Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 25] - The Wild, Wild East...

[Myrddin Wild]

> about PEDs: by any chance, do you know Baroni´s narrative about what happened to Pride fighters when they transitioned to UFC?

... for no link

I gotta run but I'll get back to the rest of your post when i can... probably 12 hrs from now or so. (overnight for me.)

 

[gono btw]

... for no link

I gotta run but I'll get back to the rest of your post when i can... probably 12 hrs from now or so. (overnight for me.)

Well, Baroni competed in both Org. (more in UFC): he said that Pride´s fighters, when they transitioned to UFC, thought that the testin´ in USA was stricter. Consequently, they decided to stop usin´PEDs...while their UFC colleagues were actually...still usin´...

In time:

Spoiler: Compulsory...

 

[weaselkenievil]

Good thread, enjoyable read so far. Thanks for everyone participating. Lots of knowledge and interesting speculation, good work sherbros.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Well, Baroni competed in both Org. (more in UFC): he said that Pride´s fighters, when they transitioned to UFC, thought that the testin´ in USA was stricter. Consequently, they decided to stop usin´PEDs...while their UFC colleagues were actually...still usin´...

In time:

Spoiler: Compulsory...

View attachment 794633

That would verify that Pride fighters were on PED's & that's just another to add to a very long list.

The point I was bringing up was that yes, the UFC fighters had figured out ways to get around the testing of the commissions... but Pride didn't even have to do that. They could just do whatever they wanted... & were encouraged too do so.

Enson Inoue told Rogan that Pride contracts even spelled out that they would not test.

> About Rampage/Sonnen & interviews: I think that what they say durin´interviews should be put into perspective, they often try to manipulate to create somethin´.

but that doesn't "completely" dismiss what they said either though. A lot of what they say in interviews is 100% truth as well. So that would have to be a part of the perspective you speak of putting their words into.

Fair enough... they both talk shit sometimes... but there's a difference between talking shit & speaking about hard truths. What Sonnen was saying wasn't a part of the Wes Lin Gangster schtick. He was being serious. Whether right or wrong, I feel like he believed what he was saying... & him & Hendo were pretty tight, so it's not like we can dismiss him for not being a Pride guy. Rampage's poisoned comments, could go either way, but speculation on whether either was truth or BS can neither be 100% accepted nor 100% dismissed imo.

You seem to want to dismiss both of them 100% based on your speculative pov... & for someone who a lot of people count on to give them information about the OG dayz, I'd like to see you not be so dismissive of something you're speculating about.

> after the 1st ten events, which fights are considered [more or less] controversial:
- Takada vs Tamura
- Tamura vs Yoshida
- Yoshida vs Hoyce 1
- SAKU fights
- Shoji vs Stieblin´
- Matsui vs Pelé
- Gomi vs Azeredo

But the narratives are rather weak.

Good looking out... Do you have decons of these?

One fight I dismissed in the OP: Ogawa vs Big Daddy (Big Daddy confirmed he rejected the offer in his book)... is actually kindah tricky... Some ol´school NHB Analysts were still doubtin´this version back in the day...
This fight would require some serious deconstruction, almost frame by frame...

In time, I think Im gonna have to drop a separate assessment about this specific fight, becaus the 4 answers + what I´ve already written, this is called a ... Decons...

Looking forward to it. Please call me in when you post it.

 

[gono btw]

That would verify that Pride fighters were on PED's & that's just another to add to a very long list.

The point I was bringing up was that yes, the UFC fighters had figured out ways to get around the testing of the commissions... but Pride didn't even have to do that. They could just do whatever they wanted... & were encouraged too do so.

Enson Inoue told Rogan that Pride contracts even spelled out that they would not test.

but that doesn't "completely" dismiss what they said either though. A lot of what they say in interviews is 100% truth as well. So that would have to be a part of the perspective you speak of putting their words into.

