Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 25] - The Wild, Wild East...

[gono btw]

Warning: TLDR here.

Today:

MYTH: Pride was completely rigged.

Note: this thread can be seen as an extension of these ones:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-sakakibara-asked-chuteboxe-to-kill-saku-38.3955161/


3 Stances here:
> MMA Medias: "Pride was the Wild West..."
> Fans: "Most fights were fixed..."
> Pro Fighters: Sonnen recently, and of course 'Big Daddy' Goodridge´s [hardcore] version (book): "90% of Pride´s 1st 10 events were fixed..."

Spoiler

https://bleacherreport.com/articles...e-90-percent-of-early-pride-fights-were-fixed

He would then later change his version:

Pride 1 : 75% = fixed.

Pride 2 : 50% = fixed.

Pride 3 : 25% = fixed.

Pride 4 : 10% = fixed.

etc...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnA6wFfjpX4

The truth is that when you ask them to show you which fighs (besides the obvious ones) were works,
it then becomes tricky...

If you really wanna assess those fights, you have to know about:
> The context
> The fighters´skill set
> The fighters´s evolution.

Claimin´that a fight was fixed jus´ because a Japanese fighter was not supposed to beat a foreigner, is not a serious assessment.

Pride was not supposed to be an Org., but a one-and-done event materializin´ the Takada Dojo vs Hickson Rivalry...
Still, there had to be some need to create a 'local' market...
But clearly, they were tryin´to transition from a Pro-Wrasslin´Configuration to a Modern MMA one...

10 Events, 71 MMA Fights.
90% Rigged = 64 Fights...
"Most fights" = 36 Fights...

Let´s check...

1st, let´s clear out somethin´pretty obvious: a Draw, NC or DQ cant realistically be considered the result of a fixed fight, wouldnt make sense...
There has to be a purpose, in the near future: you rig a fight to create a momentum...

1/ PRIDE 1:

Brazil Hickson Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (armbar) 1 04:47
USA/Ger Kimo Leopoldo vs. USA Dan Severn Draw (time expired) 1 30:00:00
Japan Koji Kitao def. Australia Nathan Jones Submission (keylock) 1 02:14
Brazil Henzo Gracie vs. Japan Akira Shoji Draw (time expired) 3 10:00
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. Russia Oleg Taktarov KO (punch) 1 04:57
Japan Kazunari Murakami def. USA John Dixson Submission (armbar) 1 01:34

> Potential Controversies:

Gary Goodridge def. Oleg Taktarov:
Oleg was obviously a better MMA fighter, but Big Daddy was a dangerous fighter, especially in the beginning of the fight.
Oleg´s defensive striking could be problematic at times, would keep his hands low, more often than not.

Kazunari Murakami def. John Dixson:
This one might be the trickiest to assess...
Dixson had a strange gameplan in that fight: he 1st got the TD, but quickly stood up, without inflictin´ any legit damage.
Then, instead of striking from the outside, he went again for the clinch, against Murakami who´s a judoka and who got the easy throw, then straight armbar, poorly defended....
Dixson was 3-5 going to this fight (US and Russian NHB), losses vs legit opponents like Igor,Severn,
Barretão etc...
Even WW Macias managed to beat him at OFFF 1.
But... Dixson was also a Judo National Champ (x2), and he did have a ground game, see his 2 heelhooks in WEF...:
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/the-day-nobody-knew-if-sauer-had-tapped-or-not.3886109/

Spoiler: Dixson @ WEF

On the other side, Murakami was no scrub... He was a judoka with legit ground game, as seen in this other
fight @ Jungle Fight (see also his early fights @ Lumax Cup JJJ 1995-96 Tournaments):

Spoiler: Murakami @ Jungle Fight

Koji Kitao def. Australia Nathan Jones :
Jones was a striker, clueless on the ground and about submissions.
He had only 2 fights (1 pro, 1 amateur) during his career, both losses.
This event was not Pride ONE, it was a one-and-done event, not an Organization...
Jones later confirmed that it was indeed a work, pretendin´he was 'promised' other fights, but...he was never invited again, which proves, if indeed his fight was a work, that Pride Officials and Cornermen were not necessary linked.

