Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 25] - The Wild, Wild East...

[Myrddin Wild]

> about Sonnen: he´s more than not qualified to assess this shit,

I'm not convinced of this. I think he's an OG who's been around all the orgs others have been around & has trained & mingled with all the people of that day & if you've ever been in a gym just bullshitting with people, this kind of stuff gets talked about. There's really nothing to talk about except for the techniques or the sport itself, so you end up just gossiping really... so it's hard for me to feel that even if he didn't have direct knowledge that he wasn't hearing it in the circles he was running in.

This could be said to be circumstantial & secondary information, but I don't agree that he's unqualified to assess it. If we were talking about someone who wasn't even in the scene or even came along later, then fair enough.... but he was a player in the scene during the time we're talking about.... as early as double digits pride... So as much as it's unfair for me to say "yes for sure he knows" it's also unfair for you to demand that he doesn't.

> about Sonnen: he´s more than not qualified to assess this shit, he´s also still salty about his Pancrase 'run'.
Watch this fight & you will understand:

I don't know what the commentary was because I don't speak the language but Chael lost... & at 16:03 Chael got called out for a nut shot that the opponent faked. It was clearly an upper thigh, nowhere near the nuts.

I don't feel that anything was self evident from watching this fight why Chael is Salty... unless he was deducted points for the nut shot that didn't happen.

Would you please explain your pov that this explains why Chael is dissing Asian sports.

1- He´s not talkin´about the fights, he´s talkin´about the brackets.

Okay... do we have a link so I can review the context for myself? It's not really good they're fixing brackets, but we can see avoidance granted to "special" fighters in other orgs... so I'm not going to hold that against Pride if that's all they did, but I'd like to see if that's all Page was referring to with a link to his comment.

2- Not much can be told about this shit. Not the 1st time or the last one that a fighter comes up with a wtf excuse.
Meanwhile, why would they poison him, particularly, & not Randleman,Crocop,Igor... etc... all the LHWs/HWs who were considered much more proven & dangerous than Rampage who was still initiatin´his career & unknown, from C-League MMA Org.?

While this is your pov, none of this disproves anything Page is saying.

Your pov that it's bull is just your pov... it's not a fact. That said, it's a fact that he said it, but that doesn't necessarily mean we believe it from my end any more than you can disbelieve it from your end. My point being that you're being very hypercritical about something you're speculating about.

Page was 11 pro fights into his "career" by this time after growing up fighting... so the commentary I heard about maybe he was so nervous that his stomach felt "fight altering heavy & sick" doesn't really add up. So something happened to his stomach & you're saying he's lying & making excuses... & I'm saying you don't know that & it may or may not be true, but you can't say that because you don't know & I can't say it's true because I don't know.

Lets try & do it this way: Out of Page's 14 losses... how many examples do you present where he made excuses? I know for sure he's lost & just straight up admitted he got his ass kicked. I'd have to do a specific study to find out how much he did that, but I'm just saying right now that I know he has just manned up & admitted it before. So if you're running a narrative on him being a "Chronic excuse maker" then lets lay it out & see how it shakes out. Lets get into it & break it down & lets get real about "excuses" he's made after a loss & see what's real here.

3- Pride had a back&forth relationships with K1, sometimes cooperatin´, & then finally cuttin´those close ties (stole Crocop from K1). tbh: why would Pride be mad at him about winnin´against Cyril Abidi ? Abidi never even fought in Pride, was hardly an MMA fighter...

I don't know... but I know Page said it in frustration about Pride's control. Saying that he's making things up doesn't answer his gripe. I honestly don't know what's right or wrong, but it can't just be dismissed without a proper analysis. That's all I'm asking from you. Lets not just dismiss things or accept them willy nilly... lets get into it & see what we come up with.

 

[Blayt7hh]

I just did you dumbnut. Influencing the way a fighter fight is fixing a fight. Did you watch the fight? Looked like a royal rumble from wwe.

You didn’t or you didn’t read what I wrote correctly. Rampage stated that he didn’t let them influence the way he fought. You later said that he gassed out throwing Saku around.. well that is how he fought back then. The fans referred to him affectionately as Slampage back then. There was some shady going one in Pride, but there is no reason to think this fight was not legit.

 

[HHJ]

Sss´uupp, mate?

I will answer your 4 original questions once we know for sure lil Disciple @ThunderSuck @ThunderStruck is either officially duckin´or not qualified to answer this shit.

Right now, he´s still pretendin´to be dumb:



Anyway:

> about Sonnen: he´s still salty about his Pancrase 'run'.
Watch this fight & you will understand:

Spoiler: Chael Sonnen vs Keiichiro Yamamiya 2004 7 25

> Rampage´s 3 narratives:

1. "the tournaments were fixed",
   
2. "someone poisoned me"
   
3. "They were mad that I won the K1" fight.

1- He´s not talkin´about the fights, he´s talkin´about the brackets.

2- Not much can be told about this shit. Not the 1st time or the last one that a fighter comes up with a wtf excuse.
Meanwhile, why would they poison him, particularly, & not Randleman,Crocop,Igor... etc... all the LHWs/HWs who were considered much more proven & dangerous than Rampage who was still initiatin´his career & unknown, from C-League MMA Org.?

