:"Exactly. When I watch them fight, I see so many openings that even my son could capitalize on. I'm not saying they are bad fighters, just that I see many holes in them."
Q: How would you see a match with Mark Kerr going?
HICKSON: "Kerr is a big strong guy with a good base. I would imagine him tiring out and giving me an opening."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: Why fight Takada again and not a top fighter like Koshaka, Sato, or even an American like Kerr?
HICKSON:"I feel Takada is a warrior and deserves the chance to try and redeem himself."
Q: Who do you feel are the best fighters today?
HICKSON:"I feel Kerr and Erickson are very strong and that Sato and Sperry have excellent technique. But the biggest challenger would have to be Erickson."
Q: What do you say to the people who criticize you and say that you only fight "weak" opponents and are dodging the top fighters like Kerr?
HICKSON: "I tell them, if somebody wants to fight me that bad then come to my school."
Q: But you were offered to take Royce's place in the Pride event and declined. Why?
HICKSON: "I never take a fight on 1 month notice. If they want me to fight Kerr, then give me three months in advance."
Full Contact Fighter:
Q: A recent back injury, forced you to cancel an upcoming fight with Mark Kerr in the Japanese Pride-2 event, how did you hurt your back?
HOYCE:"That, I don't know. I woke up, my hand was numb, next day the whole arm was numb, the whole leg was numb, two weeks without doing anything, the other leg got numb, the other foot got numb. The doctor said it could be jump-rope, could be running, could be training, could be lifting weights."
Q: Who are the fighters that you'd be most interested in fighting?
HOYCE: "Mark Kerr, cause I was scheduled to fight him. So, I would like to come back and fight him."
Q: What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Royce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Royce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
presented by bro Fannin in this thread:
On the left side:
> above: "You are the only one who can defeat the Gracies!", you can read:
"Mark Kerr. Born in 1968... Current seen as "invincible" in fights with no rules! "
2- "Kerr's cardio and heart were garbage. This is just the truth. You cite Gurgel/Kerr as an example of his conditioning but I have to wonder when was the last time you actually saw that fight?"
> You dont seem aware of the fight conditions back then.
Fightin´durin´30 mns, no rounds, no stand-ups, no real AC in a very hot country like Brazil...
Here, Ebenezer explained the hardcore conditions of the Vale Tudo scene in Brazil.
He had to fight in North Brazil, and he almost 'passed' out durin´the fight because of the humidity & heath...
3- "GSP earned his title shot ih his 8th professional fight because he looked so impressive against Karo and Hieron (along with his other wins in the old UCC) "
> No Rush didnt earn a legit TS, that´s a fallacy.
Both Hieron & Karo, who ended up havin´a legit career, were literal rookies at the time in the UFC.
Meanwhile, in UCC he got the TS (!?!) for his 2nd pro-fight, from Stephane Patry, (UCC CEO &.... No Rush´s Manager!) to fight Justin Bruckmann...
He got the TS after a highly controversial endin´against Menjivar (No Rush himself took the mic & said that
the Menjivar fight should be considered a NC.
in French> "Pour moi, c´est un MATCH NUL" = "For me, this is a DRAW / NC"
@ 9mn14:
"It was a good showing in defeat."
> hmmm... Your technical assessment of that fight is a lil bit overrated & pretty inaccurate, tbh.
He did take Hughes down pretty quickly (@4mn25), but inflicted no damage, and Hughes got back to his feet after a few sec.
The only other legit scorin´in that Round was:
- the spinnin´shit @ 2mn, technical sequence that you´re a lil bit overratin´ since Hughes was not goin´forward, he was actually anticipatin´it & goin´backwards.
Ground Control = 1mn15 sec
TOTAL Ground Control Hughes = 2mn. That´s a lot under UFC´s Scorin´System.