Meanwhile, it´s not very well-known, but Kitao [sumo] did get the dominant position in all of his 3 fights:
> In UFC, vs Mark Hall, he took him down, but got cut during the process,and the Ref. stopped the fight

> vs The Pedro (striker), in Universal Vale Tudo Fighting 1, he took him down but then was clueless about what to do on the ground,got reversed and hammered with elbows.

@ 1h42mn:

Spoiler: vs The Pedro

Hence, the question is: did he learn the basic keylock in those 18 months between the Pedro fight & the Pride one?

2/ PRIDE 2:

USA Mark Kerr def. Croatia Branko Cikatic DQ 1 02:14
Brazil Marco Ruas def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge Submission (heel hook) 1 09:09
Brazil Henzo Gracie def. Japan Sanae Kikuta Submission (guillotine choke) 6 00:43
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. USA Vernon White Submission (armbar) 3 06:53
Japan Akira Shoji def. Brazil Juan Mott Submission (rear-naked choke) 1 03:47
Brazil Hoyler Gracie def. Japan Naoki Sano Submission (armbar) 1 33:14:00

> Potential Controversies:

Akira Shoji def. Brazil Juan Mott:
Tricky here too... But when you think about it, Shoji had already showed against Henzo that he was legit,
Mott was realistically a step-down in competition here...

Hoyler Gracie def. Japan Naoki Sano:
Sano, while much bigger, was completely clueless on the ground, despite having dominant positions during the fight.

Kazushi Sakuraba def. Vernon White:
[see the Ronin fight assessment]
In the Saku vs Tiger White case: remember, Tiger was originally a striker, who had mainly experience in Vale Tudo [World Vale Tudo Championship] and Pancrase, where he started to learn about the ground game but still was always dominated there.
During the fight, he was outgrappled by the superior Saku, and spent the whole fight defending positions or subs, but always 1 or 2 moves late.

This fight is pivotal in MMA history, IMO... Showed the transition from the 1980s/1990s to the 2000s, and how Pancrase helped new teams and fighters to improve their game.

2/ PRIDE 3:

Japan Nobuhiko Takada def. USA Kyle Sturgeon Submission (heel hook) 1 02:18
USA Mark Kerr def. Brazil Pedro Otavio Technical Submission (kimura) 1 02:13
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. USA Amir Rahnavardi KO (punches) 1 07:22
Japan Daiju Takase def. USA Emmanuel Yarborough Submission (punches) 2 03:22
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Canada Carlos Newton Submission (kneebar) 2 05:19
Japan Daijiro Matsui vs. Japan Akira Shoji Draw (time limit) 4 10:00

> Potential Controversies:

Nobuhiko Takada def. Kyle Sturgeon :



Sturgeon was a kickboxer, was his only MMA' fight (seems he had some 'Pancrase-style' bouts in California prior to this fight, but cant confirm.).
IMO Sturgeon was a very beatable opponent for Takada, who was indeed a limited fighter but who had a sufficient skill set to 'catch' a noob like Sturgeon on the ground, who probably didnt know how to defend a heel hook, Takada´s go-to-move...
Could have been a legit test for Takada´s real skills, but he would have probably looked bad, and Pride needed to sell his next big fight against Coleman.
But, indeed, this fight looked a lil bit too 'choreographed'...

Context: Pride needed to create a [local] market, and needed a big star (SAKU G. was not there yet...).

Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Canada Carlos Newton :
Ronin vs Saku was not a work.
But to understand this, you have to acknowledge their [weird] psychology...

The unofficial theory claimed that it was a non-verbal agreement, but I´ll go further:
both were always reluctant to throw punches while in the guard.
They had a real aversion to it, as if it were some unworthy thing to do.

Even standing, Ronin (while always saying b4 all the fights, that he had been working on his striking) would hardly show his new striking skills.

Hence, I believe there was no non-verbal agreement at all: Saku did his usual thing in the guard, showing no interest in setting his submission attempts with strikes. Watching this, Ronin, understood his intentions, and got interested in outsmarting him in the grappling game.

Ronin probably watched the Saku vs Tiger fight 3 months b4...
He knew that any unnecessary punch during the scrambling on the ground could jeopardize his positions..

