Deconstructing MMA Myths... [Part 23] - Cross-Trainin´ in MMA´s 'Dark Ages'...

[Aegon Spengler]

Spoiler

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I think some of them jus´loved combat sports & were less 'ideologically' restrained, compared to GJJ disciples...
Meanwhile, Eastern European practitioners tended to spend more time in the Army too...

I know the army distributed Dempsey’s “how to fight tough” which was a cross-training manual. I wonder how far that document spread and if it had any influence outside the USA. I know it influenced Bruce Lee.

Randy Couture was in the army wasn’t he?

 

[gono btw]

I have that Palmer vs Danny Boy fight on an old DVD. I am pretty sure Palmer came into that fight like 16-0. He was a mean mofo. Super killer instinct. Dangerous striker but like you said, he was never afraid to mix it up on the ground. He would try submissions but also had devastating GNP and stomps.

Danny Boy was a good Muay Thai striker and wasn't known as much of a grappler, but he was able to survive the GNP and arm bar there. Once back on the feet, he delivered one of the most devastating head kick KO's in MMA history, giving ol' Jay R his first loss.

Jay R got caught slipping. He was undefeated and probably thought he had this fight in the bag. Can't believe he was crouched down like that with his hands down. It's also funny how Danny Boy just walks up to him so nonchalant and then throws the kick.

Jay was definitely the more evolved fighter, indeed...
But this shows that you can be more well-rounded and still [potentially] lose an hypothetical match-up with a 'nu-breed' fighter (when comparin´eras...)

 

[gono btw]

Martijn is a such an important figure in Dutch MMA history. A true Mixed Martial Artist and very respectable ambassador of combat sports in his home country and all around the world.

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(With K1 Kickboxer Stefan "Blitz" Leko on the left)

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From his bio on Wiki:

He started Jiu Jitsu in 1987 at the age of 13. He became a black belt at the age of 17 and started to add Kyokushinkai Karate to become a black belt just 4 years later.

On his quest to become a complete fighter he started with Brazilian jiu-jitsu at Remco Pardoel's gym in early 1995. Later that year, he started teaching BJJ and MMA together with his long time training partner Saron Debets. Approximately 1 year later, World Champion Thaiboxing and Vale Tudo fighter Jan Lomulder joined the classes and he started teaching him MMA while Jan taught him Thaiboxing.

Around the same time multiple times Dutch Champion Greco Roman Wrestling, Andy Jekel joined the team. While he got skilled in MMA, he taught Martijn all the details of Wrestling.

In 1996, he fought his first MMA competitions in Holland. In 1997, after 3 wins, he got invited with a whole team of Dutch fighters to compete in Tokyo against a Japanese Team fight in "Japan Extreme Challenge Vale Tudo Open”. He won that fight against Taro Obata by arm bar in the first round.

After he fought in Shooto Japan in 1999, The head promoter Mr. Sakamoto together with the president of the International Shooto Commission Mr Suzuki, asked Martijn to be the first representative of Shooto in Europe. He started to spread Shooto throughout Europe where up till date over 100 Shooto events are organized.

In 2000 Martijn fought Brazilian sensation "Jose Pele Landi-Jons". He lost that fight but it put him on the radar of Team Golden Glory, who asked him to join the team which was about to start. It was the first professional management team in Europe consisting of the following fighters: Semmy Schilt, Gilbert Yvel, Alistair Overeem, Valentijn Overeem, Heath Herring and Martijn de Jong. As a trainer of Golden Glory, he produced multiple World Champions like Alistair Overeem, Marloes Coenen and Siyar Bahadurzada.

In 2004 Marko Leisten (ADCC World Federation President), asked him to be the president of ADCC Holland. Annual events have been organized ever since.

Organizing Shooto events for some years, He wanted to bring the sport to another level and with the help of Team Golden Glory they founded "GLORY" (then called "Ultimate Glory") in 2006. It was a combination of Shooto / MMA fights with Kickboxing matches.

