Dagestani/Chechens vs BJJ

[shunyata]

This is tough to quantify and I don't know if it will ever be conclusively proven one way or another, but I've always figured techniques trained from a young age become second nature and don't need to be rationalized in the moment. Kids that came up training Judo, wrestling or BJJ for example, often can't explain exactly what they're doing to set up moves or how they're able to hit them so smoothly. Of course there's survivorship bias because the kids that stick with any style are more often than not, the kids who experienced early success with it.

But I've now trained grappling (wrestling, Judo, BJJ) coming up on 14 years (first 8 and last 5 being contiguous) and even though I collectively have more mat hours than the kid prodigies I've trained around, I'm nowhere near as relaxed or slick as they are.

I do remember a judo coach in childhood saying we should learn a technique and drill it until you forget it, until it just happens without thinking.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I do remember a judo coach in childhood saying we should learn a technique and drill it until you forget it, until it just happens without thinking.

For sure, but this only builds mechanical proficiency in the technique. Hitting it live vs. a resisting opponent requires something more and the ability to read and react to your opponent. In Judo terms, drilling gets you to the fit ins/uchi komi stage of proficiency but consistently hitting that throw in randori/shiai requires you to dance smoothly with an unwilling dance partner. The latter is what I've always struggled with. I've drilled certain techniques ad nauseum (my tokui waza is hane goshi) and I can hit it without even thinking vs. a compliant or inexperienced uke. But vs. an opponent who knows how to defend TDs, I look like f'ing Clay Guida on crack.

 

[GKY]

For sure, but this only builds mechanical proficiency in the technique. Hitting it live vs. a resisting opponent requires something more and the ability to read and react to your opponent. In Judo terms, drilling gets you to the fit ins/uchi komi stage of proficiency but consistently hitting that throw in randori/shiai requires you to dance smoothly with an unwilling dance partner. The latter is what I've always struggled with. I've drilled certain techniques ad nauseum (my tokui waza is hane goshi) and I can hit it without even thinking vs. a compliant uke. But vs. an opponent who knows how to defend TDs, I look like f'ing Clay Guida on crack.

My advice would be to get a haircut.

 

[EndlessCritic]

Is it just me or are these guys like Khamzat, Khabib, Makhachev just dominating every BJJ black belt thrown at them. Completely shutting down everyone's high level BJJ games and dominating them on the ground.

I mean do BJJ specialists have any answer for these guys?

Not sure if trolling.

Khabib's teammate Tagir Ulanbekov fought a BJJ specialist on the opening fight of UFC 267 in Allan Nascimento. Ulanbekov struggled immensely on the ground with the BJJ specialist and barely escaped with a split decision. Did you really make this thread without watching that fight? (Which, by the way, everyone should watch, because it was a fantastic fight.)

Otherwise, an excellent discussion in this thread.

 

[yetanother]

For sure, but this only builds mechanical proficiency in the technique. Hitting it live vs. a resisting opponent requires something more and the ability to read and react to your opponent. In Judo terms, drilling gets you to the fit ins/uchi komi stage of proficiency but consistently hitting that throw in randori/shiai requires you to dance smoothly with an unwilling dance partner. The latter is what I've always struggled with. I've drilled certain techniques ad nauseum (my tokui waza is hane goshi) and I can hit it without even thinking vs. a compliant or inexperienced uke. But vs. an opponent who knows how to defend TDs, I look like f'ing Clay Guida on crack.

Are your setups legit?
In bjj Mikey is one of the slickest dudes, but a lot of the time he isn't relying on some talent but has figured out what berimbolo variant you should be doing for each reaction and drilled in to perfection.
OTOH propbly the most flowy grappler is a girl who double golden the UWW world championship grappling this year and won euros at purple.
She is crazy flexible to the point that she used to be able to touch her crotch with her face (literally rolled into a ball when trying to figure how to berimbolo). Also Harley Quinn levels of crazy but not sure it's related.

 

[shunyata]

Brazilian jiu jitsu fighter wins the 205 belt. Crickets.

A Russian expat wrestler training in Sweden and a Russian Combat Sambo fighter training out of AKA both of whom crosstrain bjj heavily do well, creeping into the top 10 rankings for the former and title contention for the latter in different divisions.

"Guys, wrap it up, bjj is dead."

Meanwhile Khamzat is still crosstraining jiu jitsu.


Bad jiu jitsu players bitch about wrestlers in the gym.

Good jiu jitsu players FUCKING LOVE having training partners like these guys in your gym.

And the trick is, these guys with all of their experience are STILL furiously cross training jiu jitsu / submission grappling.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Are your setups legit?
In bjj Mikey is one of the slickest dudes, but a lot of the time he isn't relying on some talent but has figured out what berimbolo variant you should be doing for each reaction and drilled in to perfection.
OTOH propbly the most flowy grappler is a girl who double golden the UWW world championship grappling this year and won euros at purple.
She is crazy flexible to the point that she used to be able to touch her crotch with her face (literally rolled into a ball when trying to figure how to berimbolo). Also Harley Quinn levels of crazy but not sure it's related.

