Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 26] - Dat Groovy Paradox...

hmmm... It worked coz Mariano has a weak guard, doesnt know how to use his [long] legs.
With such a reach advantage and those legs, he had the tools to deny an effective GNP.

Against a more 'legit' guard, and being undersized @ LW, Groovy should work on his transitions on the ground, he has the athletism and dexterity to become more of a threat on the ground.
You're making it out like a shorter guy has no chance to land gnp against a taller guy. I guess I'm going to need to ask for some video examples of someone using their height or long legs from the bottom guard to nullify the shorter top guy. I looked around for a bit (& actually did some major Old school reminiscing while searching) but I didn't really see anyone doing this to any sort of dominating effect. Tying up the hands is the main thing. Extending the torso can help too, but it's not some be all end all technique where a taller guy has a crazy advantage.

You make a perfectly legit point that Marcos has a weak guard... but after watching it a few more timez... it's not as bad as I thought after the first live viewing. I would caveat to say that even top end fighters get hit while they have guard. Tito Ortiz was very good at hitting people while in their guard.

Couture was a master at GnP from within the guard... & if you look at his fight against Tim Silvia... he beat the sh*t out of him from right in tall ass Tim Silvia's guard. I knew Groovy's technique looked familiar vs Marcos... & I went back & looked at Silvia vs. Couture... & rounds 2 & 4, but specifically round 4... about a minute in... you see Couture sit on his ankles (posturing up) and he is at the full length of Silvia's stretched out torso... (just like Groovy was vs. Marcos was about 2:15 left in the round) & Couture was lighting him teh fook up just like Groovy was from the same position. Both bottom guys on their backs were doing their best to fight off & tie them up... but neither were successful. Even the tripod position where Groovy & Couture stand up/bent over from within the guard was copied by groovy & was very effective against their opponents. it wouldn't surprise me if Groovy studied this particular fight... or at least the technique.

So in one example you see this in a fight between 2 champions & then in Groovy vs Marcus you see the same thing.

I'm just saying that this stuff doesn't just exist at lower levels.

Lando was happy striking from the guard... & it was very successful. You can see it clear as day watching the video that is where he wanted to be atm & wasn't even trying to pass for a while.

Also, if you watch this fight a few times... you start seeing more of what Marcos was doing & you start realizing that he's not the absolute novice everyone is making him out to be. Don't get me wrong... he's still young in it, but he was doing a lot of stuff that show he has knowledge & training. Such as when groovy was in half guard, he kept that leg tied up with his legs while he shrimped away to create space... that limited Groovy's options. At one point he bucked & made space & used that space to get full guard. All that stuff is not something you know how to do without having some skill & training... especially vs a brown belt.

In the end... Marcos made a move for a submission that ended up in him getting caught... but the same sort of thing happens with top contenders as well. Marcos kept the guard until he went for a submission & Lando used the submission attempt to get out of the guard & that's when Marcos f*cked up & good on Groovy to capitalize on the scramble & get that sub.

So to loop back around to what I was saying about Groovy not passing the guard... watch it again. See how he used that position (couture style) to land some gnp... he patiently waited until that gnp opened up an opportunity, & as soon as the opportunity presented itself, Lando's there & capitolizez. So who'z to say that passing the guard earlier would've been better?
 
You're making it out like a shorter guy has no chance to land gnp against a taller guy. I guess I'm going to need to ask for some video examples of someone using their height or long legs from the bottom guard to nullify the shorter top guy. I looked around for a bit (& actually did some major Old school reminiscing while searching) but I didn't really see anyone doing this to any sort of dominating effect. Tying up the hands is the main thing. Extending the torso can help too, but it's not some be all end all technique where a taller guy has a crazy advantage.

You make a perfectly legit point that Marcos has a weak guard... but after watching it a few more timez... it's not as bad as I thought after the first live viewing. I would caveat to say that even top end fighters get hit while they have guard. Tito Ortiz was very good at hitting people while in their guard.

Couture was a master at GnP from within the guard... & if you look at his fight against Tim Silvia... he beat the sh*t out of him from right in tall ass Tim Silvia's guard. I knew Groovy's technique looked familiar vs Marcos... & I went back & looked at Silvia vs. Couture... & rounds 2 & 4, but specifically round 4... about a minute in... you see Couture sit on his ankles (posturing up) and he is at the full length of Silvia's stretched out torso... (just like Groovy was vs. Marcos was about 2:15 left in the round) & Couture was lighting him teh fook up just like Groovy was from the same position. Both bottom guys on their backs were doing their best to fight off & tie them up... but neither were successful. Even the tripod position where Groovy & Couture stand up/bent over from within the guard was copied by groovy & was very effective against their opponents. it wouldn't surprise me if Groovy studied this particular fight... or at least the technique. So in one example you see this in a fight between 2 champions & then in Groovy vs Marcus you see the same thing.