Fair enough... they both talk shit sometimes... but there's a difference between talking shit & speaking about hard truths. What Sonnen was saying wasn't a part of the Wes Lin Gangster schtick. He was being serious. Whether right or wrong, I feel like he believed what he was saying... & him & Hendo were pretty tight, so it's not like we can dismiss him for not being a Pride guy. Rampage's poisoned comments, could go either way, but speculation on whether either was truth or BS can neither be 100% accepted nor 100% dismissed imo.

You seem to want to dismiss both of them 100% based on your speculative pov... & for someone who a lot of people count on to give them information about the OG dayz, I'd like to see you not be so dismissive of something you're speculating about.



Good looking out... Do you have decons of these?



Looking forward to it. Please call me in when you post it.

> I mean, there´s no controversy about Pride fighters bein´on PEDs, but Baroni´s narrative kindah disqualifies the myth that their UFC colleagues were any different.
More: no Pride fighters started to use PEDs there.
For instance, Kerr admitted he started to use them in WVC, because he was afraid of the NHB / Vale Tudo world.
That narrative about PEDs bein´encouraged might be a myth too: sayin´they didnt test might also mean that they acknowledged it was a waste of time (all the $ to the events & fighters, not to that cat & mouse game...), as there has always been a technological gap between cheaters & testers especially back then..

Spoiler: PEDs in UFC.

"Steroids were fully ingrained in the culture of the UFC by the time Kerr arrived.

Randy (The Natural) Couture, who debuted in the Octagon one event before Kerr, dismissed UFC’s testing protocol at the time as illegitimate.

“Everyone knew it was a joke,” Couture said. “They basically tossed you a cup and sent you to the bathroom, but I don't know why they even did it. I think it was to cross off a box.”

Kerr said doctors conducting pre-fight medicals ignored obvious warning signs of his steroid use.

"I remember sitting across the table from the doctor, and the doctor looking at my liver enzymes,” Kerr said. “When you do anabolics in high amounts it messes with your liver enzymes. The doctor was looking at me and looking at the liver enzymes and looking at me. He said, 'Do you realize this is eight times the normal amount you're supposed to have?' I said, ‘Yeah,' and that was it. They allowed me to fight."

> I´ll try to assess some of the things Rampage said in interviews [poisoned food / his legit knowledge about Pride], but you really have to read between the lines, he sometimes play it dumb, but he definitely knows what he´s doin´.
On the other side, Sonnen´s bold claims are really gross, so gross that you cant really believe he has legit knowledge on that scene. For instance, Im pretty sure that if you ask him to give specific examples about that ear piece thing, he will have no answer, perhaps only that infamous Rampage claim about his so-called controversial stand-up in his fight against Wand.

> About the potentially controversial fights:

- Takada vs Tamura > weak narrative [Tamura´s reaction after KOin´Takada], doesnt really deserve a Decons
- Tamura vs Yoshida > idem
- Yoshida vs Hoyce 1 > idem [Yoshida & Ref. vs poor Hoyce)

- Shoji vs Stieblin´> kindah tricky, needs a legit understandin´of Pride´s complex Scorin´System [I might drop a Decons about it]
- Matsui vs Pelé > idem

- Gomi vs Azeredo > there might be somethin´controversial there, havent assessed it yet, & should have done it there:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

There were 2 questionable [quick] stand-ups in that fight (really different from what happened in the Wand vs Rampage fight).

- SAKU fights > (SAKU vs Ronin is assessed in the OP)

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

+ SAKU vs Rampage: gonna drop somethin´about it (incl. those 4 answers), was reluctant tbh, but seems people are really serious about this shit.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

> I mean, there´s no controversy about Pride fighters bein´on PEDs, but Baroni´s narrative kindah disqualifies the myth that their UFC colleagues were any different.

"Any different" is contested by what Enson said about how fighters were guaranteed there would be zero testing. The UFC had to play the game & keep their levels in check.

You're really underestimating the difference there if you're saying there's no difference between the 2.