Saku was full of feints and traps.

4/ PRIDE 4:

Brazil Hickson Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (armbar) 1 09:30
USA Mark Kerr def. Brazil Hugo Duarte TKO (retirement) 3 02:32
Japan Alexander Otsuka def. Brazil Marco Huas TKO (corner stoppage) 2 10:00
Japan Satoshi Honma def. Japan Naoki Sano TKO (punches) 1 09:25
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba vs. Brazil Allan Goes Draw (time limit) 3 10:00
Japan Daijiro Matsui vs. Japan Sanae Kikuta Draw (time limit) 3 10:00
Japan Akira Shoji def. Brazil Wallid Ismail TKO (punches) 2 01:26
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge TKO (punches) 1 05:58

> Potential Controversies:

Japan Alexander Otsuka def. Brazil Marco Huas:
Huge upset, Huas completely dominated the 1st Rd, Otsuka literally saved by the bell.
But: bad reaction to pain killers made Huas quit on his stool.

Japan Akira Shoji def. Brazil Wallid Ismail:
Wallid with cardio problem. Tough but winnable fight for resilient Shoji.
> Historical Context about Carlson´s fighters:
It´s rather doubtful that Carlson would have agreed to corner any fighter if he had known about any possibility of a fixed fight.
Indeed, during the Vale Tudo era, in the 1960s, when George was the Family´s Champ, at one point he went to South Brazil and competed there...
Then, the rest of the family heard about him accepting fixed fights, and George was ostracized...
Carlson wouldnt have accepted it, realistically...

Japan Satoshi Honma def. Japan Naoki Sano
See Sano vs Hoyler... Poor Sano completely clueless on the ground.

5/ PRIDE 5:

Japan Nobuhiko Takada def. USA Mark Coleman Submission (heel hook) 2 01:44
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Vitor Belfort Decision (unanimous) 2 10:00
USA Enson Inoue def. Japan Soichi Nishida Submission (rear-naked choke) 1 00:24
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Japan Akira Shoji Decision (unanimous) 2 10:00
Brazil Francisco Bueno def. Japan Satoshi Honma TKO (punches) 1 04:59
USA Egan Inoue def. Japan Minoru Toyonaga TKO (punches) 1 05:53

> Potential Controversies:

Nobuhiko Takada def. Mark Coleman:



Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Vitor Belfort:

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/

USA Enson Inoue def. Japan Soichi Nishida:
Nishida clueless on the ground.

United States Egan Inoue def. Japan Minoru Toyonaga:
Toyonaga = Takada Dojo...
Egan was much stronger, and had a much more legit ground game.

Spoiler: Egan Inoue [Lumax Cup]

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6zkrwb

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6zkqmb

6/ PRIDE 6:

USA Mark Kerr def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Submission (kimura) 1 03:04
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Ebenezer Fontes Braga Submission (armbar) 1 09:23
Japan Naoya Ogawa def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge Submission (keylock) 2 00:36
Japan Akira Shoji def. USA Guy Mezger Decision (split) 3 05:00
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Brazil Carlos Barreto Decision (split) 3 05:00
Canada Carlos Newton def. Japan Daijiro Matsui Decision (unanimous) 3 05:00
USA Carl Malenko def. USA Egan Inoue Decision (unanimous) 3 05:00

> Potential Controversies:

Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Ebenezer Fontes Braga:
Braga had an interesting skill set evolution, but few MMA opportunities, came too late in the game.
It´s important to note that he always had TDD issues, see one of his early Vale Tudo fights against Jorge Pereira (BJJ):

Spoiler: Ebenezer Fontes Braga vs Jorge Pereira

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSIyP9iZvJo

Japan Naoya Ogawa def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge:
Claims from Big Daddy that someone from Ogawa´s corner (not from Pride) tried to rig this fight,
but he rejected the offer. Hence, legit loss here.

Japan Akira Shoji def. USA Guy Mezger:
- tough 2 score fight (Draw at the end of the regular, then Split Dec.)
- Mezger wearin´ Pancrase protections on the legs, IIRC didnt use his right kick (injury?), questionnable gameplan (instead of outstrikin´ Shoji from the outside, Guy chose to go for the body lock).
- Vintage Mezger with his lack of urgency...

