Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 23] - Cross-Trainin´ in MMA´s 'Dark Ages'...

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Valentijn Overeem:

His transition from MT to MMA:





Expandin´his ground game:







The only man who managed to submit Babalu ...

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Shooto in 1990

3 years before UFC 1




Here in this video from Japan in 1990, you will see very well rounded fighters. They are showing competent kickboxing, boxing combinations, low kicks and high kicks. They are executing wrestling takedowns and Judo throws. On the ground they are actively attacking submissions like armbars and kneebars.

There is even a demonstration half way through the video where a fighter shows an Americana from the Kesa Gatame position and then transitions to a straight armbar from same position. He also shows the audience a kneebar setup. He then goes over basic kickboxing and finishes with some thunderous kicks on the Thai pads.

Japan, like Russia and Brazil, was way ahead of the UFC and the American version of NHB/MMA.

While UFC was still promoting "style vs style" one dimensional fighters in the 1990's, these other countries already had an established sport in place where cross training and well roundedness was paramount.

 

[gono btw]

Shooto in 1990

3 years before UFC 1




Here in this video from Japan in 1990, you will see very well rounded fighters. They are showing competent kickboxing, boxing combinations, low kicks and high kicks. They are executing wrestling takedowns and Judo throws. On the ground they are actively attacking submissions like armbars and kneebars.

There is even a demonstration half way through the video where a fighter shows an Americana from the Kesa Gatame position and then transitions to a straight armbar from same position. He also shows the audience a kneebar setup. He then goes over basic kickboxing and finishes with some thunderous kicks on the Thai pads.

Japan, like Russia and Brazil, was way ahead of the UFC and the American version of NHB/MMA.

While UFC was still promoting "style vs style" one dimensional fighters in the 1990's, these other countries already had an established sport in place where cross training and well roundedness was paramount.

 

[gono btw]

Shooto in 1990

3 years before UFC 1




Here in this video from Japan in 1990, you will see very well rounded fighters. They are showing competent kickboxing, boxing combinations, low kicks and high kicks. They are executing wrestling takedowns and Judo throws. On the ground they are actively attacking submissions like armbars and kneebars.

There is even a demonstration half way through the video where a fighter shows an Americana from the Kesa Gatame position and then transitions to a straight armbar from same position. He also shows the audience a kneebar setup. He then goes over basic kickboxing and finishes with some thunderous kicks on the Thai pads.

Japan, like Russia and Brazil, was way ahead of the UFC and the American version of NHB/MMA.

While UFC was still promoting "style vs style" one dimensional fighters in the 1990's, these other countries already had an established sport in place where cross training and well roundedness was paramount.

And all this ground game with...boxing gloves...



Meanwhile, Manabu Yamada literally arlovski-ed poor Tomonori Ohara (@ 12m45)

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Tjerk Vermanen:

Another 'low profile' fighter...
Vermanen trained at Loeks Gym [KB].

Here, in his rookie fight:
was against Rick Bakker, @ Rings Holland - BOA (BATTLE OF AMSTELVEEN) [DEC 2, 1995]

Spoiler: Full Fight

 

[Bend NvR Break]

IIRC isn't different positions in bjj awarded points based off one's ability to strike one's opponent out of those positions?

I'm pretty sure I heard Danaher say that.

 

[gono btw]

I feel like Marco Ruas should have been mentioned somewhere

> Brazilian Vale Tudo scene:

King of The Streets:

View attachment 576187

Marco Huas interview right before UFC 7 in Black Belt magazine (1995)

BB: When did you start in the Martial Arts?

MR: 13. At first I practiced Judo.

BB: Judo?

MR: Yes, because I was a coward. My father took me to a Judo academy. I soon got to love the fighting arts and have done various things.

BB: What other Martial Arts did you try?

MR: From 16, Tae Kwon Do and Capoeira. From 18, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, and Luta Livre.

BB: Most Vale Tudo fighters know Jiu-Jitsu, but you know many other Martial Arts as well.

MR: Well, the Judo academy was managed by my father. It had classes of Capoeira, Tae Kwon Do, and so on. So I learned alot of Martial Arts. From my late teen years on, I have trained almost everyday in the Martial Arts.

BB: How successful have you been in your matches?