"Sherk, Penn, and Menjivar took the fights at WW. In Menjivar's case I feel sorry cuz there was no 155 division in the UFC back then"
> That was the sad reality for the lil dudes back then. 155 div. for Ivan? He literally finished his career
as a BW [see his fight vs Tokoro]
"If you watch those fights with the last two mentioned it was GSP's quickness and technique as much as his size and strength that carried the day there."
> Legit fallacy here.
Here, I have to repeat my 2 questions about the 1st BJ fight:
QUESTION 1: What was his camp´s gameplan leadin´to that fight?
QUESTION 2: What happened in his corner at the end of the 1st Round?
"They were actual quality WW's, no strings attached."
> Again, lack of historical perspective here. The WW div. was in a transitional era.
Those fighters were not natural WWs, jus´like Suloev was not a legit LHW when he fought Chuck in UFC,
or Kanehara was not a legit LHW when he fought Ricardo Morais in Rings.
"He actually fought live bodies, handled adversity, and prevailed."
> Moot point again, since in... hindsight. You´re literally reassessin´legacies without acknowledgin´the context of that era.
"The world did not know Kerr at all. "
> See the Vale Tudo Contexts quoted above (magazines from: USA/Japan/Brazil).
a- Frederico Lapenda [WVC CEO] is actually the 1st one to give Kerr an opportunity in his Brazilian Vale Tudo Org.
b- b4 the Fujita fight, in March, ADCC offered him a huge amount of money
c- Despite your narrative, Pride did offer him a fortune to sign with them
Kerr: "I
ended up going to the Abu Dhabi Combat Championships a month before the finals. It was stupid, but it was close to six figures in cash. In 2000, to do a grappling event and make almost six figures for one event? It doesn't take much math to figure it out. But if I balanced it out -- being the Pride champ, which would've been $250,000 plus my appearance fee, I probably lost $200,000."
"The amount of interest in a given fight determines the magnitude of the upset to a large extent (which is why Buster/Tyson was so huge) and there is no comparing the worldwide interest in MMA in 2007 to 2000. This was bigger by far."
> Moot point again, we´re talkin´about the MMA fanbase.
"The Kerr/Fujita fight was a big upset but very few outside of Japan knew about it at all compared to GSP/Serra which still resonates throughout the annals of MMA history and everyone still talks about to this very day, just like Buster's upset. "
> It´s because we are here in a North-American websites, & the Serra fight was more hyped here for obvious reasons. Stephen Quadros:"Kazuyuki Fujita shocked the worldwith a dominant victory over Kerr"
Man, I respect your opinions but it is so freakin' labour-intensive to respond to your posts point by point. I'll just try to go over my basic points while touching on yours and see if I can't distill this down to some essential elements.
You claim that Fujita's upset of Mark Kerr was on the level of Buster/Tyson meaning that it was just as big a shock and just as meaningful as Douglas KO'ing Tyson. Right? That's what you mean by MMA's Buster Douglas, in this case played by ol' Ironhead? If I'm incorrect there please clarify.
I claim that the amount of interest in that fight before and after was a tiny fraction of Buster's big day and the audience and world attention generated by the Serra/GSP fight and the nature of the subsequent upset automatically puts it closer to Douglas/Tyson. More eyeballs make a fight more significant and that makes any upsets mean more overall. Cuz if we're just talking about one fighter prevailing against the posted odds then there are quite literally thousands of examples of underdogs overcoming the favourite in a fight that we can look at. Hell, JDS/Werdum was a way bigger upset than Fujita/Kerr from an odds perspective. How 'bout Sokodjou/Lil Nog? Those were every bit as big a surprise as any in the history of MMA but no one talks about them in the context of greatest MMA upsets or puts them on the level of Buster/Tyson cuz there was relatively little importance attached to them at the time/they weren't actual title fights (which Kerr/Fujita wasn't either). My point is the magnitude of the Kerr loss paled in comparison to GSP's due to the fact that outside of Japan and a small number of MMA websites no one cared about Fujita's upset win. The sport was so much smaller back in 2000 than it was in 2007 it wasn't even funny.