Musumeci is a guy whose game I have zero chance of emulating but I know what you mean. My setups have always been crap and as a younger guy I built my game around minimizing the margin for error. So rather than shooting in, I would play defense on the feet. Mostly upper body takedowns from tie ups and on the mat, scrambling for top position, pressure passing and grinding. Under Judo rules if I lost the scramble for top position on the mat, I'd go closed guard or if I had to, lockdown HG while fishing for a cross collar choke or arm triangle from the bottom. Now in BJJ I play knee shield HG and fish for a kimura trap or coyote guard.

Some guys have a knack for timing moves and I've trained with many of them over the years but that's an aspect of athleticism I've always lacked.

 

[TheMaster]

I think it's no coincidence these guys come from a region where freestyle wrestling and Judo/Sambo are popular and most them trained all of these from a young age. So they're starting off in MMA skilled in all phases of grappling including TDs, top control, guard work and subs. A cross-trained background produces more complete grapplers than any individual style alone, which is more common.

I think we already know the answer

High level wrestling/Judo + submissions >>> BJJ + wrestling/Judo

Why? Body control is the fundamental grappling skill and base. If you have that at an elite level, your ceiling is higher when you add subs.

Learning subs first is the shortcut but in the long run is not the best way.

 

[Mulletenthusiast]

Having a estamplished wrestling situation with a ton of high level training partners and skilled coaches builds is what matters. In a culture where money has extreme value (buys tons of respect for your family), mma is a huge oppurtunity for wrestlers. Also there is a huge diference from being poor, rough and disciplined and poor, rough and wild and degenerate (like a lot of Brazillians from the favelas).

Yeah, man. I mean, they don't drink and don't really even have sex/masturbation. I mean, Khabib and islam (as exemple) married with 29 and 30 respectively. That means that they never had the gentle women's touch until them. All that discipline and sobriety must make some monster fighters.

 

[Ishaq]

Not sure if trolling.

Khabib's teammate Tagir Ulanbekov fought a BJJ specialist on the opening fight of UFC 267 in Allan Nascimento. Ulanbekov struggled immensely on the ground with the BJJ specialist and barely escaped with a split decision. Did you really make this thread without watching that fight? (Which, by the way, everyone should watch, because it was a fantastic fight.)

Otherwise, an excellent discussion in this thread.

Sorry bro, I watched only the main card. Also never heard of this Ulanbekov guy before.

But even you cannot deny that Islam, Khabib, Khamzat are running through Black belts and they're winning not simply by keeping the fight standing but by taking it to the ground.

 

[Seefoo]

Sorry bro, I watched only the main card. Also never heard of this Ulanbekov guy before.

But even you cannot deny that Islam, Khabib, Khamzat are running through Black belts and they're winning not simply by keeping the fight standing but by taking it to the ground.

Uh, Khabib ran through everyone, including Uber-striker McGregor. He retired undefeated, so why are we just pointing out his wins against guys who trained in Bjj?

Khabib also trained in Bjj btw.

 

[yetanother]

Musumeci is a guy whose game I have zero chance of emulating but I know what you mean. My setups have always been crap and as a younger guy I built my game around minimizing the margin for error. So rather than shooting in, I would play defense on the feet. Mostly upper body takedowns from tie ups and on the mat, scrambling for top position, pressure passing and grinding. Under Judo rules if I lost the scramble for top position on the mat, I'd go closed guard or if I had to, lockdown HG while fishing for a cross collar choke or arm triangle from the bottom. Now in BJJ I play knee shield HG and fish for a kimura trap or coyote guard.

Some guys have a knack for timing moves and I've trained with many of them over the years but that's an aspect of athleticism I've always lacked.

I play coyote myself a lot (swept Tommy Langaker from it in a competition this year) and it's doesn't mix that well with Musumeci stuff.
Re setups the idea is that there are right times for things and you can either do it on instinct or learn in what circumstance you should be doing it.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I play coyote myself a lot (swept Tommy Langaker from it in a competition this year) and it's doesn't mix that well with Musumeci stuff.
Re setups the idea is that there are right times for things and you can either do it on instinct or learn in what circumstance you should be doing it.

Yeah a lot of takedown mechanics from clinch are instinctive to me now, but it's taken years for some of that to click. On the mat I still defer to wrestling style top control and pressure passing but playing guard is the part of my game I most suck at - it's not intuitive to me at all and through trial and error I've winnowed it down to the three things above, because I can still hit them even if my timing is a little off.

 

[Ishaq]

Uh, Khabib ran through everyone, including Uber-striker McGregor. He retired undefeated, so why are we just pointing out his wins against guys who trained in Bjj?

Khabib also trained in Bjj btw.

The reason I point it out is because he beat BJJ guys on the ground/in the grappling. That is where BJJ guys supposed to be dominant.

When he outstrikes Edson Barboza in a standup fight then I would point that out too.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

I think the only people, surprised by the success of the Caucasus mountains guys, are the ones who are not familiar with the grappling styles they have trained, since childhood.

They (its the same in my native Bulgaria) start with freestyle wrestling, practiced in countryside environment (meaning, while herding sheeps, or doing farm work, similar to Iowa's wrestlers).