3- Pride had a back&forth relationships with K1, sometimes cooperatin´, & then finally cuttin´those close ties (stole Crocop from K1). tbh: why would Pride be mad at him about winnin´against Cyril Abidi ? Abidi never even fought in Pride, was hardly an MMA fighter...

Yep im inclined to believe this.

Rampage's paranoia and bitterness starts to morph into tall tales

 

[Blayt7hh]

Sss´uupp, mate?

I will answer your 4 original questions once we know for sure lil Disciple @ThunderSuck @ThunderStruck is either officially duckin´or not qualified to answer this shit.

Right now, he´s still pretendin´to be dumb:



Anyway:

> about Sonnen: he´s still salty about his Pancrase 'run'.
Watch this fight & you will understand:

Spoiler: Chael Sonnen vs Keiichiro Yamamiya 2004 7 25

> Rampage´s 3 narratives:

1. "the tournaments were fixed",
   
2. "someone poisoned me"
   
3. "They were mad that I won the K1" fight.

1- He´s not talkin´about the fights, he´s talkin´about the brackets.

2- Not much can be told about this shit. Not the 1st time or the last one that a fighter comes up with a wtf excuse.
Meanwhile, why would they poison him, particularly, & not Randleman,Crocop,Igor... etc... all the LHWs/HWs who were considered much more proven & dangerous than Rampage who was still initiatin´his career & unknown, from C-League MMA Org.?

3- Pride had a back&forth relationships with K1, sometimes cooperatin´, & then finally cuttin´those close ties (stole Crocop from K1). tbh: why would Pride be mad at him about winnin´against Cyril Abidi ? Abidi never even fought in Pride, was hardly an MMA fighter...

Yep im inclined to believe this.

Rampage's paranoia and bitterness starts to morph into tall tales

I didnt see these posts earlier. But yeah, Rampage has said some wild shit. I know he blamed Ibarra when he lost his title for only understanding boxing and pulling him out of the mma mindset. I know he claimed Wolf's lair was all roiding when they got rid of him. And I know he made some crazy claim about Dolce making him miss weight. All of the claims he made and the pride claim all came out in the same relative time span too, including the claim about getting poisoned. Interestingly enough, the all came within a couple years of eachother

 

[HHJ]

I didnt see these posts earlier. But yeah, Rampage has said some wild shit. I know he blamed Ibarra when he lost his title for only understanding boxing and pulling him out of the mma mindset. I know he claimed Wolf's lair was all roiding when they got rid of him. And I know he made some crazy claim about Dolce making him miss weight. All of the claims he made and the pride claim all came out in the same relative time span too, including the claim about getting poisoned. Interestingly enough, the all came within a couple years of eachother

He also left Team Oyama after the Shogun fight. He was saying they should have stopped the fight when he told them that he broke a rib early. The footage after the fight shows Oyama saying to him essentially "Even with a broken rib,dont stop fighting,you still could have won if you landed a shot,you didnt throw anything"

 

[josephsjoseph]

Why did you put so much time a research into this ?

 

[gono btw]

lol... Where you at @lil Disciple

What to say?
Lately, our dear friend started to look up to Mighty Gono, & imitate his ruthless style...

You keep exposing how limited your mma knowledge is.

My fav. Disciple... again followin´ Master´s path... Good...Good...

View attachment 792027

Spoiler: You can use this shit after the "STFU", too...

View attachment 792022

No choice... had to give him propz & accept him as lil Disciple...

Rough times... Everythin´gettin´crazy outside... & inside, seems Sensei @HHJ ´s losin´grip on his No Rush ´tards troops... Not the 1st time he´s losin´somethin´, tho...

Spoiler: HHJ...Ol´footage...

#HHJBless

Not the 1st time I catch lil Disciple lurkin´in those holy Decons... but... 1st time he grew up some balls & dropped his 'truth bomb'... Oddly enough, he wanted no part of that other poster who called him out, twice...

Spoiler: Once in Da...

lil Disciple´s got no interest in challengin´ di leopard, only wants di...

Spoiler

Spoiler: 1st Lesson, lil Disciple...

Show...some...Hes-pect!

I'm curious to see a link to this.
or at the least I'd like to hear your pov here if you don't have one.

Lil Disciple got it from SuperSnitch, who kept diggin´ in the net till he found somethin´to say against SAKU.
It´s basically from a book quotin´ a 2007 interview, that I´ll assess (both [conveniently] partially quoted it, & anyway... they´re not really qualified to assess it...)

Meanwhile I'll speak to our 2nd thread of conversation we seem to have created.



Fair enough to mention that he got paid a lot... but that doesn't excuse them for ripping him off. It's like if I agree to work for someone for 2k per week & they pay me 1k & they tell me that 1k is a lot of money & I should appreciate it. lol... Where are they now that Rampage needs 2 new knees, a hip & a couple of elbows?

I´ve always got the fighters´back, but...

