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Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 25] - The Wild, Wild East...
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Thank you for your input on my question as well as to everyone else who participated in keeping the discussion going. I'm sensing another Decon thread.
Incentive makes sense career wise if you reckon they just wanted him as fodder for their superstars. He was pretty dormant typically once he got someone down, so it makes sense in that regard where they would be more interested in making him chum for the real action fighterz.
Boosting waterman up to then lose to Kosaka just prior to fighting Fedor makes sense for hyping the Kosaka/Fedor fight. It's kind of a round about way to do it, & I'm not saying it did happen, but I'm just commenting that there is some logic to it that some clever marketers could've worked out.
It could also be as simple as someone with deep pockets wanting to make a bet against him & so they paid him to lose for that reason. With the skid he went on after that it's not to hard to imagine that once he started making bank on the fixes, they kept him on the payroll to keep losing. or maybe that was just his time to go on a skid. I'm not saying it happened, I'm just saying the narrative would make sense & so I can't see just dismissing the idea because "there's nothing to gain."
The trickiest part of the discussion is that even if we do detect a work... there's no real way of telling where the money was coming from. Taking Brother Gono'z example below...
we can't just assume the money trail stopped at the managers. I find it more likely that someone with big pockets approached the manager & then the manager approached the fighter. This was in the single digit Pride events though, so I'm excusing them for any fuckery in those early days per your explanation that they didn't become a full on MMA org till double digit Pride's.
That said, I find it very likely that the mob tied organization certainly could've had a hand in it... and I feel it very likely that there was someone else involved other than just the managers. Maybe they weren't though. I'm just pointing out that we can't dismiss either possibility
So I appreciate this pov that the blatant works were mostly from the single digit pride events, but it's obviously still happening in double digits as well. We just can't say specifically that Pride is the one who was creating the fuckery, but it was definitely going on.
I don't recall any stories about fighters talking about works in the UFC. It's certainly been speculated by fans, but has anyone ever come out & said it happened? Chael is of the opinion it didn't happen in the UFC & he would be exposed to a lot more people in the UFC than Pride guys, so it's not as easy to dismiss his opinion on the UFC as it is for his Pride exposure. I'm not saying they're squeeky clean or not, I'm just saying that as someone who's been following it from the start... that I've never heard of it.
I'm not trying to be naive, but I do see a lot of validity to the idea that it would be too much for the UFC to risk.... & so they made a point to stay away from the practice. I mean, it just takes one work to invalidate the whole organization. So if they did do it, they'd have to do it through a mule so that if they got caught, they could pass blame & claim they knew nothing about it.
side note: The best way to pay someone to lose without being detected would be to tell them to go ahead & fight their heart out all they want... just don't do your specialty. I'm not saying DC would do such a thing but it would be like telling DC don't take Stipe down. or lets take Conor's fight vs. Khabib. Conor was diving back into the fooking clinch!! Certainly once Khabib wrapped him up he didn't have a choice, but there were times when Khabib wasn't even touching him... & Mac dove right teh fook back into the clinch. You know what I'm saying? Fight your heart out... but keep pressing forward like a dumbass & just don't don't avoid the clinch & you get paid. Not saying it happened... I'm just saying that would be an undetectable way to fix a fight.
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Both Rampage & Big Daddy denied this narrative about Pride as en entity [via his Prez Sakakibara] orchestratin´those offers.
And if you dig deeper, you´ll acknowledge that Pride, as an entity, actually did the opposite [towards SAKU G.]
In time, UFC had its share of fixed fights too & they are well-documented, even the only official one, historically.
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Again.... are these excuses or a reality? I don't think it's fair to go too far in either direction. It would be just as complacent to dismiss them as nothing more than excuses as it would be to take him fully at his word.
You dismiss Chael as not being an insider in Pride, & fair enough... but Page was there. Maybe he's just shitting on them for lying to him about his money & stealing it... or maybe what he's saying is the reality.
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Well, I see someone complainin´a lot about a company that gave him money, fame & opportunities when he was a nobody fightin´ in KOTC & Gladiator Challenge.