Bert van der Ryd joined the team in 2008 and together they organized "A Decade of Fights" in 2009, celebrating Golden Glory's 10 years’ anniversary. A strong group of financial investors saw a lot of potential in GLORY and Golden Glory and bought those two companies in 2012 to bring it to an absolute extremely high level! Today GLORY is the biggest and most prestigious kickboxing league in the world.

After the sale Martijn stayed two more years with GLORY as a consultant before he moved on and pursued his passion MMA again.

In 2014, he started to look for opportunities in the country where his father was born: Indonesia. He found out that there was a high demand of quality MMA training in Indonesia, however the facilities were not yet in place. In 2015, he made a deal with, the founder of Celebrity Fitness JJ Sweeney, which resulted in educating all the Personal Trainers of Celebrity Fitness in Indonesia, Malaysia and Singapore with the Tatsujin Training System. Up to date, close to 1,000 Personal Trainers have been educated in the Tatsujin Training System Mixed Martial Arts, Kickboxing and/or Self-Defense.

On July 17, 2017 the first official Tatsujin MMA Gym was opened in the South of Jakarta, Indonesia. The plan is to open many more in the future.

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He had a classic fight with the #1 fighter in the world in his weight category, Jose "Pele" Landi Johns in the year 2000. Pele was a feared striker, but surprised everyone by taking Martijn down early in that fight.


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Another interesting fact about his fight with Pele is the result was initially ruled a draw, but later changed to a win for Pele on points.

Not only was he very instrumental in bringing Shooto events to the Netherlands, he also had his hand in helping Glory Kickboxing start up. He also was a coach for the very successful Golden Glory team and can be seen in the corner of Alistair Overeem many times over.

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Today he is a very respected coach and is often traveling and teaching martial arts seminars all over the world

He is also a Co-Founder of the new Fittar Smart Mirror.

True legend

Spoiler: Pelé vs De Jong

Spoiler: Meanwhile...

With all these pics, no more doubts about Typrune´s true identity...

 

[Typrune Goatley]

From MMAweekly interview on August 2, 2002

http://web.archive.org/web/20020808024833fw_/http://mmaweekly.com/interviews/iv_FrankShamrock2.htm

Ryan Bennett: (laughs) It's on now. You of course have your gym going strong and there is a guy at your gym I think is the next young gun and that's Richard Crunkleton. What do you like about him and his game?


Frank Shamrock: Crunkleton or "Cletus" as we call him. I like everything that kid does, he throws bombs, he kicks, he can wrestle, he throws well, he knows submissions. He does everything. He's a young kid. He will go to the top. He will be a superstar. He is the third generation of athlete. There was a generation before me. I was the second generation. He is truly the third generation, the COMPLETE mixed martial arts fighter, that can do anything and everything. He's on the WEC show as well.

 

[Typrune Goatley]

MMAweekly interview with Chuck Liddell by Ryan Bennett on May 20, 2002

http://web.archive.org/web/20020808024833fw_/http://mmaweekly.com/interviews/iv_chuckliddell_2.htm

Ryan Bennett: You mentioned his ground game. You were a guy who wrestled in Division I in the PAC-10 for Cal Poly. How come you don't show more ground game with your wrestling background?

Chuck Liddell: It's not just wrestling. I've been training with John Lewis on the ground for the past four or five years. I love the submission game, I love the ground game. But my thing is striking. I love to strike. I love to stand there and exchange with guys. I like to see how much they can take and I love to stand there and trade with guys.

 

[gono btw]

From MMAweekly interview on August 2, 2002

http://web.archive.org/web/20020808024833fw_/http://mmaweekly.com/interviews/iv_FrankShamrock2.htm

Ryan Bennett: (laughs) It's on now. You of course have your gym going strong and there is a guy at your gym I think is the next young gun and that's Richard Crunkleton. What do you like about him and his game?


Frank Shamrock: Crunkleton or "Cletus" as we call him. I like everything that kid does, he throws bombs, he kicks, he can wrestle, he throws well, he knows submissions. He does everything. He's a young kid. He will go to the top. He will be a superstar. He is the third generation of athlete. There was a generation before me. I was the second generation. He is truly the third generation, the COMPLETE mixed martial arts fighter, that can do anything and everything. He's on the WEC show as well.