Spoiler: Rampage leavin´Pride...

https://www.mmaweekly.com/rampage-tells-all-about-pride-ufc-and-wfa

Jackson: Pride is a good organization. They’ve got some of the best fighters in the world, but I feel like they didn’t promote me like I wanted to be promoted. Some of their employees treated me like dirt. I feel like if I’m going to be treated like dirt, I might as well get treated like dirt on my own dirt. That’s not the case with the WFA… from what I heard with the meetings, they plan on treating me very well. They promote me. They already got the ad campaign with my picture on it. They’re putting it on billboards. They’re talking about doing some big things, and that’s what going to better set up my career in the future because you saw me on King of Queens… I like that acting stuff. It’s easy. I plan on doing that after my fighting career is over… but I don’t think I could have a good fan base fighting over in Japan with them promoting all of their Japanese fighters, fighters like [Hidehiko] Yoshida and whatever that dude’s name is. The dude that [is like], “I’m a chicken who fights for a boring fight.” When I go down, and win or lose, my fights are the most exciting fights you’ll ever want to see. You know what I’m saying? Even though they’re Japanese, they’re cool and everything, but we have people buying the DVDs later watching the exciting fights, and I think I should be paid for putting my life out there on the line.


Q: Quinton, you talked about the WFA offering you more money than you made in Pride… are we talking significant? Are we talking 50,000 more… 100,000 more? What kind of pay increase did you receive from the WFA compared to Pride?

Jackson: I received a lot more because they gave me more money up-front. They gave me a signing bonus, and they gave me a part of pay-per-view. Cha-ching! And I’m not in any danger of getting the yellow card. The yellow card will take away money. This is worth a lot more money. I’m losing 70,000 dollars a year of tax benefit, but I’ll make it back up by not receiving yellow cards and pay-per-view money.

Q: How much money did you lose on yellow cards alone?

Jackson: Add it all up, I probably lost over 60 to 70 thousand dollars. I’m thinking you can round it off close to 100 grand on yellow cards.

MMAWeekly: One-hundred grand on yellow cards? Wow.

Jackson. Yeah. I’m trying to tell you… and when me and Wanderlei [Silva] fought the last time, that was fight of the year. How are you going to yellow card the fight of the year? How are you going to treat people that way? You know what I’m saying?

Spoiler: Rampage leavin´UFC...

Q: How’s post-UFC life in Bellator so far?

Rampage: The energy here is a lot better, and that’s what it’s all about, you being happy with doing your job. I haven’t fought for [Bellator] yet, but standing backstage, the people are genuinely nice. When I was in the UFC, people stopped being nice to me the day I fought Chuck. The backstage people, the people the fans will never meet, the people that make the UFC, the people that run the UFC are back in the back, so you will never meet them.

Those people can make your job hard. The UFC still has some good people that work for them, but overall, it was hard even showing up there and being around a bunch of fake people. In Bellator, everybody is really nice and genuine, and you can tell.

Spoiler: Rampage in Bellator, missin´Pride...

https://www.mmamania.com/2013/11/15...true-fighter-not-gameplanner-joey-beltran-mma

"It was the just the energy over in Pride too. It's a different energy: they all appreciate you and respect you. Over here in America, you lose one fight and you're a washed-up bum. The fans are disrespectful. It's a different energy. Over here, you can hear half the fans booing you when you walk out for a fight. Over in Japan, no one boos. Even if they're not a fan of yours, they won't say nothin'. They won't cheer, they won't say nothin' … they'll just keep quiet, so all you can hear is your own fans who like you and are cheering for you. Obviously, I was having more fun over in Japan because of the different energy when I came over here."


https://www.lowkickmma.com/rampage-jackson-always-thinking-retirement/

“It’s going to be like old times. I really do miss fighting (in Japan), and I was telling my coach like maybe a couple months ago, like man it would be nice to finish up my career fighting in Japan again. And he said yeah, that would be nice, fighting back there, so hopefully I can fight back there again.”

Doesnt seem really reliable, tbh...

I'm not convinced of this. I think he's an OG who's been around all the orgs others have been around & has trained & mingled with all the people of that day & if you've ever been in a gym just bullshitting with people, this kind of stuff gets talked about. There's really nothing to talk about except for the techniques or the sport itself, so you end up just gossiping really... so it's hard for me to feel that even if he didn't have direct knowledge that he wasn't hearing it in the circles he was running in.

This could be said to be circumstantial & secondary information, but I don't agree that he's unqualified to assess it. If we were talking about someone who wasn't even in the scene or even came along later, then fair enough.... but he was a player in the scene during the time we're talking about.... as early as double digits pride... So as much as it's unfair for me to say "yes for sure he knows" it's also unfair for you to demand that he doesn't.

hmmm...nah... Sonnen was not a player in that scene, was a rookie then, & only had 2 experiences in the JMMA scene, 2 bad ones to say the least... He´s not a relevant source of info. tbh, other legit players (from US: Hume, Mezger, Hendo, Ken, Frank, Tiger White, Menne...) are more relevant... those can talk because they did experience it.

I don't know what the commentary was because I don't speak the language but Chael lost... & at 16:03 Chael got called out for a nut shot that the opponent faked. It was clearly an upper thigh, nowhere near the nuts.

