Dagestani/Chechens vs BJJ

[Ishaq]

Is it just me or are these guys like Khamzat, Khabib, Makhachev just dominating every BJJ black belt thrown at them. Completely shutting down everyone's high level BJJ games and dominating them on the ground.

I mean do BJJ specialists have any answer for these guys?

 

[yetanother]

There are very few BJJ specialists left in the UFC.

 

[Ishaq]

There are very few BJJ specialists left in the UFC.

I mean Makhachev wrecked BJJ World champion Davi Ramos and submitted Thiago Moises. Khabib dominated RDA who is a good black belt.

Khamzat hasn't faced many high level guys yet but I'm sure based on his past performances that he will wreck any BJJ Black belt in the 170lb division on the ground.

 

[ChickenBrother]

I think it's no coincidence these guys come from a region where freestyle wrestling and Judo/Sambo are popular and most them trained all of these from a young age. So they're starting off in MMA skilled in all phases of grappling including TDs, top control, guard work and subs. A cross-trained background produces more complete grapplers than any individual style alone, which is more common.

 

[KBE6EKCTAH_CCP]

well freestyle wrestling with sub defense is superior in MMA to BJJ with take down defense.

 

[Grappler111]

I think it's no coincidence these guys come from a region where freestyle wrestling and Judo/Sambo are popular and most them trained all of these from a young age. So they're starting off in MMA skilled in all phases of grappling including TDs, top control, guard work and subs. A cross-trained background produces more complete grapplers than any individual style alone, which is more common.

Not only these arts but also Pankration and now Grappling.

 

[Seefoo]

I think it's no coincidence these guys come from a region where freestyle wrestling and Judo/Sambo are popular and most them trained all of these from a young age. So they're starting off in MMA skilled in all phases of grappling including TDs, top control, guard work and subs. A cross-trained background produces more complete grapplers than any individual style alone, which is more common.

Yeah, I don’t think this is really a style thing, it’s mainly that that region simply produces some really tough dudes who have been grappling since they could walk.

 

[Arcturus]

It's not just their grappling ability, these Russian/Caucasus guys have absolutely unearthly cardio and strength also. The training and repetition is just on another level completely. I even heard one story about how a lot of them roll shirtless on gravel roads....GRAVEL roads.

 

[JRD054]

It's not just their grappling ability, these Russian/Caucasus guys have absolutely unearthly cardio and strength also. The training and repetition is just on another level completely. I even heard one story about how a lot of them roll shirtless on gravel roads....GRAVEL roads.

Dagestanis/Russians actually have genetic for bad cardio but this is well counteracted by they're strict training and mountain training camps.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Yeah, I don’t think this is really a style thing, it’s mainly that that region simply produces some really tough dudes who have been grappling since they could walk.

It has to be due to both. There are many rough, poor regions in the world that produce tough as hell dudes, but most don't produce multiple world and Olympic champs in wrestling, Judo and Sambo (and MMA). The most talented guy in the world won't amount to much if he doesn't have proper coaching and high level training partners.

Guys like Khabib actually seem to be the washouts from wrestling/Judo but because the talent pool in his region is so high in both and him being cross-trained from a young age, he's a monster in a ruleset like MMA. Fedor and Shinya Aoki were likewise top guys on their respective national Judo teams but always the bridesmaid never the bride.

 

[yetanother]

I has to be due to both. There are many rough, poor regions in the world that produce tough as hell dudes, but most don't produce multiple world and Olympic champs in wrestling, Judo and Sambo (and MMA). The most talented guy in the world won't amount to much if he doesn't have proper coaching and high level training partners.

Guys like Khabib actually seem to be the washouts from wrestling/Judo but because the talent pool in his region is so high in both and him being cross-trained from a young age, he's a monster in a ruleset like MMA. Fedor and Shinya Aoki were likewise top guys on their respective national Judo teams but always the bridesmaid never the bride.