Upset?Yes, but Shoji was a tough guy (see how he survived against Igor)..

7/ PRIDE 7:

Japan Daijiro Matsui def. Netherlands Bob Schrijber DQ (illegal kick) 1 10:00
Brazil Wanderlei Silva def. USA Carl Malenko Decision (unanimous) 2 10:00
USA Maurice Smith def. Croatia Branko Cikatic Submission (forearm choke) 1 07:33
Japan Akira Shoji def. USA Larry Parker Decision (unanimous) 3 05:00
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. USA Anthony Macias Submission (armbar) 2 02:30
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn vs. USA Mark Kerr No Contest 2 04:36

> Potential Controversies:

USA Maurice Smith def. Croatia Branko Cikatic:
Maurice had a previous learnin´experience in Pancrase & Rings, which taught him about the ground game... His new Team Alliance was decisive in the evolution of his ground game too.

Japan Akira Shoji def. USA Larry Parker:
At this stage, Shoji can no longer be considered an underdog against someone like Parker, realistically...
Vintage Shoji win again here.

8/ PRIDE 8:

Brazil Wanderlei Silva def. Japan Daijiro Matsui Unanimous Decision 2 10:00
USA Frank Trigg def. Brazil Fabiano Iha TKO (Punches) 1 05:00
Brazil Allan Goes def. USA Carl Malenko Submission (Arm-Triangle Choke) 1 09:16
USA Mark Coleman def. Brazil Ricardo Morais Unanimous Decision 2 10:00
USA Tom Erikson def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge Unanimous Decision 2 10:00
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Brazil Francisco Bueno KO (Punch) 1 01:23
Brazil Henzo Gracie def. Japan Alexander Otsuka Unanimous Decision 2 10:00
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Hoyler Gracie Technical Submission (Kimura) 2 13:16

> Potential Controversies:

Kazushi Sakuraba def. Hoyler Gracie:
Them Gracies 1st negociated some very special rules: if SAKU wasnt able to submit or KO Hoyler, the latter would then be considered the winner...
They negociated again, and they finally agreed on no Judges...
Obviously, Hoyler didnt tap, but what a [physical] mismatch... SAKU was forced to take this fight (he didnt want it, considerin´ Hoyler too small), but had to in order to get the bigger Gracies...
SAKU punished Hoyler with vicious leg kicks when he opted for the butt scoot position, and his pain was a sad thing to witness indeed... If you´re not a Gracie, nothing much to whine about tbh...

Frank Trigg def. Fabiano Iha :
Even match-up, arguably...
Trigg was more of a UFC guy, wouldnt come back to Pride till Pride 33 in 2007...

Mark Coleman def. Ricardo Morais = even match-up, arguably
Morais = a Carlson Gracie BJJ BB...Tough, huge client...

9/ Pride Grand Prix 2000 Opening Round:

Brazil Hoyce Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada Decision (Unanimous) 1 15:00
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. USA Guy Mezger TKO (retirement) 1 15:00
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Japan Alexander Otsuka Decision (Unanimous) 1 15:00
Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge def. Japan Osamu Kawahara submission (forearm choke) 1 00:51
USA Mark Coleman def. Japan Masaaki Satake submission (neck crank) 1 01:14
Japan Akira Shoji def. Brazil Ebenezer Fontes Braga Decision (Unanimous) 1 15:00
USA Mark Kerr def. USA Enson Inoue Decision (Majority) 1 15:00
Japan Kazuyuki Fujita def. Netherlands Hans Nijman submission (scarf hold) 1 02:48
Brazil Wanderlei Silva def. Netherlands Bob Schrijber Submission (rear-naked choke) 1 02:42

> Potential Controversies:

Brazil Hoyce Gracie def. Japan Nobuhiko Takada:
Hoyce got the decision vs Takada, Pride´s main star, while the Japanese spent some 95% of the fight on top of him...because of Pride´s [complex] Scoring System...
Takada didnt know how to deal with the BJJ Guard...Completely scared to pass guard/posture up...