I don't feel that anything was self evident from watching this fight why Chael is Salty... unless he was deducted points for the nut shot that didn't happen.

Would you please explain your pov that this explains why Chael is dissing Asian sports.

Those 2 fights left him salty... One against Me, Myself & I (was called a draw, but poor Sonnen didnt like the decision), & the other one vs Yamamiya...

Even if you consider the 2nd nut shot controversial...

Spoiler: Sonnen vs Yamamiya - Nut Shots

1st one:



2nd one:

you have to acknowledge this technical sequence where he blatanly cheated [twice, at least] (quite surprisin´that he didnt receive the yellow there tbh...Japan is no Canada when it comes to rope grabbin´....):

Spoiler: Sonnen vs Yamamiya - Ropes

Okay... do we have a link so I can review the context for myself? It's not really good they're fixing brackets, but we can see avoidance granted to "special" fighters in other orgs... so I'm not going to hold that against Pride if that's all they did, but I'd like to see if that's all Page was referring to with a link to his comment.

While this is your pov, none of this disproves anything Page is saying.

Your pov that it's bull is just your pov... it's not a fact. That said, it's a fact that he said it, but that doesn't necessarily mean we believe it from my end any more than you can disbelieve it from your end. My point being that you're being very hypercritical about something you're speculating about.

Page was 11 pro fights into his "career" by this time after growing up fighting... so the commentary I heard about maybe he was so nervous that his stomach felt "fight altering heavy & sick" doesn't really add up. So something happened to his stomach & you're saying he's lying & making excuses... & I'm saying you don't know that & it may or may not be true, but you can't say that because you don't know & I can't say it's true because I don't know.

Lets try & do it this way: Out of Page's 14 losses... how many examples do you present where he made excuses? I know for sure he's lost & just straight up admitted he got his ass kicked. I'd have to do a specific study to find out how much he did that, but I'm just saying right now that I know he has just manned up & admitted it before. So if you're running a narrative on him being a "Chronic excuse maker" then lets lay it out & see how it shakes out. Lets get into it & break it down & lets get real about "excuses" he's made after a loss & see what's real here.



I don't know... but I know Page said it in frustration about Pride's control. Saying that he's making things up doesn't answer his gripe. I honestly don't know what's right or wrong, but it can't just be dismissed without a proper analysis. That's all I'm asking from you. Lets not just dismiss things or accept them willy nilly... lets get into it & see what we come up with.

hmm....yeahhh...dont know about you, but... we gave lil Disciple some serious time to come up with those 4 answers...
By the time he decides to man up, they´ll be bookin´dat 15th Jacaré vs Camozzi scrap...

I guess I´ll have to answer myself...

 

[HHJ]

[/SPOILER]

 

[gono btw]

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[HHJ]

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[gono btw]

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[HHJ]

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[gono btw]

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[HHJ]

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[gono btw]

and that ref would stand fighters up for no reason to try and help certain fighters out. Those claims I kind of believe

Already assessed here:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/

and the fact that Randleman had already participated in the controversial Sakuraba fight the year before...

Already assessed here:

https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-32-where´s-dat-suplex-monster.3954795/

Add to this the fact that Cro Cop had never even bothered with submission attempts before

Here, another MT/KB fighter facin´a high level grappler, in his 3rd year jus´like Crocop:

Spoiler: UFC Brazil

Ebenezer Braga would transition to Vale Tudo 3 yrs b4, on short notice, gettin´basic ground game thanks to Luta Livre Budokan Master João Ricardo, and progressively workin´on it...

Just throwing this out there - and this is coming from someone who's been a Cro Cop fan since before most Sherdoggers were Sherdoggers - but I've always been suspicious of Cro Cop/Randleman II. Insanely quick end from a guillotine that Randleman's head had basically popped out of before he even tapped. I can't imagine this coming from Cro Cop or his team, but Randleman getting some money to let Cro Cop erase that 2004 humiliation in preparation for a 2005 showdown with Fedor is not out of the realm of possibility if you ask me.


Look at that ugly ass guillotine, look at how Randleman is basically waiting to tap out rather than fight his way out of it. Hell, Cro Cop "finishes" the submission from his fucking knees, which means he wasn't even in a position to stop a TD if Randleman wanted to pull out a leg and get to side mount. Add to this the fact that Cro Cop had never even bothered with submission attempts before and the fact that Randleman had already participated in the controversial Sakuraba fight the year before...

I'm not saying it was definitely fixed - Randleman was always a head case and an enigma, going to a decision with Michiyoshi Ohara but then obliterating Ninja and Cro Cop, while for Cro Cop's part even though he was no submission wizard he was always extremely strong - but I've had my doubts about that fight for as long as I've been a fight fan.

We might have missed on a legit actor...

Spoiler

 

[Bullitt68]

Here, another MT/KB fighter facin´a high level grappler, in his 3rd year jus´like Crocop:

Spoiler: UFC Brazil

View attachment 794421 View attachment 794422 View attachment 794423

Ebenezer Braga would transition to Vale Tudo 3 yrs b4, on short notice, gettin´basic ground game thanks to Luta Livre Budokan Master João Ricardo, and progressively workin´on it...