Having a estamplished wrestling situation with a ton of high level training partners and skilled coaches builds is what matters. In a culture where money has extreme value (buys tons of respect for your family), mma is a huge oppurtunity for wrestlers. Also there is a huge diference from being poor, rough and disciplined and poor, rough and wild and degenerate (like a lot of Brazillians from the favelas).

 

[ChickenBrother]

Having a estamplished wrestling situation with a ton of high level training partners and skilled coaches builds is what matters. In a culture where money has extreme value (buys tons of respect for your family), mma is a huge oppurtunity for wrestlers. Also there is a huge diference from being poor, rough and disciplined and poor, rough and wild and degenerate (like a lot of Brazillians from the favelas).

This is a great point. Becoming great at anything requires you to be consistent and disciplined by nature and/or have parental/cultural guidance to keep you in line. The BJJ culture in general IME is much more arbitrary and less structured than say, HS wrestling practices or formal Judo instruction both of which are targeted at competitors.

 

[shunyata]

Honestly I think it's mostly a matter of training well, training harder, training longer as others have alluded to.

The hours add up.

Someone training 40-50 hours a week for 20 years is going to seem inhuman to a guy who's been training 15-20 hours a week for 6 years.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Honestly I think it's mostly a matter of training well, training harder, training longer as others have alluded to.

The hours add up.

Someone training 40-50 hours a week for 20 years is going to seem inhuman to a guy who's been training 15-20 hours a week for 6 years.

Mat hours are critical but some folks oversell it as the be all end all without addressing the quality and style of instruction. For example in the U.S. it's common to teach the "hard" style of wrestling i.e. go hard all the time. In HS wrestling we literally never had a light practice day - it was always the coaches yelling at us to go harder and telling us if the technique wasn't working, we "didn't want it" enough. It was fucking brutal and kids were throwing up from grinding for hours and hours.

But I now know that isn't the best way to become good at grappling. In that environment kids like me who weren't natural grapplers learned to force everything. That works against low level guys If you train to be strong and tough enough but is a losing proposition vs. better guys. The only kids who became good enough to wrestle past HS were the ones who were natural athletes and could pick up moves and flow without being taught how to. DC has talked about this in comparing U.S. wrestling practices vs. former Soviet style.

Some BJJ schools have the opposite issue. They only learn how to flow but not how to deal with strong athletic grinders. A well-rounded grappler has to be able to do both.

Kids that trained Judo from a young age seem to have this balance down. IME they're just way smoother with their kuzushi and execution than guys who started as adults, even with years of training. If it doesn't come naturally to you, I can attest that learning to flow as an adult is very hard.

 

[yetanother]

Mat hours are critical but some folks oversell it as the be all end all without addressing the quality and style of instruction. For example in the U.S. it's common to teach the "hard" style of wrestling i.e. go hard all the time. In HS wrestling we literally never had a light practice day - it was always the coaches yelling at us to go harder and telling us if the technique wasn't working, we "didn't want it" enough. It was fucking brutal and kids were throwing up from grinding for hours and hours.

But I now know that isn't the best way to become good at grappling. In that environment kids like me who weren't natural grapplers learned to force everything. That works against low level guys If you train to be strong and tough enough but is a losing proposition vs. better guys. The only kids who became good enough to wrestle past HS were the ones who were natural athletes and could pick up moves and flow without being taught how to. DC has talked about this in comparing U.S. wrestling practices vs. former Soviet style.

Some BJJ schools have the opposite issue. They only learn how to flow but not how to deal with strong athletic grinders. A well-rounded grappler has to be able to do both.

Kids that trained Judo from a young age seem to have this balance down. IME they're just way smoother with their kuzushi and execution than guys who started as adults, even with years of training. If it doesn't come naturally to you, I can attest that learning to flow as an adult is very hard.

Drilling moves a lot makes you smooth at execution.

 

[shunyata]

There's levels to this shit.