Openweight Japan Akira Shoji def. Brazil Ebenezer Fontes Braga:
Another hard-fought Dec. Win against Underrated Braga, who always had trouble with his TDD...
Can be considered an upset, I believe... but there was a path to victory here, realistically...

Openweight Japan Kazuyuki Fujita def. Netherlands Hans Nijman:
not on the same level grappling-wise.

Openweight Kazushi Sakuraba def. Guy Mezger:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/

10/ Pride Grand Prix 2000 Finals:

USA Mark Coleman def. Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn Submission (knees) 2 03:09
USA Ken Shamrock def. Japan Alexander Otsuka KO (punches) 1 09:43
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Japan Kazushi Sakuraba TKO (corner stoppage) 1 15:00
USA Mark Coleman def. Japan Kazuyuki Fujita TKO (corner stoppage) 1 00:02
Ukraine Igor Vovchanchyn def. Trinidad and Tobago Gary Goodridge TKO (punches) 1 10:14
Japan Kazushi Sakuraba def. Brazil Hoyce Gracie TKO (corner stoppage) 6 15:00
USA Mark Coleman def. Japan Akira Shoji Unanimous decision
Japan Kazuyuki Fujita def. USA Mark Kerr Unanimous decision
USA Guy Mezger def. Japan Masaaki Satake Unanimous decision

> Potential Controversies:

Mark Coleman def. Kazuyuki Fujita:
Fujita won but took a beating in his previous fight against Kerr, decided to throw the towel at the beginning of his fight against Coleman.

Kazuyuki Fujita def. Mark Kerr:
GOAT Upset, for sure (Kerr´s 'streak win' was @ 13), but Kerr had personal issues by then (see his fight against Igor, and watch 'The Smashing Machine')...



CONCLUSION:

Pride´s 1st 10 Events = 71 Fights:

2 Clear Works : Takada vs Coleman & Sturgeon (winnable fight for Takada though...)

2 Suspicious Fights:
Dixson vs Murakami (winnable fight for Murakami though...)
Jones vs Kitao

Spoiler: 'DECONS' Threads

http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-24-carlson´s-silence.3879035/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-part-9-bjj-during-the-vale-tudo-era.3826197/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...stern-european-career.3830345/#post-144836697
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-14-mousasi-flukes.3836617/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-1-2.3844333/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-the-anatomy-of-a-fighter-khabib-2-2.3844507/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...t-16-siamese-brothers-the-2-hw-goats.3851935/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-25-the-wild-wild-east.3886295/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...23-cross-training-in-mma´s-dark-ages.3874607/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-groovy-paradox.3893619/page-3#post-148236621
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...de-ow-gp-mezger-those-infamous-6-lbs.3899881/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-penn-the-frontrunner.3925599/#post-149993595
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-30-mma´s-buster-douglas.3935185/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-fights-start-from-standing-position.3808087/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-5-the-true-evolution-of-mma.3807975/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...tion-of-submission-defence-grappling.3803333/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...3-the-evolution-of-werdum´s-striking.3831261/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-2-hunto´s-atomicbutt-drop.3735841/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-1-hoyce-his-gi-ufc-1.3734725/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...skill-set-mma-evolution-the-hws-case.3815393/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...hs-part-8-mma-cans-the-unsung-heroes.3822123/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-10-b4-after-usada.3826221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-11-fighters´evolution.3827221/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...t-mma-evolution-the-lhw-golden-era-s.3828473/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...s-part-17-askren´s-undefeated-record.3855315/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...art-18-the-genesis-of-ufc-1´s-roster.3855847/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...-evolution-the-mw-transitional-era-s.3858851/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-20-judges-mma-ideology.3862173/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-21-the-disorganized-ww-div.3873877/
http://forums.sherdog.com/threads/d...part-22-the-avenged-losses-narrative.3874257/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...-ufc-5-requiem-for-the-vale-tudo-era.3947367/
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/...s-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

 

[DeeDubb]

Liked cause you did a lot of work and research. However, I don't really care about Pride rigging, so I only made it about 1 page in before I gave up.