MR: I'm a little bit embarrased, because there have been so many that I can't remember them all.
In Muay Thai, I fought 16 bouts, won them all, and was Heavyweight champion in Brazil. In Capoeira I won the Heavyweight championship. In Boxing I won 8 out of 8 bouts, and was once Middleweight champion in Rio. I won the Wrestling championships in Brazil 5 or 6 times.

BB: Is it your dream to be a champion in evry kind of Martial Art?

MR: No, I just love various fighting arts. I do have another reason that I do so many kinds of Martial Arts. When I continue to win nobody wants to challenge me anymore! If I want to keep fighting I have to turn to a new Martial Art.

Spoiler: Full Interview

Marco Huas interview right before UFC 7 in Black Belt magazine (1995)

BB: When were you born?

MR: January 27, 1961. In Rio.

Spoiler

View attachment 576189

BB: When did you start in the Martial Arts?

MR: 13. At first I practiced Judo.

BB: Judo?

MR: Yes, because I was a coward. My father took me to a Judo academy. I soon got to love the fighting arts and have done various things.

BB: What other Martial Arts did you try?

MR: From 16, Tae Kwon Do and Capoeira. From 18, Muay Thai, Boxing, Wrestling, Jiu-Jitsu, and Luta Livre.

BB: Most Vale Tudo fighters know Jiu-Jitsu, but you know many other Martial Arts as well.

MR: Well, the Judo academy was managed by my father. It had classes of Capoeira, Tae Kwon Do, and so on. So I learned alot of Martial Arts. From my late teen years on, I have trained almost everyday in the Martial Arts.

BB: How successful have you been in your matches?

MR: I'm a little bit embarrased, because there have been so many that I can't remember them all. In Muay Thai, I fought 16 bouts, won them all, and was Heavyweight champion in Brazil. In Capoeira I won the Heavyweight championship. In Boxing I won 8 out of 8 bouts, and was once Middleweight champion in Rio. I won the Wrestling championships in Brazil 5 or 6 times.

BB: Is it your dream to be a champion in evry kind of Martial Art?

MR: No, I just love various fighting arts. I do have another reason that I do so many kinds of Martial Arts. When I continue to win nobody wants to challenge me anymore! If I want to keep fighting I have to turn to a new Martial Art.

BB: Wow.

MR: I do not want to participate in the Olympics. Actually I want to earn money by doing Vale Tudo matches, or kickboxing in Brazil. Unfortunately there few kickboxing events and I cannot take part in many Vale Tudo matches. That has been a problem.

BB: Why?

MR: Just 12 years ago, I competed in A Vale Tudo match with Pin Dukan, who was said to be the top student in the Carlson Gracie Dojo. I won. So after that bout, nobody wanted to fight with me.

BB: I have heard this before.

MR: So I then participated in Luta Livre events. Luta Livre is like free-style wrestling. It differs from Jiu-Jitsu, because you fight and train without a gi. The grappling technique is like Jiu-Jitsu, but since there is no gi, the skill is a little closer to wrestling. Another difference is that punching and kicking are trained in Luta Livre.

BB: Luta Livre has been called an enemy to Jiu-Jitsu.

MR: People who do these two Martial Arts completely hate each other. I do not care. I only want to be tougher. So I trained in Jiu-Jitsu for 3 years as well as Luta Livre. But that is a big problem in Brazil.

BB: Jiu-Jitsu fighters often say, "I would die for Jiu-Jitsu!". Don't you feel the same way?

MR: No. Essentially, inside of Jiu-Jitsu, Luta Livre, or anything, it must be decided whi is the best.

BB: You are the first Brazillian I have ever met to say such things.

MR: That's why it's so hard to find someone to fight!

BB: But you won in UFC 7.

MR: UFC is one step for me. For about 10 years no one would fight with me. Even the Gracie's would not fight me. So the UFC is the next step into the world of fighting.

BB: Who do you think is the toughest fighter in the UFC?

MR: I have got the tapes of UFC's 1-6. My trainer, Layton and I, have analyzed every fighters technique. Honestly, the level of fighters in UFC's 1-3 is very low. It wasn't until UFC 4 that the level was at last like Vale Tudo. The best? I think it's Shamrock.

BB: Shamrock? Not Royce?