The most successful flow into the local government sports gym.

Now, here is the difference:

Point 1:
They get professional coaching advises by a person who was successful in the sport AND got a national sports academy education in coaching, in his respective style.

Point 2:
Those gyms are usually registered with the national Judo, Sambo and Wrestling federations, meaning they compete in all 3.

Eventually, the natural selection will direct some in one specific sport, or they will end up using their skills in a sport like MMA.

And now we see those same guys, upgrading their already existing game (in terms of grappling, great takedowns, followed by heavy top pressure and pins), to the modern aspects of MMA.

As everyone in the sport (MMA) has said, MMA grappling is quite different from pure grappling.

I think its strange to have this conversation in 2021, but its widely known, that a guy who started grappling as a child, will most probably be dominating MMA, if he follows the path, win some medals and is constantly upgrading his game.

I dont see why we are talking about BJJ as a separated entity of MIXED Martial Arts.

Its just one of the aspects.

And it really depends on many factors.

Here is one:
Jiujitsu is played on open space area, with restarts, if the contestants leave the area.

MMA is played in closed area, without breaks (almost).
The area is 3D, meaning one can be pinned and his game neutralised in VERTICAL position.

BJJ has no such gameplay.

 

[Coconutwater]

Mat hours are critical but some folks oversell it as the be all end all without addressing the quality and style of instruction. For example in the U.S. it's common to teach the "hard" style of wrestling i.e. go hard all the time. In HS wrestling we literally never had a light practice day - it was always the coaches yelling at us to go harder and telling us if the technique wasn't working, we "didn't want it" enough. It was fucking brutal and kids were throwing up from grinding for hours and hours.

But I now know that isn't the best way to become good at grappling. In that environment kids like me who weren't natural grapplers learned to force everything. That works against low level guys If you train to be strong and tough enough but is a losing proposition vs. better guys. The only kids who became good enough to wrestle past HS were the ones who were natural athletes and could pick up moves and flow without being taught how to. DC has talked about this in comparing U.S. wrestling practices vs. former Soviet style.

Some BJJ schools have the opposite issue. They only learn how to flow but not how to deal with strong athletic grinders. A well-rounded grappler has to be able to do both.

Kids that trained Judo from a young age seem to have this balance down. IME they're just way smoother with their kuzushi and execution than guys who started as adults, even with years of training. If it doesn't come naturally to you, I can attest that learning to flow as an adult is very hard.

I think the Dagestani and Chechens have two things in their favor, the style of grappling focuses on takedown and control, submissions are a bonus. They also practice with intensity, like someone said, the grinding style of practice is something that is not rewarded in BJJ culture where finesse and smoothness are prized. The thing is, wrestlers and Sambo guys are fluid enough and athletic/tough enough to break their opponents and manhandle them, something BJJ guys are not as good at in MMA, the minute strikes are included and where winning a round, however rough and tumble, matters most.

 

[Ishaq]

I think the Dagestani and Chechens have two things in their favor, the style of grappling focuses on takedown and control, submissions are a bonus. They also practice with intensity, like someone said, the grinding style of practice is something that is not rewarded in BJJ culture where finesse and smoothness are prized. The thing is, wrestlers and Sambo guys are fluid enough and athletic/tough enough to break their opponents and manhandle them, something BJJ guys are not as good at in MMA, the minute strikes are included and where winning a round, however rough and tumble, matters most.

So how can we reform BJJ to become a more effective martial art for a fighting scenario.

 

[Coconutwater]

So how can we reform BJJ to become a more effective martial art for a fighting scenario.

You would have to redo the entire curriculum. Tons of BJJ guys have "Judo black belts" but these black belts are more honorary than legit, IMHO. Few can execute throws and worse, sweeps/trips like a true judoka. Rodolfo and Buchecha are not the norm and even then, have limited takedown skills against a true wrestler/sambo specialist.

Incorporate more strikes while grappling, this would force BJJ guys to recognize that guard work is needed but that top control is more crucial. EBI should be the norm, not the exception in BJJ competition. And completely eliminate guard pulling since it doesn't reinforce the importance of takedowns. I know people pull guard in MMA, but Jesus, master takedowns.

 

[Grappler111]

There are different level of wrestling. See Ali Isaev an international level freestyle wrestler defeat multi time combat sambo world champions and ncaa level folkstyle wrestlers...

 

[yetanother]

You would have to redo the entire curriculum. Tons of BJJ guys have "Judo black belts" but these black belts are more honorary than legit, IMHO. Few can execute throws and worse, sweeps/trips like a true judoka. Rodolfo and Buchecha are not the norm and even then, have limited takedown skills against a true wrestler/sambo specialist.

Incorporate more strikes while grappling, this would force BJJ guys to recognize that guard work is needed but that top control is more crucial. EBI should be the norm, not the exception in BJJ competition. And completely eliminate guard pulling since it doesn't reinforce the importance of takedowns. I know people pull guard in MMA, but Jesus, master takedowns.

I have no intention in having anyone slap me in the face in a jiu jitsu competition.
If you want punches there is mma.