I'm just saying that this stuff doesn't just exist at lower levels.

Lando was happy striking from the guard... & it was very successful. You can see it clear as day watching the video that is where he wanted to be atm & wasn't even trying to pass for a while.

Also, if you watch this fight a few times... you start seeing more of what Marcos was doing & you start realizing that he's not the absolute novice everyone is making him out to be. Don't get me wrong... he's still young in it, but he was doing a lot of stuff that show he has knowledge & training. Such as when groovy was in half guard, he kept that leg tied up with his legs while he shrimped away to create space... that limited Groovy's options. At one point he bucked & made space & used that space to get full guard. All that stuff is not something you know how to do without having some skill & training... especially vs a brown belt.

In the end... Marcos made a move for a submission that ended up in him getting caught... but the same sort of thing happens with top contenders as well. Marcos kept the guard until he went for a submission & Lando used the submission attempt to get out of the guard & that's when Marcos f*cked up & good on Groovy to capitalize on the scramble & get that sub.

So to loop back around to what I was saying about Groovy not passing the guard... watch it again. See how he used that position (couture style) to land some gnp... he patiently waited until that gnp opened up an opportunity, & as soon as the opportunity presented itself, Lando's there & capitolizez. So who'z to say that passing the guard earlier would've been better?

I was tempted to say :Watch for instance Barretão vs Randleman, long legs vs undersized opponent..but ya´re gonna say that Barretão was indeed on another level when it comes to submission offence from the bottom guard, compared to Randle´s submission defence in the guard.

Ya could perhaps have a look at Spider vs Sakurai, for instance., kindah same configuration here, when it comes to size difference.
Problem here is that Mariano neither tried the butterfly guard to escape (can he, at this stage?), nor tried to control Groovy´s hips by squeezin´ his legs and thus controllin´ Groovy´s posture (and his wrist/head control was insufficient).

In short, Mariano had neither tight defence in the guard, nor a clear will/posture [skill] to reverse Groovy offensively.
He lacked discipline defensively, and is realistically not ready for such technical transitions offensively from the bottom.
 
I was tempted to say :Watch for instance Barretão vs Randleman, long legs vs undersized opponent..but ya´re gonna say that Barretão was indeed on another level when it comes to submission offence from the bottom guard, compared to Randle´s submission defence in the guard.

Ya could perhaps have a look at Spider vs Sakurai, for instance., kindah same configuration here, when it comes to size difference.
Problem here is that Mariano neither tried the butterfly guard to escape (can he, at this stage?), nor tried to control Groovy´s hips by squeezin´ his legs and thus controllin´ Groovy´s posture (and his wrist/head control was insufficient).

In short, Mariano had neither tight defence in the guard, nor a clear will/posture [skill] to reverse Groovy offensively.
He lacked discipline defensively, and is realistically not ready for such technical transitions offensively from the bottom.
I definitely agree that Marcos is lower on the belt level & it shows... but I've heard a lot of exaggerating about his skills being worse than they are. He's done some training & showed some fundamentals.

I think the main thing you were talking about using his size is like you were saying (& Dom commented on as well during the broadcast) is that he could've made more space with a butterfly guard or even just putting his foot on his waste & kicking him off. Your opponent posturing up like that makes that kind of stuff a lot easier to get since they're creating the space for you to put your legs into the mix... but Marcos didn't even try it. I think that's the main gripe there.

Regarding your examples: The most important thing in the Barreto fight is right at the time stamp of this video & about 5 seconds thereafter.



I'm being funny there... but the part you're talking about is at the end of the fight



....he twisted to his side & used his bent knee & leg between them to create space... & that could be considered "fighting tall"? I would just say that I don't think it's necessary to be taller to do that... but a good grappler would've pushed the foot down & passed to side control when they put their knee in between them like that. Randleman actually did it but then he dove right into the middle instead. The rest of the time on top in this fight... (which was a lot)... Randleman just layed on him like a lump of clay & Barreta the Tall Guy on the bottom didn't do much more despite his massive height advantage.