"Steroids were fully ingrained in the culture of the UFC by the time Kerr arrived.

Randy (The Natural) Couture, who debuted in the Octagon one event before Kerr, dismissed UFC’s testing protocol at the time as illegitimate.

“Everyone knew it was a joke,” Couture said. “They basically tossed you a cup and sent you to the bathroom, but I don't know why they even did it. I think it was to cross off a box.”

Kerr said doctors conducting pre-fight medicals ignored obvious warning signs of his steroid use.

"I remember sitting across the table from the doctor, and the doctor looking at my liver enzymes,” Kerr said. “When you do anabolics in high amounts it messes with your liver enzymes. The doctor was looking at me and looking at the liver enzymes and looking at me. He said, 'Do you realize this is eight times the normal amount you're supposed to have?' I said, ‘Yeah,' and that was it. They allowed me to fight."

these are examples from a decade before the Pride accusation... & a very early UFC that was under not only different ownership but undevelopped commissions that didn't know wtf this new thing was that they were working with. I was at Kerr's UFC debut live & very clearly recall they had to do it in Alabama because that was only one of a limited few places they were even capable of putting on these events. By 2007 it was a completely different situation.

Actually, it was way before that... as commissions slowly started coming around... a part of their approval was testing... which was something Pride fighters were guaranteed to not be bothered with. Very big difference there. Yes, UFC athletes still used... Tito's big ass head being a shining recognition of that fact... but they had to be smart & tricky about it.

> I´ll try to assess some of the things Rampage said in interviews [poisoned food / his legit knowledge about Pride], but you really have to read between the lines, he sometimes play it dumb, but he definitely knows what he´s doin´.
On the other side, Sonnen´s bold claims are really gross, so gross that you cant really believe he has legit knowledge on that scene. For instance, Im pretty sure that if you ask him to give specific examples about that ear piece thing, he will have no answer, perhaps only that infamous Rampage claim about his so-called controversial stand-up in his fight against Wand.

Well, the difference is that while I'm saying they might be legit... I'm acknowledging they might not be legit as well. Where-as you're trying to make out like 100% they are not legit. That might seem like a subtle difference but I don't think it is. It's one thing to present your pov that you're speculating on... but trying to make your speculation out to be 100% gospel is not a fair assessment of the data we have we have to work with. You could accurately say you strongly doubt it.... but I feel it's misleading to completely dismiss it. I feel very strongly about that especially given the Yakusa involvement

> About the potentially controversial fights:

- Takada vs Tamura > weak narrative, doesnt really deserve a Decons
- Tamura vs Yoshida > idem
- Yoshida vs Hoyce 1 > idem

- Shoji vs Stieblin´> kindah tricky, needs a legit understandin´of Pride´s complex Scorin´System [I might drop a Decons about it]
- Matsui vs Pelé > idem

- Gomi vs Azeredo > there might be somethin´controversial there, havent assessed it yet, & should have done it there:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

There were 2 questionable [quick] stand-ups in that fight (really different from what happened in the Wand vs Rampage fight).

- SAKU fights > (SAKU vs Ronin is assessed in the OP)

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

+ SAKU vs Rampage: gonna drop somethin´about it (incl. those 4 answers), was reluctant tbh, but seems people are really serious about this shit.

Thank you... I'll review these when I get some time. I gotta get some chorez dun before the weekend!!!

 

[gono btw]

"Any different" is contested by what Enson said about how fighters were guaranteed there would be zero testing. The UFC had to play the game & keep their levels in check.

You're really underestimating the difference there if you're saying there's no difference between the 2.



these are examples from a decade before the Pride accusation... & a very early UFC that was under not only different ownership but undevelopped commissions that didn't know wtf this new thing was that they were working with. I was at Kerr's UFC debut live & very clearly recall they had to do it in Alabama because that was only one of a limited few places they were even capable of putting on these events. By 2007 it was a completely different story situation.