Richard Crunkleton... Mainly WEC... 2 bad they didnt draft him in Pride Bushido...

SAKU vs Frank.. 100K people Stadium...

 

[gono btw]

> Brazilian Vale Tudo scene:

Here, an interestin´ interview about a specific era [1960s] of the Brazilian Vale Tudo scene: TV Ringue Torre, where several ATGs competed (Ivan Gomes, Euclides Pereira...)

Spoiler: Original Interview

JORNAL DO COMMERCIO - É possível afirmar que o TV Ringue Torre é um dos precursores do vale-tudo no Brasil?

FÁBIO QUIO Takao - "Com certeza. Outros programas já haviam sido transmitidos antes em canais do RJ e SP, mas acredito o TV Ringue Torre teve duas contribuições importantíssimas para evolução do esporte. A primeira foi dar oportunidade para vários talentos do Norte/Nordeste e fomentar a criação de novas academias fora do eixo Rio-São Paulo. A outra contribuição que pouquíssimas pessoas sabem é que o programa incentivou a formação de atletas especialistas em várias artes marciais. Além do jiu-jítsu Gracie, alguns lutadores praticavam judô, Boxe, Luta Livre e Capoeira. Era o embrião do que ficou conhecido mais tarde como "cross training", no qual o lutador se dedica a treinar várias modalidades."

JORNAL DO COMMERCIO [newspaper from Recife]- "Is it possible to say that TV Ringue Torre is one of Vale Tudo´s precursor in Brazil?

FÁBIO QUIO Takao [MMA writer]: "For sure. Other TV programs were already existin´ in Rio de Janeiro & São Paulo, but I think that TV Ringue Torre had 2 major contributions to this sport´s evolution.
The 1st one was to give several talented fighters from the North/North-East region an opportunity and create new gyms outside the Rio de Janeiro-São Paulo axis.
The other [rather unknown] contribution was that the TV program helped athletes to focus on various MAs.
Besides GJJ, some fighters were already practicin´ Judo, Boxin´, Luta Livre & Capoeira.
This was the very beginnin´ of what would be called "cross-trainin´" later, ie a fighter trainin´various MAs."


Interestin´ Note: TV Ringue´s Fight Configuration was similar to Pancrase´s [only palmstrikes].

 

[Pequeño Corey]

I don’t get why so many people shittin’ on @gono btw. Thread is educational.

 

[Jorge Luis Borges]

If you watch the earlier UFC's and PrideFC's it is pretty clear the level of cross-training wasn't anywhere near what it is today.

I mean yes, it occurred in the past. Even Jack Dempsey cross trained back in the 20's. He wrote a book about it.

Spoiler

But that doesn't mean it was a fully realized, widespread phenomenon in NHB/UFC/Pride. Fighters were still mostly one dimensional. Frank Shamrock took it to a higher level, incorporating world class athletic discipline with grappling and striking. He mixed it all together in a way that hadn't been seen before and forced the next stage of MMA's evolution.

Solid response to a solid OP.

It's worth noting that cross training was happening quite early, but Shamrock still stands out as the guy who pushed it far enough that everyone else was influenced. I think sometimes we have too much focus on who was first rather than who had the bigger impact.

 

[gono btw]

Love these threads TS!

One thing about Chris Dolman was his coach as Jon Bluming, one of the highest ranked Judoka and Kyokushin Karateka in the world.

Jon Bluming was himself coached by Don Dreager, a WW2 US Marine, who fell in love with Judo and other Japanese martial arts, so much so that he lived in Japan, learning at a time when the wounds from war were still fresh.

It was Don who got Bluming into weight training and took his Judo to another level.

Love these threads! Got Pride 10 on right now, watching Ken Shamrock vs Fujita!

Banned, 2 bad...

Anyway: Jon Blumin´did get involved with Rings, & actually served as a Judge too (he´s the one who scored it for Babalu in that 1st Tamura vs Babalu fight).

