Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 30] - MMA´s Buster Douglas...
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helax, mate... Mean Gono was playin´ya...
Anyway, the way I see it, your points are irrelevant since they are in hindsight.
But you´re technically right, tho... Those 2 upsets cant realistically be considered "in the same galaxy":
an upset a la Buster Douglas implies an aura of invicibility... at the time (obviously not in hindsight: Kerr could have gone 200-0 or 0-200 after this, it doesnt matter).
Kerr had it, No Rush, no. It´s simple as that.
Now, you need to acknowledge the context at that time, especially from the Vale Tudo scene in 1997-1999,
to understand the magnitude of that upset.
It iz what it iz.
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Kerr got wasted by Igor two fights earlier............aura of invincibility? Lay and praying Enson? Come on man...
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That´s what Im talkin´about, mate. You need some legit knowledge about the context.
> vs Igor & Enson : already assessed in the OP.
> Context 1 : ADCC :
The Fujita fight was in : May 1, 2000
ADCC 1999
99 kg+: 1st Place
ADCC 2000 : March 1
99 kg+: 1st Place
Openweight: 1st Place
> Context 2 : Vale Tudo Scene [1997-1999]
The New Full Contact:
Q: Mark Kerr is a beating machine. In a no time-limit match, would that pay off?
HENZO: "You have to start a match agressively. I think the difference in weight is so big because they are using steroids. It took me 6 or 7 years to get heavier. I was 67kg and now I'm 82 kg. They get heavier than that in a month."
Q: Mark Kerr is a beating machine. In a no time-limit match, would that pay off?
HENZO: "You have to start a match agressively. I think the difference in weight is so big because they are using steroids. It took me 6 or 7 years to get heavier. I was 67kg and now I'm 82 kg. They get heavier than that in a month."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: So do you mean fighters like Maurice Smith and Mark Kerr aren't on the same levels as the fighters here in Japan?
HICKSON:"Exactly. When I watch them fight, I see so many openings that even my son could capitalize on. I'm not saying they are bad fighters, just that I see many holes in them."
Q: How would you see a match with Mark Kerr going?
HICKSON: "Kerr is a big strong guy with a good base. I would imagine him tiring out and giving me an opening."
Q: So do you mean fighters like Maurice Smith and Mark Kerr aren't on the same levels as the fighters here in Japan?
HICKSON:"Exactly. When I watch them fight, I see so many openings that even my son could capitalize on. I'm not saying they are bad fighters, just that I see many holes in them."
Q: How would you see a match with Mark Kerr going?
HICKSON: "Kerr is a big strong guy with a good base. I would imagine him tiring out and giving me an opening."
FreeFight magazine:
Q: Why fight Takada again and not a top fighter like Koshaka, Sato, or even an American like Kerr?
HICKSON:"I feel Takada is a warrior and deserves the chance to try and redeem himself."
Q: Who do you feel are the best fighters today?
HICKSON:"I feel Kerr and Erickson are very strong and that Sato and Sperry have excellent technique. But the biggest challenger would have to be Erickson."
Q: What do you say to the people who criticize you and say that you only fight "weak" opponents and are dodging the top fighters like Kerr?
HICKSON: "I tell them, if somebody wants to fight me that bad then come to my school."
Q: But you were offered to take Royce's place in the Pride event and declined. Why?
HICKSON: "I never take a fight on 1 month notice. If they want me to fight Kerr, then give me three months in advance."
Q: Why fight Takada again and not a top fighter like Koshaka, Sato, or even an American like Kerr?
HICKSON:"I feel Takada is a warrior and deserves the chance to try and redeem himself."
Q: Who do you feel are the best fighters today?
HICKSON:"I feel Kerr and Erickson are very strong and that Sato and Sperry have excellent technique. But the biggest challenger would have to be Erickson."
Q: What do you say to the people who criticize you and say that you only fight "weak" opponents and are dodging the top fighters like Kerr?
HICKSON: "I tell them, if somebody wants to fight me that bad then come to my school."
Q: But you were offered to take Royce's place in the Pride event and declined. Why?
HICKSON: "I never take a fight on 1 month notice. If they want me to fight Kerr, then give me three months in advance."
Full Contact Fighter:
Q: A recent back injury, forced you to cancel an upcoming fight with Mark Kerr in the Japanese Pride-2 event, how did you hurt your back?
HOYCE:"That, I don't know. I woke up, my hand was numb, next day the whole arm was numb, the whole leg was numb, two weeks without doing anything, the other leg got numb, the other foot got numb. The doctor said it could be jump-rope, could be running, could be training, could be lifting weights."
Q: Who are the fighters that you'd be most interested in fighting?
HOYCE: "Mark Kerr, cause I was scheduled to fight him. So, I would like to come back and fight him."
Q: What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Royce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Royce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
Q: A recent back injury, forced you to cancel an upcoming fight with Mark Kerr in the Japanese Pride-2 event, how did you hurt your back?
HOYCE:"That, I don't know. I woke up, my hand was numb, next day the whole arm was numb, the whole leg was numb, two weeks without doing anything, the other leg got numb, the other foot got numb. The doctor said it could be jump-rope, could be running, could be training, could be lifting weights."
Q: Who are the fighters that you'd be most interested in fighting?
HOYCE: "Mark Kerr, cause I was scheduled to fight him. So, I would like to come back and fight him."
Q: What's the difference with that offer and the deal you had for the Pride show with Kerr? You were gonna have a time limit there.