Yes, I know Braga. And it goes the other way, too, with kickboxing noobs like Rampage and Big Daddy starching K-1 veterans in kickboxing bouts they had no business winning. These are talented athletes we're dealing with here for whom nothing is strictly speaking impossible. But that doesn't make it any less eyebrow-raising.

We might have missed on a legit actor...

Spoiler

He was the same way after the Waterman fight, which I also brought up as extremely odd.



Like I said: There's plenty of evidence, but of what? Occam's Razor says Randleman's just a knucklehead with a low fight IQ. If that were true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Nor, however, would I be surprised if he threw these fights for some reason(s).

 

[gono btw]

Yes, I know Braga. And it goes the other way, too, with kickboxing noobs like Rampage and Big Daddy starching K-1 veterans in kickboxing bouts they had no business winning. These are talented athletes we're dealing with here for whom nothing is strictly speaking impossible. But that doesn't make it any less eyebrow-raising.



He was the same way after the Waterman fight, which I also brought up as extremely odd.



Like I said: There's plenty of evidence, but of what? Occam's Razor says Randleman's just a knucklehead with a low fight IQ. If that were true, it wouldn't surprise me in the least. Nor, however, would I be surprised if he threw these fights for some reason(s).

ok. "low fight IQ" is a bit reductive tbh... I firmly believe that he was so passionate that he would forget the outcome of the fight... the 'pleasure' of gettin´those TDs, or showcasin´ his boxin´skills after trainin´with Emanuel Steward...

One fight I dismissed in the OP: Ogawa vs Big Daddy (Big Daddy confirmed he rejected the offer in his book)... is actually kindah tricky... Some ol´school NHB Analysts were still doubtin´this version back in the day...
This fight would require some serious deconstruction, almost frame by frame...

 

[HHJ]

ok. "low fight IQ" is a bit reductive tbh... I firmly believe that he was so passionate that he would forget the outcome of the fight... the 'pleasure' of gettin´those TDs, or showcasin´ his boxin´skills after trainin´with Emanuel Steward...

One fight I dismissed in the OP: Ogawa vs Big Daddy (Big Daddy confirmed he rejected the offer in his book)... is actually kindah tricky... Some ol´school NHB Analysts were still doubtin´this version back in the day...
This fight would require some serious deconstruction, almost frame by frame...

Im more inclined to believe that he just messes it up himself.

Look at the commentary in his fight with Murilo. A fight he won.
He was doing good in the standup,but he would just take him down and just lay in his guard. Quadros commented that "he just cant get rid of his wrestling mentality,even when he was winning standing up,I mean Coleman is yelling for him to keep it on the feet,and he's in his own little world" And then Coleman had heard what he said,and apparently nodded to him,cos Quadros referred to that as it happened.

 

[Myrddin Wild]

I appreciate this talk about Pride, I do see them as different than I did going into this convo. After you (Gonobtw) pointed out that most of the corruption happened in the early events I find myself still skeptical that they didn't continue to do it at some level... but I find that initial fuckery for the first dozen events excusable for the reasons you described.

It does sound like there was more fuckery later on... but I can't pinpoint enough specific sources & there's no way to know if it was pride doing it or just some individuals doing it. I find it likely that the mob based org of Pride was involved in fuckery, but I no longer feel like that is proven. So point well articulated in that regard.

What's your take on the Blue Cool-aide & all the drugs & shooting up in the bathroom & all that?

I feel like it's obvious now... that the UFC fighters were getting away with a lot more stuff pre-USADA than they are now... but at least the American commissions were doing some level of testing, where by contrast, it seems pretty clear that Pride not only didn't test them, they encouraged them taking performance enhancers. Do you accept those allegations?

So this is a good talk. I've adjusted my pov about it being "for sure" that Pride fixed fights, (after single digits) but I'm still not completely convinced it didn't happen later. Fool me once you know... it's hard to shake. I feel like I'm being a bit generous offering them the benefit of the doubt after they fooled me during the single digit events.

Fun fact, I was live at Kerr's UFC debut. It was my first live UFC event I attended. I was a fan after that, & I didn't notice any fixing in pride after that even though he was a part of the single digit pride's... so I do feel like not every fight of that time was fixed.

Per later allogations we got some speculative shady fights but nothing is proven. Chael was generalizing without specific examples... & Rampage was just guessing that someone poisoned him... so neither of their commentary can be held as gospel truth. That said... I"m not willing to completely dismiss it either though.

Per your point... I have to say I just don't think either can be dismissed completely for the reasons you're articulating. I hear what you're saying & I agree that I'd need more reports than just those 2 coming out to make a definitive statement on fight fixing, but that doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true. I just say that because you're trying to dismiss their statements & I'm just saying... "hold up... you haven't proved otherwise any more than I've proved they were accurate." So I'm not trying to here you make definitive statements that it didn't happen, any more than you're not trying to hear me making definitive statements that it did.