Well, the difference is that while I'm saying they might be legit... I'm acknowledging they might not be legit as well. Where-as you're trying to make out like 100% they are not legit. That might seem like a subtle difference but I don't think it is. It's one thing to present your pov that you're speculating on... but trying to make your speculation out to be 100% gospel is not a fair assessment of the data we have we have to work with. You could accurately say you strongly doubt it.... but I feel it's misleading to completely dismiss it. I feel very strongly about that especially given the Yakusa involvement



Thank you... I'll review these when I get some time. I gotta get some chorez dun before the weekend!!!

> yeah, but Baroni´s narrative disqualifies that dichotomy between a clean UFC & a shamelessly roided Pride.

Question: between Pride´s birth & death, how many UFC fighters were caught usin´PEDs?

> About Sonnen´s legit knowledge: do the test > I dont use social media, but I believe he often does some Q&A with fans.. Ask him about that ear piece thin´, ask him about controversial sequences.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

> yeah, but Baroni´s narrative disqualifies that dichotomy between a clean UFC & a shamelessly roided Pride.

Who's saying the UFC was clean? Not me... so I'm not sure why you'd say that.

You're not getting the point. The UFC was roided too... there's absolutely no doubt about it. However, they did have to keep their levels in check.

It's not the same situation at all between that & an organization that guarantees that you won't be tested like Pride was.

Question: between Pride´s birth & death, how many UFC fighters were caught usin´PEDs?

Great question! I was a super fan the whole time, so I know they had a presence as time went by, but I don't recall exactly when that happened. I tried to look it up but the search engine just kept bringing up modern articles. Perhaps our resident USADA expert @dim_ can help us out with this discussion.

Obviously testing was in effect well before the time of the Pride accusation in 2007 as evidenced by Baroni's account.

> About Sonnen´s legit knowledge: do the test > I dont use social media, but I believe he often does some Q&A with fans.. Ask him about that ear piece thin´, ask him about controversial sequences.

I'm not understanding you here. Do you dispute the fact that Hendo & Sonnen were broz & trained together? Maybe we should get that out of the way first before we get into the idea that 2 people who were bros & trained together would talk about things & share information.

 

[gono btw]

Who's saying the UFC was clean? Not me... so I'm not sure why you'd say that.

You're not getting the point. The UFC was roided too... there's absolutely no doubt about it. However, they did have to keep their levels in check.

It's not the same situation at all between that & an organization that guarantees that you won't be tested like Pride was.


Great question! I was a super fan the whole time, so I know they had a presence as time went by, but I don't recall exactly when that happened. I tried to look it up but the search engine just kept bringing up modern articles. Perhaps our resident USADA expert @dim_ can help us out with this discussion.

Obviously testing was in effect well before the time of the Pride accusation in 2007 as evidenced by Baroni's account.



I'm not understanding you here. Do you dispute the fact that Hendo & Sonnen were broz & trained together? Maybe we should get that out of the way first before we get into the idea that 2 people who were bros & trained together would talk about things & share information.

Well, Baroni´s narrative disqualifies it, to say the least. So, it realistically becomes a moot point.

Sure, but Hendo was there, Sonnen, not really. I mean, it´s a very simple test: ask him about his narrative related to that ear piece thin´, ask him to give specific examples. This is the difference between 2nd hand knowledge & someone who really knows what he´s talkin´about.

Another example: the other day, BJM, a legit OG, used the 4-7-1 angle [Takase] to defend a narrative related to Spider.
Ask yourself: how many of those fights did he really watch?

 

[Myrddin Wild]

Well, Baroni´s narrative disqualifies it, to say the least. So, it realistically becomes a moot point.

It's weird that you don't see that Baroni's pov actually supports the fact that it was known the UFC athletes were being tested.