You're defending a lot of the old school Vale Tudo guys Kerr fought as being legit for the time and really tough guys; my point is that they were fighting nobodies themselves and when they stepped up in competition they invariably got worked, which shows that they were meh at best. And we knew this prior to May 1, 2000. We also knew what happened to Mark Kerr when he was put in a bad spot before May 1st too. His invincible shine was removed a year before by Igor and a weak LnP win over Enson (who was most certainly not a natural HW) and success at ADCC did little to repair it. If you're making the Tyson/Douglas comparison Kerr didn't truly have that aura that Mike brought with him of being an unbeaten killing machine. Mind you, GSP wasn't undefeated either, although he was on a roll. That bears further consideration on my part.
You claim that GSP did not deserve a title shot against Matt Hughes because he didn't have enough experience against high-level opposition; my position is that he did based on his previous body of work, the two big wins in the UFC against Karo and Hieron being the main points, and the fact that there wasn't really anyone else viable to put against Hughes at the time. Hughes was one of their biggest stars and needed a fight... who else was there to put him against that was available and relevant? As it turned out it was a competitive fight for as long as it lasted and it would have been interesting to see how it would've gone if GSP got out of the first round. Whatever, we can agree to disagree on this one and it doesn't really have too much to do with our original topic even if it is fun to discuss. For the record, Karo wasn't a UFC rookie when GSP baet him; he'd tapped out Strasser with an impressive ude garami about six months before and probably would have been the one to earn the next title shot if he'd beaten GSP.
I honestly can't tell you what GSP's camp's strategy was for the 1st BJ fight was nor do I remember what was said between rounds. Feel free to illuminate me. Regardless, I do remember GSP going on one of the most impressive tears in WW history where he beat BJ, along with a host of others, in dominant fashion that had him looking like a monster in the division. You clearly don't like GSP and there are a number of reasons why that may be the case but do you truly perceive that Kerr in May of 2000 was viewed as a more dominant fighter than GSP in April 2007?
And now I come to your main issue which you circle back to continually; hindsight. Specifically, what you call my use of it. The way you phrase it, "In short: you cant assess a specific situation in hindsight, you need to consider the historical perspective." Not trying to be a jerk but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that nor do I understand how you consider a historical perspective without using it. I think what you're getting at is that Kerr was, at the time of the Fujita fight, perceived as being unbeatable or having a monster aura about him. Is that right? If so, I completely disagree due to the what happened about a year before against Igor and how weak his previous opposition really was. This is using hindsight to an extent, but it's also how I saw Kerr as being that way at the time. I was still a fan back then and even on the SD we always remarked about Kerr never facing legit opposition at the time. That was a popular opinion of him back in the day and it only got stronger after he fought Vov. The Japanese may have looked at him a certain way, but the MMA community as a whole and their interpretation of him and his skills were not so unanimous. So I would argue when I'm talking about Kerr being overrated I'm not basing it on how bad he proved to be when he actually fought top fighters AFTER the GP, I'm talking about how unproven and fragile he looked to the community BEFORE Fujita beat him. This downplays the significance of Fujita beating him and to me puts this upset well below Tyson/Douglas-level. I hope I said that in a way that makes sense.
Conversely, at the time Serra beat GSP he was rightfully considered one of the top P4P fighters in the world by the majority of the MMA community and the unquestioned top 170 pounder. He had all the momentum in the world having just absolutely destroyed the best WW of all-time (up until that point) and had more eyeballs on him than Kerr ever had at a time when the sport had entered the mainstream and was truly known worldwide. The hype behind him was huge, and rightfully so, and this fight with Serra was just seen as a mere formality till he went on to bigger and better things in the future (the parallels with Buster/Tyson are huge here). Serra was a decent LW journeyman who decided to bulk up to WW and try his hand at 170 and had had a little bit of success in doing so. He had no KO victories in his career and was a huge underdog (+850). Millions of people, hell tens of millions probably, saw Serra shock the world that night. This was the most significant upset in the history of MMA and nothing even really comes close in terms of significance, at least in my mind. Serra deserves to be recognized as the Buster Douglas of MMA for this fight and he generally is and saying that that title belongs to Fujita for a fight that fewer people saw, in a tournament setting, where it really wasn't even the most anticipated fight on the card just doesn't sit right with me.