Silva & Sakurai wasn't so much what Anderson did as much as Sakurai being terrible at GNP. I mean his idea of top control is just lay & pray. he lifts his head every 30 seconds or so to throw a punch.



In closing... I don't think your comment here is accurate:
With such a reach advantage and those legs, he had the tools to deny an effective GNP.
Being taller than your opponent does not make you able to "deny an effective GnP." I think it might could be used for some advantage with some techniques, but it's definitely not the major deciding factor you eluded to here.




fKGnLwH.gif


Reported... For not backing your point with time stamped videos like I did.
 
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I definitely agree that he's lower on the belt level & it shows... but I've heard a lot of exaggerating about his skills being worse than they are. He's done some training & showed some fundamentals.

I think the main thing you were talking about using his size is like you were saying (& Dom commented on as well during the broadcast) is that he could've made more space with a butterfly guard or even just putting his foot on his waste & kicking him off. Your opponent posturing up like that makes that kind of stuff a lot easier to get since they're creating the space for you to put your legs into the mix... but Marcos didn't even try it. I think that's the main gripe there.

Regarding your examples: The most important thing in the Barreto fight is right at the time stamp of this video & about 5 seconds thereafter.



I'm being funny there... but the part you're talking about is at the end of the fight



....he twisted & used his bent knee & leg between them to create space... & that could be considered "fighting tall"... I would just say that I don't think it's necessary to be taller for that to be effective... but a good grappler could've passed to side control when they put their knee in between them. Never heard of an "inverted butterfly guard" ya know. The rest of the time that guy just layed on him like a lump of clay & the guy on the bottom didn't do much more dispite his massive height advantage.

Silva & Sakurai wasn't so much what Anderson did as much as Sakurai being terrible at GNP. I mean his idea of top control is just lay & pray. he lifts his head every 30 seconds or so to throw a punch.



In closing... I don't think your comment here is accurate:

Being taller than your opponent does not make you able to "deny an effective GnP." I think it might could be used for some advantage with some techniques, but it's definitely not the major deciding factor you talked about here.




fKGnLwH.gif


Reported... For not backing your point with time stamped videos like I did.


Yeah, didnt time stamp the Barretão vs Randle fight coz Randle had a problematic [kindah unique too] posture in the guard...
He would stay much 2 low in the guard, head basically on his opponent´s belly, and would eat some unnecessary elbows or punches from there, without even reactin´sometimes.....(consequently, his punches would come from 2 far away too...)
Then, because of his suspect cardio, he would more often than not, stay quite inactive in the guard, leadin´ to stand-ups, where he would have to spend more energy to get the TD...
But, wrong posture or not, Barretão was legit good at usin´ his legs/reach in the guard.

This case was kindah too "unique" to be considered here, realistically...

Mariano did improve, if ya compare this fight with the Bisão/Gardenal ones for instance: his striking [especially the kicks] got better, but he still has a problematic TDD, and I´ve already talked about his defensive guard.

About Spider vs Mach, compared to Mariano, Spider had a tighter defensive guard, and a disciplined defensive posture: more wrist/head control than Mariano, more 'dedication' to his closed guard.
Against an undersized opponent, the reach advantage can be decisive in the guard, especially if ya stay disciplined and secure the closed guard.
The difference here is that Mariano still doesnt have a genuine overall understanding of the defensive guard imo, his technical [defensive] sequences are disconnected.


You´ll report nuthin!...

freezze.gif
 
Against an undersized opponent, the reach advantage can be decisive in the guard, especially if ya stay disciplined and secure the closed guard.
I'm not sure this is what you're meaning to say. Tim Silvia had a closed guard & torso stretched out... & Couture reached up & hit him hard in the face over & over. That's a huge size variance & it made no difference.

Mariano had the closed guard with torso straightened out several times while Groovy was teeing off. I don't think the advantage you're describing exists. There may be small things here & there that being taller helps in grappling... but it's not something that's going to "deny effective GnP" just because you're taller.

My purpose wasn't to call you out on that... I was legit curious. I'm rather tall myself & have trained BJJ but never ran across such a thing. I'm kind of an ace at putting my hooks in while on someone's back & flattening them out. I've always thought that my height really helped with the leverage on that. Arm in triangles are obviously much easier to get... though you gotta be sure & hold the head because there might be too much space in there that allows them to slip out if I don't have it just right. (ie... being taller makes it easier to get... but being too tall makes your lock less tight.) I've never experienced nor heard anyone talk about it being an effective tool for nullifying GnP from your back though.