I´ve always got the fighters´back, but...

https://www.mmaweekly.com/rampage-tells-all-about-pride-ufc-and-wfa

Jackson: Pride is a good organization. They’ve got some of the best fighters in the world, but I feel like they didn’t promote me like I wanted to be promoted. Some of their employees treated me like dirt. I feel like if I’m going to be treated like dirt, I might as well get treated like dirt on my own dirt. That’s not the case with the WFA… from what I heard with the meetings, they plan on treating me very well. They promote me. They already got the ad campaign with my picture on it. They’re putting it on billboards. They’re talking about doing some big things, and that’s what going to better set up my career in the future because you saw me on King of Queens… I like that acting stuff. It’s easy. I plan on doing that after my fighting career is over… but I don’t think I could have a good fan base fighting over in Japan with them promoting all of their Japanese fighters, fighters like [Hidehiko] Yoshida and whatever that dude’s name is. The dude that [is like], “I’m a chicken who fights for a boring fight.” When I go down, and win or lose, my fights are the most exciting fights you’ll ever want to see. You know what I’m saying? Even though they’re Japanese, they’re cool and everything, but we have people buying the DVDs later watching the exciting fights, and I think I should be paid for putting my life out there on the line.


Q: Quinton, you talked about the WFA offering you more money than you made in Pride… are we talking significant? Are we talking 50,000 more… 100,000 more? What kind of pay increase did you receive from the WFA compared to Pride?

Jackson: I received a lot more because they gave me more money up-front. They gave me a signing bonus, and they gave me a part of pay-per-view. Cha-ching! And I’m not in any danger of getting the yellow card. The yellow card will take away money. This is worth a lot more money. I’m losing 70,000 dollars a year of tax benefit, but I’ll make it back up by not receiving yellow cards and pay-per-view money.

Q: How much money did you lose on yellow cards alone?

Jackson: Add it all up, I probably lost over 60 to 70 thousand dollars. I’m thinking you can round it off close to 100 grand on yellow cards.

MMAWeekly: One-hundred grand on yellow cards? Wow.

Jackson. Yeah. I’m trying to tell you… and when me and Wanderlei [Silva] fought the last time, that was fight of the year. How are you going to yellow card the fight of the year? How are you going to treat people that way? You know what I’m saying?
Q: How’s post-UFC life in Bellator so far?

Rampage: The energy here is a lot better, and that’s what it’s all about, you being happy with doing your job. I haven’t fought for [Bellator] yet, but standing backstage, the people are genuinely nice. When I was in the UFC, people stopped being nice to me the day I fought Chuck. The backstage people, the people the fans will never meet, the people that make the UFC, the people that run the UFC are back in the back, so you will never meet them.

Those people can make your job hard. The UFC still has some good people that work for them, but overall, it was hard even showing up there and being around a bunch of fake people. In Bellator, everybody is really nice and genuine, and you can tell.
https://www.mmamania.com/2013/11/15...true-fighter-not-gameplanner-joey-beltran-mma

"It was the just the energy over in Pride too. It's a different energy: they all appreciate you and respect you. Over here in America, you lose one fight and you're a washed-up bum. The fans are disrespectful. It's a different energy. Over here, you can hear half the fans booing you when you walk out for a fight. Over in Japan, no one boos. Even if they're not a fan of yours, they won't say nothin'. They won't cheer, they won't say nothin' … they'll just keep quiet, so all you can hear is your own fans who like you and are cheering for you. Obviously, I was having more fun over in Japan because of the different energy when I came over here."


https://www.lowkickmma.com/rampage-jackson-always-thinking-retirement/

“It’s going to be like old times. I really do miss fighting (in Japan), and I was telling my coach like maybe a couple months ago, like man it would be nice to finish up my career fighting in Japan again. And he said yeah, that would be nice, fighting back there, so hopefully I can fight back there again.”
Doesnt seem really reliable, tbh...

I think it's important to recognize that these interviews with Rampage is him talking about how much he missed the Japanese "FANS" (not the organization of Pride) & it was also an interview right before he was about to return to Japan for his retirement event. So of course he wants to speak highly of them. I think he meant it... but I'm just pointing out that this doesn't change the gripes he had about Pride... like you seem to be eluding too... because the reality is that he's talking about the fans he appreciated.

ie...

These quotes are Rampage saying:

1. he bitched about Pride's pay, merch, promotion & yellow cards... upon returning to Japan he spoke highly of the Japanese fans. So there are no contrasts in his pov there. I would go further to say that these seem like legitimate gripes.
   
2. He didn't seem to have any problems with that one WFA fight ...but he left when the UFC gave him the call
3. He didn't mention pay issues with UFC, but he felt like he wasn't respected nor promoted like he wanted to be after being gifted a title shot for his previous win over Chuck & then losing the title later. He's likely talking about after he lost the belt some UFC people backstage gave him the cold shoulder.
   
4. He doesn't seem to have any issues with Bellator... but his issue was that after a couple bad losses the fans wrote him off.
   
5. for his retirement fight, he gave the Japanese fans a shoutout & said how much he appreciates them. (not Pride... the fans is who he was shouting out to.)

so he never lost love for the japanese fans but he had valid complaints about the Pride organization & so he split. All good.

As far as the American fans writing him off... well yeah, a lot of the casualz do that as regularly as breathing... & I'm sure a lesser volume of fans also do that in Japan too... but there's a lot of real fans that don't.