Now there was some confusion on the part of Pride fighters as to how the UFC athletes were getting around the testing they were exposed too... & so according to Baroni, Pride fighters took it to the extreme & got completely off the stuff... but 100% Baroni's testimony shines a light on the fact that it was well known the UFC was testing.

Sonnen, not really. I mean, it´s a very simple test: ask him about his narrative related to that ear piece thin´, ask him to give specific examples. This is the difference between 2nd hand knowledge & someone who really knows what he´s talkin´about.

I've been acknowledging the whole time that we can't 100% accept Sonnen's testimony. What you're not doing is budging from your 100% that's it's not true. You're declaring based on speculation & your personal pov that it's 100% a lie... & that's just not realistic. It very well could or couldn't be true.

What is an "earpiece thin"?

Another example: the other day, BJM, a legit OG, used the 4-7-1 angle [Takase] to defend a narrative related to Spider.
Ask yourself: how many of those fights did he really watch?

You're using too many shortcuts in this & I don't know who BJM is or what his narrative is.

 

[gono btw]

It's weird that you don't see that Baroni's pov actually supports the fact that it was known the UFC athletes were being tested.

Now there was some confusion on the part of Pride fighters as to how the UFC athletes were getting around the testing they were exposed too... & so according to Baroni, Pride fighters took it to the extreme & got completely off the stuff... but 100% Baroni's testimony shines a light on the fact that it was well known the UFC was testing.



I've been acknowledging the whole time that we can't 100% accept Sonnen's testimony. What you're not doing is budging from your 100% that's it's not true. You're declaring based on speculation & your personal pov that it's 100% a lie... & that's just not realistic. It very well could or couldn't be true.

What is an "earpiece thin"?



You're using too many shortcuts in this & I don't know who BJM is or what his narrative is.

> What Baroni´s basically sayin´: UFC´s testin´was pure smoke screen.
I asked you how many were busted. In comparison, durin´the 1990s, in the Tour de France, some 10 competitors would be busted (out of 120 aprox.) each year, and this number was considered a joke (all of them were on EPO).
Bear in mind that, because of the outrage, the French Gvt decided to step in & be in charge of that 'cat & mouse' game...
Anyway, that PEDs debate is rather off-topic here, & is not really a high level one.
Everybody agrees that it was a level playin´field. Where´s the controversy?

> Well, that´s what Im askin´: a proof of his legit knowledge: ask him to give specific examples of that corruption. Right now, his narrative is: since the Ref. was usin´ an ear piece, its a proof that Pride was corrupted, those fights were fixed.
Since he keeps talkin´ about Pride´s Refs usin´ ear piece (reminder: in US, at the time, Strikeforce & SuperBrawl were usin´them too...), ask him which technical sequences are indeed controversial
Let´s check how legit his knowledge is.

Spoiler: Ear piece in US MMA

> BJM = Big John Mc.

 

[Frank Dracman]

 

[KillerIsBack V2]

Your going back to Bubbuns standard argument there for me, you ask Anderson Silva what kind of level he's at before his next match and what is he going to say? "I'm old and declined" or "I feel I'm at my best ever"? clearly the former both to hype the match and to get himself hyped up.

Overplaying evolution and underplaying fighters decline just works for everyone marketing wise, everyone wants to have the best product today rather than harking back to the past. Is a member of a MMA gym going to say "were good but the way Fedor was training in the 00's was on another level"? of course he isn't.

That sounds nothing like anderson. He’d just completely ignore the question and thank god and the audience and ramble on in shitty english

 

[Myrddin Wild]

> What Baroni´s basically sayin´: UFC´s testin´was pure smoke screen.
I asked you how many were busted. In comparison, durin´the 1990s, in the Tour de France, some 10 competitors would be busted (out of 120 aprox.) each year, and this number was considered a joke (all of them were on EPO).
Bear in mind that, because of the outrage, the French Gvt decided to step in & be in charge of that 'cat & mouse' game...
Anyway, that PEDs debate is rather off-topic here, & is not really a high level one.
Everybody agrees that it was a level playin´field. Where´s the controversy?