That's why I think you probably didn't mean to say it like that. I think your point was that he should've taken advantage of the space he was given when Groovy postured up to keep Groovy away from him & help nullify that GnP or straight up just kick him off.
 
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I'm not sure this is what you're meaning to say. Tim Silvia had a closed guard & torso stretched out... & Couture reached up & hit him hard in the face over & over. That's a huge size variance & it made no difference.

Mariano had the closed guard with torso straightened out several times while Groovy was teeing off. I don't think the advantage you're describing exists. There may be small things here & there that being taller helps in grappling... but it's not something that's going to "deny effective GnP" just because you're taller.

My purpose wasn't to call you out on that... I was legit curious. I'm rather tall myself & have trained BJJ but never ran across such a thing. I am kind of an ace at putting my hooks in while on someone's back & flattening them out. I've always thought that my height really helped with the leverage on that... & arm in triangles are obviously much easier to get... though you gotta be sure & hold the head because there might be too much space in there that allows them to slip out if I don't have it just right. I've never experienced nor heard anyone talk about it being an effective tool for nullifying GnP though.

That's why I think you probably didn't mean to say it like that. I think your point was that he should've taken advantage of the space he was given when Groovy postured up to keep Groovy away from him & help nullify that GnP or straight up just kick him off.
His defensive posture was disconnected IIRC, watch again and you´ll see that his closed guard lacked 'discipline', as he would quickly give up while failin´ to control Groovy´s wrists or head.
Groovy got much space and could easily nullify the reach disadvantage he had.
 
His defensive posture was disconnected IIRC, watch again and you´ll see that his closed guard lacked 'discipline', as he would quickly give up while failin´ to control Groovy´s wrists or head.
Groovy got much space and could easily nullify the reach disadvantage he had.
Your talking about wrist & head control. That has little to do with height.

the difference in height between the 2 is 4"... that advantage pretty much goes out the window when you're on your back bro. We can agree to disagree.... but you gotta at least admit that 4" of height difference in no way will "deny effective GnP."

What denies GnP is all the other stuff with the wrist & head control... & where your legs are... & positioning.... but shorter people can achieve the same thing. I mean if you're talking about a midget vs a basketball player then you might have a point... but a 4" height difference will make very little if no difference while fighting off your back.
 
Your talking about wrist & head control. That has little to do with height.

the difference in height between the 2 is 4"... that advantage pretty much goes out the window when you're on your back bro. We can agree to disagree.... but you gotta at least admit that 4" of height difference in no way will "deny effective GnP."

What denies GnP is all the other stuff with the wrist & head control... & where your legs are... & positioning.... but shorter people can achieve the same thing. I mean if you're talking about a midget vs a basketball player then you might have a point... but a 4" height difference will make very little if no difference while fighting off your back.
Ive actually been talkin´about the disconnection in Mariano´s defensive guard since the very beginnin´,mate...
 
Ive actually been talkin´about the disconnection in Mariano´s defensive guard since the very beginnin´,mate...

You said in effect that "reach & leg length are better tools for denying GnP"
With such a reach advantage and those legs, he had the tools to deny an effective GNP.
my point has been that someone with less reach & shorter legs will be just as effective & that the 4" height difference between the 2 is insignificant when fighting off your back. (If it does help, it is very minor)

It doesn't matter though bro... we're not talking about the same thing & I'm getting sleepy. We're all good. It's like I said 4 or 5 posts ago... I don't think you meant to say that height makes such a difference.
 
You said in effect that "reach & leg length are better tools for denying GnP"

my point has been that someone with less reach & shorter legs will be just as effective & that the 4" height difference between the 2 is insignificant when fighting off your back. (If it does help, it is very minor)

It doesn't matter though bro... we're not talking about the same thing & I'm getting sleepy. We're all good. It's like I said 4 or 5 posts ago... I don't think you meant to say that height makes such a difference.

It´s indeed more about reach (leg length by extension too), since it can pretty much limit the undersized opponent´s GNP if integrated to other things Mariano failed to secure (that´s why I also talked about the wrist control then, and the disconnection)

Consider for instance the Randleman vs Pete Williams fight (Randle actually had trouble in the guard with all the taller dudes, btw) where Randle was more 'conscious' in the guard (ie tryin´to avoid a 'weird' posture)... He still had problems closin´the distance to the head and inflictin´ some legit GNP, because of Williams´ significant reach advantage and control.
 
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