Dagestani/Chechens vs BJJ

[Coconutwater]

I have no intention in having anyone slap me in the face in a jiu jitsu competition.
If you want punches there is mma.

I’m just underscoring how something like Combat Sambo is a better preparation for MMA than most competitive jiu-jitsu. I don’t mind pure submission competition, but if a bunch of BJJ rooted fighters wonder why they’re not succeeding enough in MMA versus Russians, they can look to how they compete in their mother art.

 

[Stuart0502]

The reason I point it out is because he beat BJJ guys on the ground/in the grappling. That is where BJJ guys supposed to be dominant.

When he outstrikes Edson Barboza in a standup fight then I would point that out too.

It’s not like he subbed RDA from his back. IIRC, not much happened on the ground in those fights apart from some G N P from Khabib.

Having top position and being able to elbow someone in the head is a pretty significant advantage in MMA.

I also suspect, if RDA put Khabib on his back he would have got more done, though RDA was still some way short of the elite blackbelt level when he fought Khabib (to be fair Gilbert Burns is an elite blackbelt who has done not a lot on the ground in fights, mainly because he’s gassed by the time he gets the fight to the ground imo).

 

[yetanother]

I’m just underscoring how something like Combat Sambo is a better preparation for MMA than most competitive jiu-jitsu. I don’t mind pure submission competition, but if a bunch of BJJ rooted fighters wonder why they’re not succeeding enough in MMA versus Russians, they can look to how they compete in their mother art.

The elite wrestle wrestling they have makes the difference. If even say sporty guys like Musumeci or the Miyaos (with working knees)
had dagestani wrestling in their toolsets they would be crazy good in mma. Competing in combat Sambo doesn't seems like a better training tool then competing in amateur mma.

 

[Ishaq]

I have no intention in having anyone slap me in the face in a jiu jitsu competition.
If you want punches there is mma.

You can continue to worry about the sport, but some of us want to return to the martial art aspect. It was an art before a sport.

 

[Coconutwater]

The elite wrestle wrestling they have makes the difference. If even say sporty guys like Musumeci or the Miyaos (with working knees)
had dagestani wrestling in their toolsets they would be crazy good in mma. Competing in combat Sambo doesn't seems like a better training tool then competing in amateur mma.

Competing in combat sambo isn't better than training in amateur MMA, I agree...
That said, of the pure arts, Combat Sambo preps their guys for MMA better, just based on rules. I don't consider amateur MMA as a traditional martial art that you can readily find and compete in from the age of 12 years old etc...

 

[yetanother]

You can continue to worry about the sport, but some of us want to return to the martial art aspect. It was an art before a sport.

If you want to fight there is mma.

 

[yetanother]

Competing in combat sambo isn't better than training in amateur MMA, I agree...
That said, of the pure arts, Combat Sambo preps their guys for MMA better, just based on rules. I don't consider amateur MMA as a traditional martial art that you can readily find and compete in from the age of 12 years old etc...

There is plenty of amature mma tournaments where I live but I think you need to be 16 to compete. For kids wrestling seems to be the best base everywhere in the world where it doesn't suck.

 

[Coconutwater]

There is plenty of amature mma tournaments where I live but I think you need to be 16 to compete. For kids wrestling seems to be the best base everywhere in the world where it doesn't suck.

Yes, wrestling is the best base and completely safe for kids to learn prior to getting into more high-contact martial arts. I was just saying, at least combat sambo mixes striking and wrestling and is practiced by many Russians enough times that going into MMA, they're really comfortable.

 

[yetanother]

Yes, wrestling is the best base and completely safe for kids to learn prior to getting into more high-contact martial arts. I was just saying, at least combat sambo mixes striking and wrestling and is practiced by many Russians enough times that going into MMA, they're really comfortable.

My impression is that the wrestler aiming mma where treating this like an amature mma in a kurtka tournament rather then it being a sport they focused on or a vital training component.
From some Khabib video he was talking how had to travel far and was fighting anywhere he could including combat sambo to get some experience.

 

[Kratos94]

I think there is a reason we don't see too many of them in pure high-level grappling competitions.

Honestly, if you have a solid top game; heavy base; decent-to-good passing ability'; above average takedown game, in mma you should be fine.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I think the Dagestani and Chechens have two things in their favor, the style of grappling focuses on takedown and control, submissions are a bonus. They also practice with intensity, like someone said, the grinding style of practice is something that is not rewarded in BJJ culture where finesse and smoothness are prized. The thing is, wrestlers and Sambo guys are fluid enough and athletic/tough enough to break their opponents and manhandle them, something BJJ guys are not as good at in MMA, the minute strikes are included and where winning a round, however rough and tumble, matters most.

The three aspects in bold are basically nogi Judo/Sambo. But the opportunity to crosstrain with high level instruction in Judo, Sambo AND freestyle almost certainly prepares their athletes to do well in a hybrid ruleset like MMA.