 

[sabretitan]

Rickson is 400 -0
Tank never touched Pat

 

[HHJ]

What do you think about Ogawa's fights @gono btw

 

[moreorless87]

Takada/Sturgeon was always the dodgiest looking to me, it looked very much like a UWFi(Takada's org before Pride) pro wrestling match in terms of the kinds of strikes they were throwing and the grappling.

Really though as Gono says Pride didn't start off as some clear shift to MMA, including the Gracies did definitely help fans think it was more legit and I don't think theres any evidence there fights weren't legit but still it was more the Takada show evolving out of shoot style pro wrestling the same way Rings shifted from that to MMA.

I am a great believer in the idea that the best way to keep a sport legit is to have a sceptical fan base and I think after a year or two that's what you had in Pride. The UFC hype of "legitimacy" via AC's I think can breed a climate were people just won't consider corruption and you can get away with a lot of dodgy decisions. Look at something like Ricco/Nog in Pride, how much focus it got and how Matt Hume had to go indepth about how and why it was scored the way it was, By comparison judging in the US has always been much more vague, just a list of things to be considered and little direction as to how to weight them against each other.

 

[moreorless87]

What do you think about Ogawa's fights @gono btw

I wouldn't be shocked if his corner tried to buy off Goodridge but equally that could just have been a miscommunication with the language barrier. I think if you watch the fight its clear that Gary was not interested in taking a dive(and has never said he did), he was throwing big potentially fight ending punches right from the start.

Leko is the other one that comes up but you look at the Goodridge fight and Ogawa actually drops Gary with the same straight he drops Leko with so I do see that as evidence he has some standup ability. Against a kickboxer with very limited grappling panicking as he's chased down him down I don't see that punch landing and hurting him as impossible.

The main issue with Ogawa I'd say is that Pride fixed the brakets of the HWGP to give him an easy path to the finals vs Giant Silva and Leko. Those are both fights Ogawa should win(you are talking an Olympic silver medallist judoka) without any need for fixing them.

 

[HHJ]

Leko looked absolutley despondent in the post fight interview,i wasnt sure it was because he couldnt believe he lost,or that he felt bad about taking the dive but genuine emotion nontheless. He is also showing limping to the back after the fight.

 

[HHJ]

I
The main issue with Ogawa I'd say is that Pride fixed the brakets of the HWGP to give him an easy path to the finals vs Giant Silva and Leko. Those are both fights Ogawa should win(you are talking an Olympic silver medallist judoka) without any need for fixing them.

I hated that they fixed the brackets.

 

[gono btw]

I hated that they fixed the brackets.

UFC did it too, see the Hoyce vs Art episode...

 

[gono btw]

Liked cause you did a lot of work and research. However, I don't really care about Pride rigging, so I only made it about 1 page in before I gave up.

Problematic though...

 

[gono btw]

Rickson is 400 -0
Tank never touched Pat

Hickson is 482-2 though...

 

[gono btw]

What do you think about Ogawa's fights @gono btw

I wouldn't be shocked if his corner tried to buy off Goodridge but equally that could just have been a miscommunication with the language barrier. I think if you watch the fight its clear that Gary was not interested in taking a dive(and has never said he did), he was throwing big potentially fight ending punches right from the start.

Leko is the other one that comes up but you look at the Goodridge fight and Ogawa actually drops Gary with the same straight he drops Leko with so I do see that as evidence he has some standup ability. Against a kickboxer with very limited grappling panicking as he's chased down him down I don't see that punch landing and hurting him as impossible.

The main issue with Ogawa I'd say is that Pride fixed the brakets of the HWGP to give him an easy path to the finals vs Giant Silva and Leko. Those are both fights Ogawa should win(you are talking an Olympic silver medallist judoka) without any need for fixing them.

Leko looked absolutley despondent in the post fight interview,i wasnt sure it was because he couldnt believe he lost,or that he felt bad about taking the dive but genuine emotion nontheless. He is also showing limping to the back after the fight.

OK, I didnt consider the Leko episode here since it doesnt belong to Pride´s 1st 10 events.

3 things:

1/ I consider that the Leko case has to be a 'complete package':
he only had 3 MMA fights and lost them all under 100 sec. , all on the ground via sub or GNP.
Complete rookie on the ground.
Hence, you have to acknowledge that he either took a dive in all 3 fights, or took none...