HOYCE: "No time limit with Kerr. There was no time limit. If there's a time limit, I won't fight. You see, so and they're bigger than, and they're walking in 260 pounds, "Yeah, I draw with Royce!" And, milk doesn't get you that big..to look at that body..I drink a lot of milk and I don't get that big. And, in the end they're like "Yeah, Royce is no good because he couldn't beat the guy."..Look at my size, and look at his size. Now leave with no time limit, if you put 5 hours, he will hold on for 5 hours. They know they cannot beat me. They sleep at night time, they sit down in bed and think "How can I beat that skinny guy." And, they gonna stay up all night long thinking about it and they can't. So, that's why they want to fight with the time limit. With no time, then I'll get them tired, we'll equal the scale of the power, then I'll catch him. That is technique."
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Imagine winning ADCC and not being able to finish a smaller, literal pure striker in Igor, while maintaining top control for 80% of the fight. LOL, invincible. Stop exaggerating.
Also, what's with the Gracie quotes? They're literally all liars and complete bullshit artists. Are you showing these to indicate them dodging Kerr? They dodged all kinds of guys, that's the Gracie way.
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> Context vs Igor:
Back then, 2 dudes were considered top 2 P4P: Kerr & Igor
Igor was not a mere 'pure' striker, that´s kindah inaccurate.
He also began to train sambo under Alexander Fedorov right after his submission loss to sambist Andrei Besedin (3rd fight @ UCMAL: Warrior's Honour 1).
He also had a decent defensive guard & sprawl.
QUESTION: can you name all the elite grapplers who tried to do what you said [finish him on the ground], b4 his Pride run?
[extension: Russian NHB Scene]
> Context Vale Tudo Scene:
hmmm...nah... Again...That´s why I said you really need to have legit knowledge about the context: this is what
will truly give you the right historical pespective.
You understood that those quotes were about the Gracies? It´s actually the complete opposite, mate.
Those quotes are about the Vale Tudo Magazines (from Japan, Brazil, USA) which had only ONE name (actually 2: Big Cat too) on their lips when they would inquire about potential match-ups with top fighters
[Obs: Igor was the 3rd one, but was more hyped by 'hardcore' analysts or promoters like Frederico Lapenda (WVC CEO)]
In short, Kerr was considered the main target for the BJJ Community, for instance.
Since when? Since the Gurgel fight in Brazil [see OP & see the Hugo Duarte situation too]
Overall, all these contexts built Kerr´s reputation [fear factor, somethin´No Rush didnt have at the Serra fight, for instance].
It iz what it iz.
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I indicated the quotes came FROM the Gracies mate, keep up. Not about them.
Split more hairs about Igor's ground game. Then compare it to the guys Kerr ran over at ADCC. Come on....
I'm well aware of both Kerr and Igor's reputations and standings during their careers in MMA.
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> Forget about what them Gracies said, pay only attention to the questions.
> Igor´s ground game:
Splittin´hair?
You said that he was a 'pure striker'. Please confirm this stance or deny it.
Meanwhile, I did ask you a question in my previous post.
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Igor's primary skillset was his standup game, let's leave it at that.
Question? Early grapplers for Igor....oh I can't even recall. Lima early, Carvalho late. Can you show me some examples of guys with Kerr's grappling credentials that had top control on Igor for 8-10 minutes?
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> Igor´s skill set:
You said "primary" ... well, you´re technically back-pedallin´, mate, wont you agree?
You 1st said "literal pure striker".
That´s what I call a decent qualitative evolution in your assessment.
It iz what it iz.
> Russian & Brazilian Vale Tudo Scenes:
He fought these grapplers, for instance:
Leonardo Castello Branco
Nick Nutter
Mikhail Avetisyan
Carlos Barreto
Valery Pliev
John Dixson
Igor Akhmedov
Vasily Kudin
Sergei Bondarovich
Edson Carvalho
Question> Can you tell me their background?
> Your question:
"Can you show me some examples of guys with Kerr's grappling credentials"
... is a nonsense, mate.
Igor´s pre-Pride run was between 1995 & 1999. ADCC started in 1998...
It took some time b4 them Eastern European potential competitors started to get interested in it.
But... for instance... these 2 fighters:
- Nick Nutter
... spent much more time than Kerr on top of Igor, & couldnt finish him.
This other one:
- Valery Pliev
... had him in a pretty vulnerable position for a "literal pure striker", as you said, but couldnt finish the heel hook.
This other one:
- Leonardo Castello Branco
... did win the IBJJF World Championship.
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Great thread. A real history lesson.
I prefer Georges “what’s the Rush?” St-Pierre. But you really got a good chuckle out of me.
I prefer Georges “what’s the Rush?” St-Pierre. But you really got a good chuckle out of me.
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Another good thread from Gono, even if the numerous jabs at mah boy GSP gave me severe PTSD 
Mark Kerr vs the Gracie clan was definitely a very interesting match-up, while waiting for these fights to materialize, mangaka Tetsuya Saruwatari even wrote/drew his own version of what these bouts would look like, which was awesome:
Now go read the rest of the fight on Kissmanga or something, I ain't posting the whole thing
Mark Kerr vs the Gracie clan was definitely a very interesting match-up, while waiting for these fights to materialize, mangaka Tetsuya Saruwatari even wrote/drew his own version of what these bouts would look like, which was awesome:
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Fyodor and St Pierre together Tabaranak de Caliss
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