Here, @ the Nog vs Volk Han fight:

Spoiler: Jon Blumin´

 

[the big marmot]

ivan gomes and euclides pereira where really some studs for their time, before peds and everything

Gomes used to imobilize bulls with his bare hands, he died in a farm accident

 

[Pequeño Corey]

@gono btw , other than Vale Tudo in Brazil, are there any other MMA progenitors that pre-date UFC 1? Could be a promotion, or even a tournament.

Someone had asked me recently if MMA was around before UFC, and VT was the only example I could think of.


Thx

 

[pankrat]

@gono btw , other than Vale Tudo in Brazil, are there any other MMA progenitors that pre-date UFC 1? Could be a promotion, or even a tournament.

Someone had asked me recently if MMA was around before UFC, and VT was the only example I could think of.


Thx

Shooto is the first MMA promotion in history, from back in the late 80s

 

[pankrat]

Solid response to a solid OP.

It's worth noting that cross training was happening quite early, but Shamrock still stands out as the guy who pushed it far enough that everyone else was influenced. I think sometimes we have too much focus on who was first rather than who had the bigger impact.

I understand your theory about the bigger impact from an American standpoint, but I'd say there were already very well-rounded and well-conditioned fighters in Brazil, Japan and even Russia back in Frank's heyday

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Shooto is the first MMA promotion in history, from back in the late 80s

Ahhh yes I’ve heard of Shooto. Thanks for that.

 

[pankrat]

Ahhh yes I’ve heard of Shooto. Thanks for that.

Noboru Asahi is probably who stands out the most among the first generation of Shooto fighters.
All-around legit skills, very good transitions and well-conditioned, pretty much a modern fighter already in 1990.

 

[Deleted member 110072]

Solid response to a solid OP.

It's worth noting that cross training was happening quite early, but Shamrock still stands out as the guy who pushed it far enough that everyone else was influenced. I think sometimes we have too much focus on who was first rather than who had the bigger impact.

I do think the point in the OP that Pancrase|(and then RINGS) banning GnP might have been a long term positive. I mean GnP did obviously become an important part of the sport with a high degree of skill involved but earlier in its history there was arguably a tendancy for a "grinding" style to dominate and potentially limit the devolpment of a more rounded and fluid game.

It does seem to be in Pancrase and Rings that the idea of really proactive sub grappling developed, even with Sakuraba in Pride you could argue that fights like the Gracies and Newton were very limited in their GNP.

You then reached a stage were these more advanced sub grapplers could shift back into "full" MMA and get the best of "grinders" forcing the sport as a whole to adopt higher level training.

 

[gono btw]

@gono btw , other than Vale Tudo in Brazil, are there any other MMA progenitors that pre-date UFC 1? Could be a promotion, or even a tournament.

Someone had asked me recently if MMA was around before UFC, and VT was the only example I could think of.


Thx

Check on the 6th page ITT, about Shooto.

If you´re interested, Japan also had:

Daido-Juku Kudo [proto-MMA] : Tournaments showcasin´ a mix of Judo, Karate & Submission Game [1981]

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Noboru Asahi is probably who stands out the most among the first generation of Shooto fighters.
All-around legit skills, very good transitions and well-conditioned, pretty much a modern fighter already in 1990.

Yes, thanks to your first response, I’m currently stuck in a youtube shooto rabbit hole. This guy came up more than a few times. I’m still blown away by the well rounded skill set these guys had. They’re throwing leg kicks and rolling for heel hooks years before UFC 1 happened.

I always heard the Gracies intentionally did not invite these guys to compete in early UFCs, but I just thought it was Gracie haters. It’s pretty obvious that some of these guys would have pushed Royce’s shit in.

 

[Pequeño Corey]

Check on the 6th page ITT, about Shooto.

If you´re interested, Japan also had:

Daido-Juku Kudo [proto-MMA] : Tournaments showcasin´ a mix of Judo, Karate & Submission Game [1981]

Thanks bro. I’m getting a proper education this morning.