Agree wrestling is probably the best single base, but I feel like bread and butter techniques in Judo/Sambo like foot sweeps, reaps and certain throws are less common in wrestling without cross-training.

 

[lechien]

I think the only people, surprised by the success of the Caucasus mountains guys, are the ones who are not familiar with the grappling styles they have trained, since childhood.

They (its the same in my native Bulgaria) start with freestyle wrestling, practiced in countryside environment (meaning, while herding sheeps, or doing farm work, similar to Iowa's wrestlers).

The most successful flow into the local government sports gym.

Now, here is the difference:

Point 1:
They get professional coaching advises by a person who was successful in the sport AND got a national sports academy education in coaching, in his respective style.

Point 2:
Those gyms are usually registered with the national Judo, Sambo and Wrestling federations, meaning they compete in all 3.

Eventually, the natural selection will direct some in one specific sport, or they will end up using their skills in a sport like MMA.

And now we see those same guys, upgrading their already existing game (in terms of grappling, great takedowns, followed by heavy top pressure and pins), to the modern aspects of MMA.

As everyone in the sport (MMA) has said, MMA grappling is quite different from pure grappling.

I think its strange to have this conversation in 2021, but its widely known, that a guy who started grappling as a child, will most probably be dominating MMA, if he follows the path, win some medals and is constantly upgrading his game.

I dont see why we are talking about BJJ as a separated entity of MIXED Martial Arts.

Its just one of the aspects.

And it really depends on many factors.

Here is one:
Jiujitsu is played on open space area, with restarts, if the contestants leave the area.

MMA is played in closed area, without breaks (almost).
The area is 3D, meaning one can be pinned and his game neutralised in VERTICAL position.

BJJ has no such gameplay.

Do you have specific season for each sports?
Or do they overlap?

 

[lechien]

You can continue to worry about the sport, but some of us want to return to the martial art aspect. It was an art before a sport.

What do you do that would make an art rather than a sport?
Disregard any techniques that would leave you open for strikes?

 

[lechien]

Is it just me or are these guys like Khamzat, Khabib, Makhachev just dominating every BJJ black belt thrown at them. Completely shutting down everyone's high level BJJ games and dominating them on the ground.

I mean do BJJ specialists have any answer for these guys?

We no longer care about defeating other martial arts or proving that bjj is superior .

The only existing concern is technical warfare to defeat other Bjjj competitors in our own sport rules.

Once you become famous, you make instructional videos, open your gym, sell seminars and affiliations.

Hell, you even have blue belts that train full time in hope to achieve the above. None of those guys or girls even care or contemplate getting punch in a cage for minimum income.

 

[Ivaylo Ivanov]

Do you have specific season for each sports?
Or do they overlap?

Local federations usually hold the nationals at fixed time periods, working together.

For example:
- Sumo nationals are in February.
- Sambo nationals are in March.
- Judo nationals are in April.
- Freestyle and Greco have several national events, from January till May.
- ADCC trials are in August.
- Jiujitsu events are all in between.

Each federation coordinates with the others, so they won't overlap dates.

From May till November, are the international events.

 

[Ishaq]

What do you do that would make an art rather than a sport?
Disregard any techniques that would leave you open for strikes?

You train with a fight mindset. Not with a sport mindset.

You get used to things like an opponent simply standing up and not willingly sitting in your guard. You get used to a strong wrestler who has no intention to fight on the ground.

Basically you do like Khabib does. Impose your will and submit everyone.

 

[Grappler111]

The three aspects in bold are basically nogi Judo/Sambo. But the opportunity to crosstrain with high level instruction in Judo, Sambo AND freestyle almost certainly prepares their athletes to do well in a hybrid ruleset like MMA.

Agree wrestling is probably the best single base, but I feel like bread and butter techniques in Judo/Sambo like foot sweeps, reaps and certain throws are less common in wrestling without cross-training.

Not in Russian freestyle wrestling. These techniques are less common in western wrestling schools.

 

[Grappler111]

My impression is that the wrestler aiming mma where treating this like an amature mma in a kurtka tournament rather then it being a sport they focused on or a vital training component.
From some Khabib video he was talking how had to travel far and was fighting anywhere he could including combat sambo to get some experience.

In Russia there is a wrestling style called Pankration. It is very popular and Khabib has also fights and training in this style.

 

[yetanother]

You train with a fight mindset. Not with a sport mindset.

You get used to things like an opponent simply standing up and not willingly sitting in your guard. You get used to a strong wrestler who has no intention to fight on the ground.

Basically you do like Khabib does. Impose your will and submit everyone.

Train mma then. Doing pure nogi grappling without strikes against someone who just wants to disengage is super silly.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Not in Russian freestyle wrestling. These techniques are less common in western wrestling schools.

For sure. And Russia is an area where wrestling, Judo and Sambo are all popular and taught at a high level. This is also why style vs. style debates are logically indefensible - regional and individual games within the same "style" vary because the "style" is only a common ruleset for competition.