My word, that was a longass response. How do you do this all the time?
Man, I respect your opinions but it is so freakin' labour-intensive to respond to your posts point by point. I'll just try to go over my basic points while touching on yours and see if I can't distill this down to some essential elements.
You claim that Fujita's upset of Mark Kerr was on the level of Buster/Tyson meaning that it was just as big a shock and just as meaningful as Douglas KO'ing Tyson. Right? That's what you mean by MMA's Buster Douglas, in this case played by ol' Ironhead? If I'm incorrect there please clarify.
I claim that the amount of interest in that fight before and after was a tiny fraction of Buster's big day and the audience and world attention generated by the Serra/GSP fight and the nature of the subsequent upset automatically puts it closer to Douglas/Tyson. More eyeballs make a fight more significant and that makes any upsets mean more overall. Cuz if we're just talking about one fighter prevailing against the posted odds then there are quite literally thousands of examples of underdogs overcoming the favourite in a fight that we can look at. Hell, JDS/Werdum was a way bigger upset than Fujita/Kerr from an odds perspective. How 'bout Sokodjou/Lil Nog? Those were every bit as big a surprise as any in the history of MMA but no one talks about them in the context of greatest MMA upsets or puts them on the level of Buster/Tyson cuz there was relatively little importance attached to them at the time/they weren't actual title fights (which Kerr/Fujita wasn't either). My point is the magnitude of the Kerr loss paled in comparison to GSP's due to the fact that outside of Japan and a small number of MMA websites no one cared about Fujita's upset win. The sport was so much smaller back in 2000 than it was in 2007 it wasn't even funny.
You're defending a lot of the old school Vale Tudo guys Kerr fought as being legit for the time and really tough guys; my point is that they were fighting nobodies themselves and when they stepped up in competition they invariably got worked, which shows that they were meh at best. And we knew this prior to May 1, 2000. We also knew what happened to Mark Kerr when he was put in a bad spot before May 1st too. His invincible shine was removed a year before by Igor and a weak LnP win over Enson (who was most certainly not a natural HW) and success at ADCC did little to repair it. If you're making the Tyson/Douglas comparison Kerr didn't truly have that aura that Mike brought with him of being an unbeaten killing machine. Mind you, GSP wasn't undefeated either, although he was on a roll. That bears further consideration on my part.
You claim that GSP did not deserve a title shot against Matt Hughes because he didn't have enough experience against high-level opposition; my position is that he did based on his previous body of work, the two big wins in the UFC against Karo and Hieron being the main points, and the fact that there wasn't really anyone else viable to put against Hughes at the time. Hughes was one of their biggest stars and needed a fight... who else was there to put him against that was available and relevant? As it turned out it was a competitive fight for as long as it lasted and it would have been interesting to see how it would've gone if GSP got out of the first round. Whatever, we can agree to disagree on this one and it doesn't really have too much to do with our original topic even if it is fun to discuss. For the record, Karo wasn't a UFC rookie when GSP baet him; he'd tapped out Strasser with an impressive ude garami about six months before and probably would have been the one to earn the next title shot if he'd beaten GSP.
I honestly can't tell you what GSP's camp's strategy was for the 1st BJ fight was nor do I remember what was said between rounds. Feel free to illuminate me. Regardless, I do remember GSP going on one of the most impressive tears in WW history where he beat BJ, along with a host of others, in dominant fashion that had him looking like a monster in the division. You clearly don't like GSP and there are a number of reasons why that may be the case but do you truly perceive that Kerr in May of 2000 was viewed as a more dominant fighter than GSP in April 2007?