MR: I do not think much of UFC 1-3. Though Royce is an excellent Jiu-Jitsu fighter, I think it would be hard for him to continue to win. But Shamrock can. I myself think that the body must be tough for a fighter to be tough. Shamrock has a tough body. Layton (Ruas' manager): Marco is a wonderfully gentle person. But look at his body. He can bench press 180kg easily. This is no ordinary Jiu-Jitsu fighter you know.

BB: That's right. Marco has a different kind of body from Rickson. He is flexible but stiff, lika a rubber ball, and he's very muscular.

Layton: When black people were forced to go to South America as slaves, 80% of them died from over work and poor living conditions. The 20% who lived must have been tough. The offspring of such men, must have it in their genes to excel. That is Marco's case. His body has superior genes. He trains all day.

BB: I see. You mean Marco naturally has a tough body?

Layton: And Marco knows all the Data on the UFC fighters. We have analyzed Shamrock's, Severn's, and everyone else's tactics. And he has been training with this analysis in mind. Look at this notebook. Here is the plotting of Marco's heart rate when he is using certain tactics. We are researching scientifically what Marco can be.

BB: That is great.

Layton: He knows the weakness of every UFC fighter. He will definately win at UFC 7.

BB: Wow. You have created a monster. But we're curious. Who's better, Marco or Rickson?

MR: I respect Rickson, but he's not perfect. Despite what some say.

Layton: It is my personal opinion that Marco and Rickson have equal grappling skills, with Rickson having perhaps an edge. But standing up, Marco is much better. Marco would have a good chance of winning.

BB: You mean that Marco plans to escape from grappling, and beat him with his standing skills?

MR: If we are even in grappling, than we must fight standing. When you are grappling there is a chance to stand up, if you refuse to be caught in a submission or chikehold. The losers to the Gracie's have so far been taken down. They could not stand up again. That is the problem. The Gracie's adhere to no time limits as they do not want their opponents to stand up again.

BB: I see. Thank you very much Marco.

An amusin´ story about those early days: while most of his coaches (even the Luta Livre ones) didnt like his cross-trainin´ 'philosophy', for 'ideological' reasons, one of them did approve it & gave him full support & advices:
Master Camisa... his Capoeira Master !

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

M. Wagemaker:

Another 'low profile' fighter...
Wagemaker trained at Shikara Gym [KB].

Spoiler

In the 1990s, this kind of reversals was more expected in the Japanese scene, realistically...

 

[HHJ]

> Dutch scene:

M. Wagemaker:

Another 'low profile' fighter...
Wagemaker trained at Shikara Gym [KB].

Spoiler

View attachment 643495

View attachment 643481 View attachment 643483

In the 1990s, this kind of reversals was more expected in the Japanese scene, realistically...

View attachment 643485 View attachment 643487
View attachment 643491 View attachment 643493

Its really insane. The platform,or weight class just wasnt quite there for some of these advanced fighters to shine.

 

[TeenageMutantLesnarTurtle]

The early UFCs werent really representative of MMA at the time, since it was more pushed along the whole "style vs style" lines as a selling point. There were plenty of guys around at that point elsewhere who had solid all round skills. And obviously it became common knowledge everywhere that you need to cross train long before 2000, probably 80% of MMAs skill development happened in the 90s.

 

[gono btw]

Its really insane. The platform,or weight class just wasnt quite there for some of these advanced fighters to shine.

Rings Japan could have signed him, but he looked a bit 'light', for sure... would have been tough @ OW there...

 

[Typrune Goatley]

Interview with Mark Kerr in 2006

https://www.mmaweekly.com/interview-with-mark-kerr

Here he talks about his training in 1997:

Damon Martin: You were one of the first transition fighters who focused on doing all aspects of the sport… you were a pioneer in the sport when it came to training for wrestling, submissions, boxing, etc. What do you attribute that to?

Mark Kerr: Well, first I think it’s a compliment and second I paid my dividends. In my second year of fighting, I was in a room with some of the very best out there. The room consisted of me, Marco Ruas, Bas Rutten, Pedro Rizzo, and Oleg Taktarov. Those were my training partners, and any given day if you went in there and you weren’t ready to train, you got your ass handed to you. It kind of forced you to evolve, because if you didn’t evolve every single day, you got an ass-whooping. You have to pay your dividends, and it helped me to transition to where I’m at now. I wouldn’t call myself a pioneer, I’d call myself a catalyst. Bruce Lee had it right. You have to take parts of everything to make one thing.