2/ If Ogawa could beat Big Daddy, who was a much more legit MMA fighter (not that clueless on the ground), I find it hard to believe that his manager wouldnt trust his chances against a rookie like Leko tbh...
After the Goodridge win, his manager should have been brimmin´ with confidence, realistically...

3/ Finally, somethin´forgotten/overlooked by them fans:

Leko admitted after the fight that he was not in the best of shape.
He underwent surgery for a herniated disc 1 week after the fight.

 

[tenniswhiz]

Ricardo Morais was actually a purple belt in BJJ when he fought Coleman.

 

[moreorless87]

I hated that they fixed the brackets.

Honestly though things worked out ok in the end with the Fedor/Nog NC meaning they were both fresh for the rematch. Having most of the poor fighters in one bracket ment the rest of the GP was more entertaining.

Generally I would say the GP's were a good system though, if you got into them all you had to do was keep winning and you were champ in a few months whether you were Wanderlei Silva or Dean Lister.

 

[Fesaine]

Myth: MMA evolution is not real

Fact: 99% of ufc fighters/analysts think mma evolution is very real.

Your series of "Deconstructing" myths is as credible as a guy who starts watching MMA two days ago.Its really nothing more than a history revisionist and dwelling pride fighters because you're still stuck in the past.

 

[gono btw]

Myth: MMA evolution is not real

Fact: 99% of ufc fighters/analysts think mma evolution is very real.

Your series of "Deconstructing" myths is as credible as a guy who starts watching MMA two days ago.Its really nothing more than a history revisionist and dwelling pride fighters because you're still stuck in the past.

Great, great... but this one is about... Fixed fights...

Spoiler

Now Sit Down, & Stay Quiet.

 

[gono btw]

Ricardo Morais was actually a purple belt in BJJ when he fought Coleman.

Hmm...yeah,ya might be right, probably mixed it up here, I remember he was a Blue Belt when he fought in Russia, IAFC 1..
4 yrs b4 the Coleman fight... Then I lost track..

 

[moreorless87]

Myth: MMA evolution is not real

Fact: 99% of ufc fighters/analysts think mma evolution is very real.

Your series of "Deconstructing" myths is as credible as a guy who starts watching MMA two days ago.Its really nothing more than a history revisionist and dwelling pride fighters because you're still stuck in the past.

Your going back to Bubbuns standard argument there for me, you ask Anderson Silva what kind of level he's at before his next match and what is he going to say? "I'm old and declined" or "I feel I'm at my best ever"? clearly the former both to hype the match and to get himself hyped up.

Overplaying evolution and underplaying fighters decline just works for everyone marketing wise, everyone wants to have the best product today rather than harking back to the past. Is a member of a MMA gym going to say "were good but the way Fedor was training in the 00's was on another level"? of course he isn't.

 

[gono btw]

Takada/Sturgeon was always the dodgiest looking to me, it looked very much like a UWFi(Takada's org before Pride) pro wrestling match in terms of the kinds of strikes they were throwing and the grappling.

Really though as Gono says Pride didn't start off as some clear shift to MMA, including the Gracies did definitely help fans think it was more legit and I don't think theres any evidence there fights weren't legit but still it was more the Takada show evolving out of shoot style pro wrestling the same way Rings shifted from that to MMA.

I am a great believer in the idea that the best way to keep a sport legit is to have a sceptical fan base and I think after a year or two that's what you had in Pride. The UFC hype of "legitimacy" via AC's I think can breed a climate were people just won't consider corruption and you can get away with a lot of dodgy decisions. Look at something like Ricco/Nog in Pride, how much focus it got and how Matt Hume had to go indepth about how and why it was scored the way it was, By comparison judging in the US has always been much more vague, just a list of things to be considered and little direction as to how to weight them against each other.

for those who missed it:

http://www.sherdog.com/news/news/PRIDE-Judge-Matt-Hume-Defends-Nog-vs-Ricco-Decision-1157

 

[dawzz]

Hickson is 482-1 though...

View attachment 495035

Hickson didnt knew what the rules were . Hickson is still the best fighter in the world