And now I come to your main issue which you circle back to continually; hindsight. Specifically, what you call my use of it. The way you phrase it, "In short: you cant assess a specific situation in hindsight, you need to consider the historical perspective." Not trying to be a jerk but I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that nor do I understand how you consider a historical perspective without using it. I think what you're getting at is that Kerr was, at the time of the Fujita fight, perceived as being unbeatable or having a monster aura about him. Is that right? If so, I completely disagree due to the what happened about a year before against Igor and how weak his previous opposition really was. This is using hindsight to an extent, but it's also how I saw Kerr as being that way at the time. I was still a fan back then and even on the SD we always remarked about Kerr never facing legit opposition at the time. That was a popular opinion of him back in the day and it only got stronger after he fought Vov. The Japanese may have looked at him a certain way, but the MMA community as a whole and their interpretation of him and his skills were not so unanimous. So I would argue when I'm talking about Kerr being overrated I'm not basing it on how bad he proved to be when he actually fought top fighters AFTER the GP, I'm talking about how unproven and fragile he looked to the community BEFORE Fujita beat him. This downplays the significance of Fujita beating him and to me puts this upset well below Tyson/Douglas-level. I hope I said that in a way that makes sense.
Conversely, at the time Serra beat GSP he was rightfully considered one of the top P4P fighters in the world by the majority of the MMA community and the unquestioned top 170 pounder. He had all the momentum in the world having just absolutely destroyed the best WW of all-time (up until that point) and had more eyeballs on him than Kerr ever had at a time when the sport had entered the mainstream and was truly known worldwide. The hype behind him was huge, and rightfully so, and this fight with Serra was just seen as a mere formality till he went on to bigger and better things in the future (the parallels with Buster/Tyson are huge here). Serra was a decent LW journeyman who decided to bulk up to WW and try his hand at 170 and had had a little bit of success in doing so. He had no KO victories in his career and was a huge underdog (+850). Millions of people, hell tens of millions probably, saw Serra shock the world that night. This was the most significant upset in the history of MMA and nothing even really comes close in terms of significance, at least in my mind. Serra deserves to be recognized as the Buster Douglas of MMA for this fight and he generally is and saying that that title belongs to Fujita for a fight that fewer people saw, in a tournament setting, where it really wasn't even the most anticipated fight on the card just doesn't sit right with me.
My word, that was a longass response. How do you do this all the time?
You’re the most stubborn clown on here lol. This guy reiterated exactly the same things I did. You simply choose not to listen.
Your random Kerr quotes from Brazilian cans wont do anything to change what most knew about Kerr at the time. Fought nobodies, got worked by first real comp he fought and never won a legit fight afterwards.
You’re the most stubborn clown on here lol. This guy reiterated exactly the same things I did. You simply choose not to listen.
Your random Kerr quotes from Brazilian cans wont do anything to change what most knew about Kerr at the time. Fought nobodies, got worked by first real comp he fought and never won a legit fight afterwards.
hmm..nah... tbh you rarely say anythin´besides those 2-3 lines with 'lols' at the end.
You´re a 'lol' poster, my dear natty friend...
Anyway, the other poster is actually the one who didnt listen since he didnt counter my arguments, & didnt answer 3 questions...jus´ like you... Still waitin´for your answer... (but can you? This is the question):
Igor fought these grapplers, for instance:
Leonardo Castello Branco
Nick Nutter
Mikhail Avetisyan
Carlos Barreto
Valery Pliev
John Dixson
Igor Akhmedov
Vasily Kudin
Sergei Bondarovich
Edson Carvalho
Nah. Knowing Serra was a complete can is worse than losing to an unknown. Like when they were pairing up CroCop with guys like Eddie Sanchez and Gonzaga. I just didn't know cuz these guys were unknown so I wasn't confident. Same with Soko va Lil Nog and Arona. It's much more shocking losing to a known can than say Doom losing to JDS because hey, JDS could be the next big thing. I don't consider unknowns winning much of an upset. Specially if there isn't much tape on them. Happens all the time to everyone if given the opportunity. GSP losing to a complete can, a guaranteed free win like Serra is much much worse and more shocking.