 

[gono btw]

Interview with Mark Kerr in 2006



Mark Kerr: The room consisted of me, Marco Ruas, Bas Rutten, Pedro Rizzo, and Oleg Taktarov.

GOAT Gym...

Spoiler

https://m-1global.com/en/pages/about.html

Mission M-1 Global
— conducting mixed martial arts tournament to promote MMA as a sport.
Brand M-1 for 20 years. Starting with small tournaments in 1997,the League of M-1 has grown into a global international organization. Among the international stars of MMA, which were and are under the banner of M-1 — Fedor Emelianenko Jeff Monson, Pedro Hizzo

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Chakuriki Gym [Thom Harinck] : "Chakuriki" > MA based on Kyokushin Karate, Boxing, Judo, JJ & Wrestling.

Some of its fighters [Rings Holland]:

Spoiler: Chakuriki Gym

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Dolman Gym : Chris Dolman, legit pioneer (1st non-Russian Sambo Champ) in cross-trainin´ > Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling
[see how his students Reem Bros, Bas, Yvel etc... transitioned to MMA]

Some of its fighters [Rings Holland]:

Spoiler: Dolman Gym [Part 1]

See Part 2 > Next Post...

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Dolman Gym : Chris Dolman, legit pioneer (1st non-Russian Sambo Champ) in cross-trainin´ > Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling
[see how his students Reem Bros, Bas, Yvel etc... transitioned to MMA]

Some of its fighters [Rings Holland]:

Spoiler: Dolman Gym - Part 2

 

[gono btw]

> Dutch scene:

Roy van de Wal :

Spoiler: Roy Van de Wal

A Grappler, he was coached by Remco [Judo/JJ] @ JECVTO (Japan Extreme Challenge Vale Tudo Open),
and seems he spent some time with them Gracies...

Spoiler

Here, showcasin´some boxin´skills against Kenichi Ogawa:

Spoiler: Full Fight

 

[JimmyFresno]

> Dutch scene:

Dolman Gym : Chris Dolman, legit pioneer (1st non-Russian Sambo Champ) in cross-trainin´ > Judo, Sambo, Kyokushin Karate, Greco-Roman Wrestling
[see how his students Reem Bros, Bas, Yvel etc... transitioned to MMA]

Some of its fighters [Rings Holland]:

Spoiler: Dolman Gym - Part 2

View attachment 646793 View attachment 646795 View attachment 646797 View attachment 646799 View attachment 646801 View attachment 646805 View attachment 646803

Love these threads TS!

One thing about Chris Dolman was his coach as Jon Bluming, one of the highest ranked Judoka and Kyokushin Karateka in the world.

Jon Bluming was himself coached by Don Dreager, a WW2 US Marine, who fell in love with Judo and other Japanese martial arts, so much so that he lived in Japan, learning at a time when the wounds from war were still fresh.

It was Don who got Bluming into weight training and took his Judo to another level.

Love these threads! Got Pride 10 on right now, watching Ken Shamrock vs Fujita!

 

[John makfresshi]

TS is a basement dwelling needledick with nothing else to do with his time























Like the rest of us

TS is the worst of the worst. I only came in this thread to bash anyone who takes his opinion as anything more than just him talking out his ass.

 

[gono btw]

Love these threads TS!

One thing about Chris Dolman was his coach as Jon Bluming, one of the highest ranked Judoka and Kyokushin Karateka in the world.

Jon Bluming was himself coached by Don Dreager, a WW2 US Marine, who fell in love with Judo and other Japanese martial arts, so much so that he lived in Japan, learning at a time when the wounds from war were still fresh.

It was Don who got Bluming into weight training and took his Judo to another level.

Love these threads! Got Pride 10 on right now, watching Ken Shamrock vs Fujita!

Thanx for your input, mate. Dolman is indeed an interestin´case, a key player in the European scene.

Slowly, we´re gonna get to the roots of this game...

Meanwhile...

Spoiler: Fujita...

...was for real.