> Well, that´s what Im askin´: a proof of his legit knowledge: ask him to give specific examples of that corruption. Right now, his narrative is: since the Ref. was usin´ an ear piece, its a proof that Pride was corrupted, those fights were fixed.
Since he keeps talkin´ about Pride´s Refs usin´ ear piece (reminder: in US, at the time, Strikeforce & SuperBrawl were usin´them too...), ask him which technical sequences are indeed controversial
Let´s check how legit his knowledge is.

Spoiler: Ear piece in US MMA

View attachment 794820View attachment 794826 View attachment 794821 View attachment 794822 View attachment 794823 View attachment 794824 View attachment 794825

> BJM = Big John Mc.

I don't agree that Baroni's point was that the UFC testing was a smoke screen... I feel like his point was that the Pride guys thought it was more than it was. I am however just going by your account of what he said... so would you please link me to what he said.

Baroni's testimony is an interesting addition to the convo, but the essence of the convo is regarding whether or not the UFC actually did test more during that time... & if there were consequences... & we do know that while Pride contracts were contractually obligated not to test... the UFC was testing... & so that is a substancial difference for the people lower on the roster... however I'm sure the people at the top knew how to skate the system... & so that leads us to the burden of proof being whether or not people were getting busted.

I've been super busy & the info about who got busted in the UFC during that time isn't easily available as my search result keep getting hijacked by current events... but I'll just leave it at that for the moment until I can get more time to investigate it further.

Whatever the result is though... we do know the UFC was testing & Pride was not... but I'll give your pov a fair shake & try to find something when I get some time about how many people got busted.

Our Convo on Sonnen's comments has hit a rock & a hard place. I'm willing to say it's not 100% but you're trying to use speculation to say that it's 100% not true. Just the fact that you're using speculation should imo not be a 100% valuation... but if the logic you've supplied me so far is all you got, then we'll just have to agree to disagree because I haven't heard any evidence 100% that says Sonnen was lying about what he thought he believed.

That said, you've changed my thinking about Pride being fixed a lot. They duped me back in the day with the single digit events & I guess I just never got over it. It's a fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me, kind of thing. That said it's all history now & so I can see that there's a big possibility that they didn't want to risk having fixed fights & so I can weigh that along side of the fact that the org was run by the Yakusa. So it's all still shady & not 100% in either direction by my pov.

I'm still not taking any credit away from Pride fighters for their top competition wins, but I'm also not giving them "extra credit" for the length of Fedor's run due to the many things we've talked about. It's so complicated that I'm not sure how you can be 100% that nothing was fixed. At least give me a 99%... lol....

 

[gono btw]

I don't agree that Baroni's point was that the UFC testing was a smoke screen... I feel like his point was that the Pride guys thought it was more than it was. I am however just going by your account of what he said... so would you please link me to what he said.

Baroni's testimony is an interesting addition to the convo, but the essence of the convo is regarding whether or not the UFC actually did test more during that time... & if there were consequences... & we do know that while Pride contracts were contractually obligated not to test... the UFC was testing... & so that is a substancial difference for the people lower on the roster... however I'm sure the people at the top knew how to skate the system... & so that leads us to the burden of proof being whether or not people were getting busted.

I've been super busy & the info about who got busted in the UFC during that time isn't easily available as my search result keep getting hijacked by current events... but I'll just leave it at that for the moment until I can get more time to investigate it further.

Whatever the result is though... we do know the UFC was testing & Pride was not... but I'll give your pov a fair shake & try to find something when I get some time about how many people got busted.

Our Convo on Sonnen's comments has hit a rock & a hard place. I'm willing to say it's not 100% but you're trying to use speculation to say that it's 100% not true. Just the fact that you're using speculation should imo not be a 100% valuation... but if the logic you've supplied me so far is all you got, then we'll just have to agree to disagree because I haven't heard any evidence 100% that says Sonnen was lying about what he thought he believed.