Hell, Rockhold losing to fucking clown Bisping is worse.
hmm..nah... tbh you rarely say anythin´besides those 2-3 lines with 'lols' at the end.
You´re a 'lol' poster, my dear natty friend...
Anyway, the other poster is actually the one who didnt listen since he didnt counter my arguments, & didnt answer 3 questions...jus´ like you... Still waitin´for your answer... (but can you? This is the question):
Igor fought these grapplers, for instance:
Leonardo Castello Branco
Nick Nutter
Mikhail Avetisyan
Carlos Barreto
Valery Pliev
John Dixson
Igor Akhmedov
Vasily Kudin
Sergei Bondarovich
Edson Carvalho
Dont need to, cans in the grand scheme of things. You can put your "at the time" twist on anything you'd like, fact is they aren't even worth discussing........the idea that you're arguing Igor as a literal standup fighter is simply testament to your stubborness and desire to argue.
Carry on old guard, it's still real to you damnit!
Dont need to, cans in the grand scheme of things. You can put your "at the time" twist on anything you'd like, fact is they aren't even worth discussing........the idea that you're arguing Igor
This is the 3rd debate where you cant even own your ass-whoopin´ like a man...
And you were not even trapped here, you´re the one who insisted on talkin´about Igor´s skill set...
The hell? I always use paragraphs. That's what those spaces between statements indicate. I could use more if that's what you mean but then they'll start looking more like stream of consciousness rambling and make it harder to quote directly... like yours. Seriously, your responses take up so much space it's truly hard to take in and the changes i font colour remind me of the old school Angelfire pages people used to throw up back in the late 90's. Good, concise responses like above make this much easier.
Anyways, I already stated I don't know what GSP's gameplan was before the BJ fight and I don't remember what GSP's corner instructed him to do. It also has very little to do with the discussion at hand. GSP beat BJ cleanly twice when BJ was at his best. That unquestionably adds to his greatness. The fact that BJ was significantly smaller takes a bit of shine away from that, but BJ was also a former WW champ and a legitimate threat to anyone at pretty much any weight class. We're getting off-topic a bit here so I'll rein it in. Feel free to let us all know what the answers to the above questions are and how it relates to our discussion.
Goodridge beat Ze Pedro on paper, but you and I both know that was some of the cheapest garbage in the brief history of MMA he pulled on Otavio. Using your feet to crush your opponent's pills from the guard? Props for creativity, but Gary was very fortunate to leave Brazil breathing. Those fans were screamin' for blood. Anyways, he should have been DQ'd and Pedro should have won but the fact that he was going back and forth in a war with that incredibly raw version of Goodridge indicates to me that he was just not that good a fighter. Therefore a win over him did little to advance Kerr's standing in MMA, which quite a few of us saw back in the day.
Hadn't watched GSP/Hughes in a couple years so I just hit up Fightpass and I can agree that Hughes won that round before the armbar but it was most certainly not a poor performance from GSP either. He was very young and green on the biggest stage of his life and kept up with the consensus WW GOAT pretty well... till he didn't. Seems like you have a problem with GSP; care to elaborate?
Regardless, I have responded repeatedly to the main crux of your argument that Fujita is MMA's true Buster Douglas; namely, that Kerr/Fujita was in no way, shape or form a big or important enough fight to begin with to even compare. That honour belongs to GSP/Serra in my eyes. The reasoning behind all of this is in my posts before. Feel free to respond to the arguments I've clearly made before you repeat yourself again and again about hindsight, historical perspective, etc. I've already addressed all of it in my previous post. Let's see if we can stay on topic, here.