For me, (& you know how dedicated I am to a fighter win or lose... as long as they're throwing down) I'd say it was him slowing down & looking sluggish that lost my attentions... not just that he was fighting lesser competition & then later losing to other older fighters out of their prime, but he didn't look as good either. I've always liked him but it started getting hard for me to watch. The sport was also evolving to where people who wanted to strictly strike were no longer being successful. Forest beat him with leg kicks & All of a sudden Rampage didn't want to take anyone down or slam anyone ya know. So I don't think he really has a gripe about the amount of his fans that started writing him off.

hmmm...nah... Sonnen was not a player in that scene, was a rookie then, & only had 2 experiences in the JMMA scene, 2 bad ones to say the least... He´s not a relevant source of info. tbh, other legit players (from US: Hume, Mezger, Hendo, Ken, Frank, Tiger White, Menne...)... those can talk because they did experience it.

You left Rampage out of that list.

I also don't think you're giving Sonnen credit for training with guys who were on the inside over there & hearing things... him & Hendo were pretty tight... so it's easy enough to see how word could gotten to him... but fair enough that he wasn't there in a big capacity & 2nd hand information isn't exactly proof... & so we can't take his words too much to heart unless we get more Pride fighters speaking of such things after the single digit Pride events.

Also regarding "not" having proof... is that Chael was generalizing & not bringing up specific examples with his allegationz... & so that also makes it difficult to put too much stock in what he said there... but that said... I still don't think it can be completely dismissed either.

you have to acknowledge this technical sequence where he blatanly cheated [twice, at least] (quite surprisin´that he didnt receive the yellow there tbh...Japan is no Canada when it comes to rope grabbin´....):

Those 2 fights left him salty... One against Me, Myself & I (was called a draw, but poor Sonnen didnt like the decision), & the other one vs Yamamiya...

Even if you consider the 2nd nut shot controversial...

1st one:

2nd one:

Those gifs are a little fast to be showing the 2nd nut kick properly, so I took a screen shot off of your provided video showing Sonnen's foot was no where near the nuts.



I don't think it's giving proper justice to the reality of that kick when you refer to it as "cheating" & it is certainly not "Blatant." I can see why Chael was salty about getting a yellow card for that kick... can't you? Serious question.

I've digressed in these convos on other subjects & so I'd like to see you give a little (a lot actually) on your pov about that so called..."Blatant" kick that he "Cheated" with. Please do. I think Yama had a great acting performance pretending he got kicked in the nuts & he should definitely receive some kind of acting guild reward & be honored for his pretend acting chops, but he sure as fook didn't get kicked in the nuts.

This is all academic though for our discussion, because whatever happened here doesn't prove or disprove anything Sonnen said about fight fixing. ie... him being salty isn't proof that he made that stuff about fight fixing up... & so the training partner to Hendo's statement stands as not being dis-proven...

...& therefore cannot be completely dismissed.

At the same time... (to your point) we cannot serve it as proof that it happened. I think we can agree on that much from each side of this discusion at least yeah?

 

[gono btw]

I appreciate this talk about Pride, I do see them as different than I did going into this convo. After you (Gonobtw) pointed out that most of the corruption happened in the early events I find myself still skeptical that they didn't continue to do it at some level... but I find that initial fuckery for the first dozen events excusable for the reasons you described.

It does sound like there was more fuckery later on... but I can't pinpoint enough specific sources & there's no way to know if it was pride doing it or just some individuals doing it. I find it likely that the mob based org of Pride was involved in fuckery, but I no longer feel like that is proven. So point well articulated in that regard.

What's your take on the Blue Cool-aide & all the drugs & shooting up in the bathroom & all that?

I feel like it's obvious now... that the UFC fighters were getting away with a lot more stuff pre-USADA than they are now... but at least the American commissions were doing some level of testing, where by contrast, it seems pretty clear that Pride not only didn't test them, they encouraged them taking performance enhancers. Do you accept those allegations?

So this is a good talk. I've adjusted my pov about it being "for sure" that Pride fixed fights, (after single digits) but I'm still not completely convinced it didn't happen later. Fool me once you know... it's hard to shake. I feel like I'm being a bit generous offering them the benefit of the doubt after they fooled me during the single digit events.

Fun fact, I was live at Kerr's UFC debut. It was my first live UFC event I attended. I was a fan after that, & I didn't notice any fixing in pride after that even though he was a part of the single digit pride's... so I do feel like not every fight of that time was fixed.

Per later allogations we got some speculative shady fights but nothing is proven. Chael was generalizing without specific examples... & Rampage was just guessing that someone poisoned him... so neither of their commentary can be held as gospel truth. That said... I"m not willing to completely dismiss it either though.

Per your point... I have to say I just don't think either can be dismissed completely for the reasons you're articulating. I hear what you're saying & I agree that I'd need more reports than just those 2 coming out to make a definitive statement on fight fixing, but that doesn't mean that what they're saying isn't true. I just say that because you're trying to dismiss their statements & I'm just saying... "hold up... you haven't proved otherwise any more than I've proved they were accurate." So I'm not trying to here you make definitive statements that it didn't happen.