That other narrative of his [controversial stand-ups] was already assessed here:
https://forums.sherdog.com/threads/deconstructing-mma-myths-part-28-deaf-ears.3907767/
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I'm going to need links to these 4 things you're saying here. No offense but I always need to examine the source of everything so that I can determine the level of reliability for myself.
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hmmm...yeahh, Mighty Gono´s got the sources, always shamelessly loaded... but... letz play a lil game b4...
Hey,
Can you answer these 4 questions? They are directly related to your 'narrative' ITT...
Letz see if lil Disciple is indeed that loaded...
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None of these are a question. What the fuck are you talking about? Now that was question, with the right punctuation. Learn how to use it kiddo.
Rampage said they tried to influence how he fights. Thats well enough for me. Lets not pretend he did not purposely gas himself trying to throw Saku out of the ring royal rumble style.
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Repeatin´bro Myrddin´s 4 questions:
Watch him shamelessly Duckin´, tho...Oh SHIT
Shined the spotlight right on the guy
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lol... Where you at @lil Disciple
Meanwhile I'll speak to our 2nd thread of conversation we seem to have created.
Fair enough to mention that he got paid a lot... but that doesn't excuse them for ripping him off. It's like if I agree to work for someone for 2k per week & they pay me 1k & they tell me that 1k is a lot of money & I should appreciate it. lol... Where are they now that Rampage needs 2 new knees, a hip & a couple of elbows?
So we're not just brushing off the fact that he got ripped off due to the fact that they were partners with him in his career & offered him a big spotlight. He offered them his shine which made their product that much more interesting. An agreement is an agreement & should be honored. A broken agreement with excuses is still a broken agreement.
It's also not fair to dismiss his claims of fight fixing without evidence to the contrary. I digress that it's only him & Chaels words... (that I know of so far) speaking of corruption in Pride double digit events... & of coarse we have the visual evidence that we fans can speculate about... but these are the words of fighters who were there. Literally in the back rooms & making deals etc.... More-so on Page's part, but I'm not dismissing what Chael's saying either.
Chael's been around a lot during those dayz in all the orgs where those fighters have been & trained with & talks to people behind the scenes. I find it very unlikely that Chael is fabricating this. He's completely full of shit with his "Wes Lin gangster" Shtick... but this isn't him talking in character... this is him talking straight up what he feels is truth. He had to get the idea from somewhere. Your rebuttal is that he's disgruntled about bad decisions... but that's not a completely dismissive statement.
Again, I recognize I shouldn't buy completely into it... but I'm also saying that you should not be dismissing it so deliberately. I read your decon about it & I feel like you dismiss what he's saying too completely. Your dismissal isn't any more valid than anyone elses full acceptance of it. I think this exists in a floating state of somewhere in between atm until more evidence comes to light.
I did read your decon about "controversial standups."... & I think that's subjective enough that there isn't anything there... though the earpiece in the refs ear is kind of fucked.
I'm mainly interested in these 3 thingz Rampage said:
- "the tournaments were fixed",
- "someone poisoned me"
- "They were mad that I won the K1 fight."
Number 2 could've been anyone, but that doesn't dismiss the company either.
Number 3... lol... why teh fook would they be mad he won at K1? This indicates an alternate agenda
Again, it's just his words... & he is a disgruntled employee... so we can't take them as gospel... but we're not dismissing them either. That's all I'm really saying here. I've had a corrupt Pride in the back of my mind for a very long time & if we're going to remedy that... it's going to have to be compelling. The single digits pride point you made was very good & that's certainly where I got so biased... but I'm also recognizing some fuckery in double digits & so these things need to be addressed.
Our convo started when you thought I was being unreasonable for not giving "extra credit" to a potential GOAT... on my "GOAT list"... for an uninterupted run. I said "I"m giving them full credit for their wins over top competition... but I'm just not willing to give them "extra credit" due to the controversy of their organization working fights as well as a massive amount of padding on Fedor's record. You linked me here & the rest is history.
I'm glad you opened this discussion... I'm enjoying it... but I want to also recognize that I'm still not convinced & so I'm still not giving "extra" credit atm.
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Already answered. Missed it? Not surprised. Scroll 2 posts up you lil virgin.
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lol... Where you at @lil Disciple
Meanwhile I'll speak to our 2nd thread of conversation we seem to have created.