And there are 6 paragraphs here counting this one.
The hell? I always use paragraphs. That's what those spaces between statements indicate. I could use more if that's what you mean but then they'll start looking more like stream of consciousness rambling and make it harder to quote directly... like yours. Seriously, your responses take up so much space it's truly hard to take in and the changes i font colour remind me of the old school Angelfire pages people used to throw up back in the late 90's. Good, concise responses like above make this much easier.
Anyways, I already stated I don't know what GSP's gameplan was before the BJ fight and I don't remember what GSP's corner instructed him to do. It also has very little to do with the discussion at hand. GSP beat BJ cleanly twice when BJ was at his best. That unquestionably adds to his greatness. The fact that BJ was significantly smaller takes a bit of shine away from that, but BJ was also a former WW champ and a legitimate threat to anyone at pretty much any weight class. We're getting off-topic a bit here so I'll rein it in. Feel free to let us all know what the answers to the above questions are and how it relates to our discussion.
Goodridge beat Ze Pedro on paper, but you and I both know that was some of the cheapest garbage in the brief history of MMA he pulled on Otavio. Using your feet to crush your opponent's pills from the guard? Props for creativity, but Gary was very fortunate to leave Brazil breathing. Those fans were screamin' for blood. Anyways, he should have been DQ'd and Pedro should have won but the fact that he was going back and forth in a war with that incredibly raw version of Goodridge indicates to me that he was just not that good a fighter. Therefore a win over him did little to advance Kerr's standing in MMA, which quite a few of us saw back in the day.
Hadn't watched GSP/Hughes in a couple years so I just hit up Fightpass and I can agree that Hughes won that round before the armbar but it was most certainly not a poor performance from GSP either. He was very young and green on the biggest stage of his life and kept up with the consensus WW GOAT pretty well... till he didn't. Seems like you have a problem with GSP; care to elaborate?
Regardless, I have responded repeatedly to the main crux of your argument that Fujita is MMA's true Buster Douglas; namely, that Kerr/Fujita was in no way, shape or form a big or important enough fight to begin with to even compare. That honour belongs to GSP/Serra in my eyes. The reasoning behind all of this is in my posts before. Feel free to respond to the arguments I've clearly made before you repeat yourself again and again about hindsight, historical perspective, etc. I've already addressed all of it in my previous post. Let's see if we can stay on topic, here.
And there are 6 paragraphs here counting this one.
1- You´ve gottah present it better:
1 paragraph = 1 idea, otherwise it´s not readable.
2- You claim Gono´s got a prob. with No Rush, but...objectively... look at your technical assessment of the Hughes fight... You literally overrated all the technical sequences in No Rush´s favour...
3- Your 1st narrative was that he was on a "tear" at that time... Now you´re sayin´that "He was very young and green"... That´s a pretty decent qualitative evolution in your narrative, wont you agree?
4- "I already stated I don't know what GSP's gameplan was before the BJ fight and I don't remember what GSP's corner instructed him to do. It also has very little to do with the discussion at hand."
> See the irony... You´re his [obvious] fan, you claim Gono´s a hater, but...You cant even elaborate on such an essential topic..Worse: you´re clueless about it but still consider it a moot point...
5- THE Pedro: again, you can reassess any opponent in any fighter´s résumé & downgrade it at will.
I could play this game with No Rush´s run in UCC, for instance, but Gono doesnt play this game.
4th QUESTION: since you claim that THE Pedro was a 'jobber', can you please give me an assessment of his skill set (2 lines)?
Was hardcore, stopped watchin´when my favz slowly retired (last one> B-Hop)
Anyway, do acknowledge that this 'in hindsight' game you´re playin´with Kerr´s legacy is not somethin´new: people have been doin´the same about Tyson´s....
This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