I think it's important to recognize that these interviews with Rampage is him talking about how much he missed the Japanese "FANS" (not the organization of Pride) & it was also an interview right before he was about to return to Japan for his retirement event. So of course he wants to speak highly of them. I think he meant it... but I'm just pointing out that this doesn't change the gripes he had about Pride... like you seem to be eluding too... because the reality is that he's talking about the fans he appreciated.

ie...

These quotes are Rampage saying:

1. he bitched about Pride's pay, merch, promotion & yellow cards... upon returning to Japan he spoke highly of the Japanese fans. So there are no contrasts in his pov there. I would go further to say that these seem like legitimate gripes.
   
2. He didn't seem to have any problems with that one WFA fight ...but he left when the UFC gave him the call
3. He didn't mention pay issues with UFC, but he felt like he wasn't respected nor promoted like he wanted to be after being gifted a title shot for his previous win over Chuck & then losing the title later. He's likely talking about after he lost the belt some UFC people backstage gave him the cold shoulder.
   
4. He doesn't seem to have any issues with Bellator... but his issue was that after a couple bad losses the fans wrote him off.
   
5. for his retirement fight, he gave the Japanese fans a shoutout & said how much he appreciates them. (not Pride... the fans is who he was shouting out to.)

so he never lost love for the japanese fans but he had valid complaints about the Pride organization & so he split. All good.

As far as the American fans writing him off... well yeah, a lot of the casualz do that as regularly as breathing... & I'm sure a lesser volume of fans also do that in Japan too... but there's a lot of real fans that don't.

For me, I'd say it was him slowing down & looking sluggish that lost my attentions... not just that he was fighting lesser competition & then later losing to other older fighters out of their prime, but he didn't look as good either. I've always liked him but it started getting hard for me to watch. The sport was also evolving to where people who wanted to strictly strike were no longer being successful. Forest beat him with leg kicks & All of a sudden Rampage didn't want to take anyone down or slam anyone ya know. So I don't think he really has a gripe about the amount of his fans that started writing him off.


You left Rampage out of that list.

I also don't think you're giving Sonnen credit for training with guys who were on the inside over there & hearing things... him & Hendo were pretty tight... so it's easy enough to see how word could gotten to him... but fair enough that he wasn't there in a big capacity & 2nd hand information isn't exactly proof... & so we can't take his words too much to heart unless we get more Pride fighters speaking of such things after the single digit Pride events.

Also regarding "not" having proof is that Chael was generalizing & not bringing up specific examples with his allegationz... & so that also makes it difficult to put too much stock in what he said there... but that said... I still don't think it can be completely dismissed either.



Those gifs are a little fast to be showing the 2nd nut kick properly, so I took a screen shot off of your provided video showing Sonnen's foot was no where near the nuts.

View attachment 794448

I don't think it's giving proper justice to the reality of that kick when you refer to it as "cheating" & it is certainly not "Blatant." I can see why Chael was salty about getting a yellow card for that kick... can't you? Serious question.

I've digressed in these convos on other subjects & so I think it's time for you to alter your pov about that so called..."Blatant" kick that he "Cheated" with. Please do. I think Yama had a great acting performance pretending he got kicked in the nuts & he should definitely receive some kind of acting guild reward & be honored for his pretend acting chops, but he sure as fook didn't get kicked in the nuts.

This is all academic though for our discussion, because whatever happened here doesn't prove or disprove anything Sonnen said about fight fixing. ie... him being salty isn't proof that he made that stuff about fight fixing up... & so his statement stands as not being dis-proven & therefore cannot be completely dismissed. At the same time... we cannot serve it as proof that it happened. I think we can agree on that much at least yeah?

> ok I think you misread, I said blatant cheatin´, not about the 2 nut shots, but check again that technical sequence where he grabbed the rope twice. This should have warranted him that yellow card, especially in Japan.

> about PEDs: by any chance, do you know Baroni´s narrative about what happened to Pride fighters when they transitioned to UFC?

> About Rampage/Sonnen & interviews: I think that what they say durin´interviews should be put into perspective, they often try to manipulate to create somethin´.

> the legit beef he had with Pride: he sincerely believed that Pride was more interested in favourin´ Wand (which is rather dubious, some might argue that Rampage was more marketable...), & especially the stand-up calls by the Ref. in their fight [see the Decons]

> after the 1st ten events, which fights are considered [more or less] controversial:
- Takada vs Tamura
- Tamura vs Yoshida
- Yoshida vs Hoyce 1
- SAKU fights
- Shoji vs Stieblin´
- Matsui vs Pelé
- Gomi vs Azeredo

But the narratives are rather weak.

As I said in my last post:
One fight I dismissed in the OP: Ogawa vs Big Daddy (Big Daddy confirmed he rejected the offer in his book)... is actually kindah tricky... Some ol´school NHB Analysts were still doubtin´this version back in the day...
This fight would require some serious deconstruction, almost frame by frame...

In time, I think Im gonna have to drop a separate assessment about this specific fight, becaus the 4 answers + what I´ve already written, this is called a ... Decons...