Mat hours are critical but some folks oversell it as the be all end all without addressing the quality and style of instruction. For example in the U.S. it's common to teach the "hard" style of wrestling i.e. go hard all the time. In HS wrestling we literally never had a light practice day - it was always the coaches yelling at us to go harder and telling us if the technique wasn't working, we "didn't want it" enough. It was fucking brutal and kids were throwing up from grinding for hours and hours.

But I now know that isn't the best way to become good at grappling. In that environment kids like me who weren't natural grapplers learned to force everything. That works against low level guys If you train to be strong and tough enough but is a losing proposition vs. better guys. The only kids who became good enough to wrestle past HS were the ones who were natural athletes and could pick up moves and flow without being taught how to. DC has talked about this in comparing U.S. wrestling practices vs. former Soviet style.

Some BJJ schools have the opposite issue. They only learn how to flow but not how to deal with strong athletic grinders. A well-rounded grappler has to be able to do both.

Kids that trained Judo from a young age seem to have this balance down. IME they're just way smoother with their kuzushi and execution than guys who started as adults, even with years of training. If it doesn't come naturally to you, I can attest that learning to flow as an adult is very hard.

That's what I'm saying though, people who have had strong instruction and a full time training schedule from age 7 and are competing at 27 are going to seem like they're at a different level compared to a guy who picked up grappling at 21 and is fighting at 27.

Is normal.



As an aside but still related, huge props to Glover. Glover has also been mauling bjj black belts for years and I love that he hit gold at 42.

 

[ChickenBrother]

Drilling moves a lot makes you smooth at execution.

This is of course true but pulling them off live takes more than that. I've literally drilled doubles on and off for decades including drilling the shit out of them in HS and I still suck at hitting them live. It's like drilling a slick boxing combo on pads but then struggling to do it in a fight because other guy isn't playing along. Uppper body throws, high singles, high Cs, reaps and trips I can do and have for many years. But properly reading your opponent, setting up and chaining moves together requires you to be relaxed and "flowing" vs. smash beast mode. The former is hard to do if you can't flow properly.

 

[shunyata]

This is of course true but pulling them off live takes more than that. I've literally drilled doubles on and off for decades including drilling the shit out of them in HS and I still suck at hitting them live. It's like drilling a slick boxing combo on pads but then struggling to do it in a fight because other guy isn't playing along. Uppper body throws, high singles, high Cs, reaps and trips I can do and have for many years. But properly reading your opponent, setting up and chaining moves together requires you to be relaxed and "flowing" vs. smash beast mode. The former is hard to do if you can't flow properly.

Thus, the flowing smesh beast is the most dangerous of all. When werewolves get technical, the whole metagame changes for the better.

 

[ChickenBrother]

There's levels to this shit.


That's what I'm saying though, people who have had strong instruction and a full time training schedule from age 7 and are competing at 27 are going to seem like they're at a different level compared to a guy who picked up grappling at 21 and is fighting at 27.

Is normal.

This is tough to quantify and I don't know if it will ever be conclusively proven one way or another, but I've always figured techniques trained from a young age become second nature and don't need to be rationalized in the moment. Kids that came up training Judo, wrestling or BJJ for example, often can't explain exactly what they're doing to set up moves or how they're able to hit them so smoothly. Of course there's survivorship bias because the kids that stick with any style are more often than not, the kids who experienced early success with it.

But I've now trained grappling (wrestling, Judo, BJJ) coming up on 14 years (first 8 and last 5 being contiguous) and even though I collectively have more mat hours than the kid prodigies I've trained around, I'm nowhere near as relaxed or slick as they are.

 

[GordoBarraBJJ]

II mean do BJJ specialists have any answer for these guys?

The answer is it's mma and striking change everything and when they good at getting takedowns while avoiding submissions. How many Dag/Chechens have won pure grappling events such as ADCC or IBJJF?

islam said it himself - mma grappling is not bjj (pure grappling).