Fair enough to mention that he got paid a lot... but that doesn't excuse them for ripping him off. It's like if I agree to work for someone for 2k per week & they pay me 1k & they tell me that 1k is a lot of money & I should appreciate it. lol... Where are they now that Rampage needs 2 new knees, a hip & a couple of elbows?
So we're not just brushing off the fact that he got ripped off due to the fact that they were partners with him in his career & offered him a big spotlight. He offered them his shine which made their product that much more interesting. An agreement is an agreement & should be honored. A broken agreement with excuses is still a broken agreement.
It's also not fair to dismiss his claims of fight fixing without evidence to the contrary. I digress that it's only him & Chaels words... (that I know of so far) plus the visual evidence that we fans can speculate about... but these are the words of fighters who were there. Literally in the back rooms & making deals etc.... More-so on Page's part, but I'm not dismissing what Chael's saying either.
Chael's been around a lot during those dayz in all the orgs where those fighters have been & trained with & talks to people behind the scenes. I find it very unlikely that Chael is fabricating this. He's completely full of shit with his "Wes Lin gangster" Shtick... but this isn't him talking in character... this is him talking straight up what he feels is truth. He had to get the idea from somewhere. Your rebuttal is that he's disgruntled about bad decisions... but that's not a completely dismissive statement.
Again, I recognize I shouldn't buy completely into it... but I'm also saying that you should not be dismissing it so deliberately. I read your decon about it & I feel like you dismiss what he's saying to completely. Your dismissal isn't any more valid than anyone elses full acceptance of it. I think this exists in a floating state of somewhere in between atm until more evidence comes to light.
I did read your decon about "controversial standups."... & I think that's subjective enough that there isn't anything there... though the earpiece in the refs ear is kind of fucked.
I'm mainly interested in these 3 thingz Rampage said:
Number 1 especially indicate a company that has an overly vested interest in outcome... to the point of fixing fights.
- "the tournaments were fixed",
- "someone poisoned me"
- "They were mad that I won the K1" fight.
Number 2 could've been anyone, but that doesn't dismiss the company either.
Number 3... lol... why teh fook would they be mad he won at K1? This indicates an alternate agenda
Again, it's just his words... & he is a disgruntled employee... so we can't take them as gospel... but we're not dismissing them either. That's all I'm really saying here. I've had a corrupt Pride in the back of my mind for a very long time & if we're going to remedy that... it's going to have to be compelling. The single digits pride point you made was very good & that's certainly where I got so biased... but I'm also recognizing some fuckery in double digits & so these things need to be addressed.
Our convo started when you thought I was being unreasonable for not giving "extra credit" to a potential GOAT for his uninterupted run in my GOAT list. I said "I"m giving them full credit for their wins over top competition... but I'm just not willing to give them "extra credit" due to the controversy of their organization working fights. You linked me here & the rest is history.
In regards to that... as it stands... I gotta say that they still seem shady. it's certainly not to the level of the single digit Prides, but there's enough out there to question it & for me to not give "extra" credit for a long undefeated run in Pride... imo....
Sss´uupp, mate?
I will answer your 4 original questions once we know for sure lil Disciple
Right now, he´s still pretendin´to be dumb:
Anyway:
> about Sonnen: he´s still salty about his Pancrase 'run'.
Watch this fight & you will understand:
> Rampage´s 3 narratives:
- "the tournaments were fixed",
- "someone poisoned me"
- "They were mad that I won the K1" fight.
1- He´s not talkin´about the fights, he´s talkin´about the brackets.
2- Not much can be told about this shit. Not the 1st time or the last one that a fighter comes up with a wtf excuse.
Meanwhile, why would they poison him, particularly, & not Randleman,Crocop,Igor... etc... all the LHWs/HWs who were considered much more proven & dangerous than Rampage who was still initiatin´his career & unknown, from C-League MMA Org.?
3- Pride had a back&forth relationships with K1, sometimes cooperatin´, & then finally cuttin´those close ties (stole Crocop from K1). tbh: why would Pride be mad at him about winnin´against Cyril Abidi ? Abidi never even fought in Pride, was hardly an MMA fighter...
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I'm curious to see a link to this.
or at the least I'd like to hear your pov here if you don't have one.