That said, you've changed my thinking about Pride being fixed a lot. They duped me back in the day with the single digit events & I guess I just never got over it. It's a fool me once shame on you... fool me twice shame on me, kind of thing. That said it's all history now & so I can see that there's a big possibility that they didn't want to risk having fixed fights & so I can weigh that along side of the fact that the org was run by the Yakusa. So it's all still shady & not 100% in either direction by my pov.

I'm still not taking any credit away from Pride fighters for their top competition wins, but I'm also not giving them "extra credit" for the length of Fedor's run due to the many things we've talked about. It's so complicated that I'm not sure how you can be 100% that nothing was fixed. At least give me a 99%... lol....

> Baroni said it durin´an interview on American TV, some 2 yrs ago (there was even a thread about it ´round here)

> As I said, guys like Sonnen like to manipulate: he used that narrative right when he was about to fight Fedor.
See: droppin´a narrative is one thin´, provin´it is a completely different story.
Eazy to check, tho: since his main point was about Refs. usin´ear pieces, you jus´have to ask him which technical sequence was indeed controversial. Only then will we be able to judge whether he has legit understandin´of that era or not.

> To assess whether a fight was rigged or not, you need to double-check 4 essential parameters of the equation:
1- Context
2- Scorin´System
3- Potentially controversial technical sequences
4- Evolution of the fighters´ skill set.

This is the right modus operandi, & the 3 Decons about SAKU´s fights [vs Vitor/Randle/Mezger] were a good example of that.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

See: droppin´a narrative is one thin´, provin´it is a completely different story.
Eazy to check, tho: since his main point was about Refs. usin´ear pieces, you jus´have to ask him which technical sequence was indeed controversial. Only then will we be able to judge whether he has legit understandin´of that era or not.

Just as I can't prove his narrative was true & neither did he by not bringing up specific examples... you can't prove it's not true, so it goes both ways. There's enough shady stuff from Pride's end that would suggest the "possibility" for corruption existed. I'm not telling you to verify it happened, I'm just not vibing with your 100% dismissal of it. I mean your own words about certain fights say something could've been fishy... but in our convo here, you're dimissing anything fishy at all 100%.

Sonnen's claim was more than ear pieces. He said that the opponents of the big super stars were convinced to lose. You know that.... & even have that video in one of your decons, so I'm not sure why you keep saying it's only about earpieces.

Anywayz... we're now repeating ourselves though, so I'm over it.

I'm still interested to look into whether or not the UFC disciplined people for a failed drug test prior to the end of pride... but I just haven't found the time yet. I tried some quick google searches but it keeps bringing up new stuff. I'll get back to that at some point & see if I can dig something up one way or the other.

 

[gono btw]

Just as I can't prove his narrative was true & neither did he by not bringing up specific examples... you can't prove it's not true, so it goes both ways. There's enough shady stuff from Pride's end that would suggest the "possibility" for corruption existed. I'm not telling you to verify it happened, I'm just not vibing with your 100% dismissal of it. I mean your own words about certain fights say something could've been fishy... but in our convo here, you're dimissing anything fishy at all 100%.

Sonnen's claim was more than ear pieces. He said that the opponents of the big super stars were convinced to lose. You know that.... & even have that video in one of your decons, so I'm not sure why you keep saying it's only about earpieces.

Anywayz... we're now repeating ourselves though, so I'm over it.

I'm still interested to look into whether or not the UFC disciplined people for a failed drug test prior to the end of pride... but I just haven't found the time yet. I tried some quick google searches but it keeps bringing up new stuff. I'll get back to that at some point & see if I can dig something up one way or the other.

But right now, I cant prove it´s not true for the simple reason that you´re not providin´ the specific [potentially controversial] technical sequences that Sonnen´s talkin´about.
See, it´s easy to talk about vague, general 'facts' without pointin´at somethin´really concrete. It´s an easy way out.
I can easily play the same game with the UFC, literally twist narratives & show you some weird technical sequences or contexts, & had they occured in Pride, people would have said that it was shaddy af.

And that´s what this Decons is all about: double-checkin´ the 4 essential parameters of the equation.

That´s the only legit modus operandi.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

But right now, I cant prove it´s not true for the simple reason that you´re not providin´ the specific [potentially controversial] technical sequences that Sonnen´s talkin´about.
See, it´s easy to talk about vague, general 'facts' without pointin´at somethin´really concrete. It´s an easy way out.
I can easily play the same game with the UFC, literally twist narratives & show you some weird technical sequences or contexts, & had they occured in Pride, people would have said that it was shaddy af.

And that´s what this Decons is all about: double-checkin´ the 4 essential parameters of the equation.

That´s the only legit modus operandi.

Fair enough, & I understand.
I've proven that I understand by changing my pov based on the "BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT" that you've provided. I no longer can say for 100% sure that Pride cheated.

You're not giving me that same "benefit of the doubt" on the other side though. You're 100% dismissing it & saying there's no way the Yakusa run organization that started out fixing fights in its beginning & has questionable but unprovable fights even gets a single 1% of doubt. Your pov is that it's 100% that Pride didn't fix fights & that's what I have a problem with. Just give me 1% doubt & this discussion is over.

 

[gono btw]

Fair enough, & I understand.
I've proven that I understand by changing my pov based on the "BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT" that you've provided. I no longer can say for 100% sure that Pride cheated.

You're not giving me that same "benefit of the doubt" on the other side though. You're 100% dismissing it & saying there's no way the Yakusa run organization that started out fixing fights in its beginning & has questionable but unprovable fights even gets a single 1% of doubt. Your pov is that it's 100% that Pride didn't fix fights & that's what I have a problem with. Just give me 1% doubt & this discussion is over.

hmmm...you misundertood the OP of this Decons, then... Some 69 fights of Pride´s early era were reassessed.
Out of them, I singled out 4 potentially controversial, & explained the context [transition from the pro-wrasslin´ era to 'real' Modern MMA]

Then I pointed at the potentially controversial fights that occured after those 1st 10 events.
Overall, you still have to show evidences that Pride had indeed more [legit] potentially controversial fights than UFC.
I can easily show you shaddy forgotten fights in UFC, that got the pass because they didnt happen in Japan.

Important:when you say "Pride fixed fights", it´s kindah tricky (and that´s the reason why I havent dropped the Decons yet, since even though it looked like a not so complex one, the part related to power structure inside [or even outside > middlemen] the Org. is relatively complex).

 

[Myrddin Wild]

hmmm...you misundertood the OP of this Decons, then... Some 69 fights of Pride´s early era were reassessed.
Out of them, I singled out 4 potentially controversial, & explained the context explainin´the transition from the pro-wrasslin´ era to 'real' Modern MMA.

Then I pointed at the potentially controversial fights that occured after those 1st 10 events.
Overall, you still have to show evidences that Pride had indeed more [legit] potentially controversial fights than UFC.
I can easily show you shaddy forgotten fights in UFC, that got the pass because they didnt happen in Japan.

Important:when you say "Pride fixed fights", it´s kindah tricky (and that´s the reason why I havent dropped the Decons yet, since even though it looked like a not so complex one, the part related to power structure inside [or even outside > middlemen] the Org. is relatively complex).

I'm not askin to say they did it. I'm only asking for 1% chance that it's a possibility. Your last paragraph is what I'm talking about.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's fixes across any org... so I find it seriously bias if you're not even willing to give it a possibility in the Yakusa run Pride who fixed fights in the early days & had a contract guaranteeing they wouldn't test that there's no way there was any fixes ever. You're saying 100% no way... it didn't happen. That's my only gripe.

give me 1%... hell give me 1/2%... just don't give me 100% on the flip.