Criteria for GOAT

[ThunderStruck]

As far as I know Silva wasn't unfortunate or dumb enough to get caught during his time as a champion. So as you say, saying he was cheating while he was defending his belt - which is what place him in GOAT talks - will remain speculation.

Jones actually has the best win in his career overturned for cheating while he was a champ.

If Silva took the risk to use PEDs under USADA then he most likely took the risk to use PEDs during his title run.

 

[pankrat]

If Silva took the risk to use PEDs under USADA then he most likely took the risk to use PEDs during his title run.

As we said, mere speculation.

It could also be because of a major injury at an advanced age lead him to take PEDs...because he actually has bed problems.. who knows. Following the logic of the guy I was replying, it will remain speculation

 

[Fioretti]

Non UFC/Pride titles don’t count.
This will show you a full picture for your understanding.
View attachment 806206

I understand what your agenda is, and how you want to include/disclude certain things to cater to that agenda. I also understand how you've (twice now) ignored key points to keep on with your agenda. Is normal.

What about setting and breaking records? Is that not indicative of greatness? What about length of reign atop your division or length of reign as champion? What about holding your divisional position into your late 30's instead of quitting in your early 30's?

 

[bufetadanacara]

I'd say that ruling the HW division for a decade is a pretty good criterion.


A decade of ruling MW or WW, for example, is very impressive- but not as impressive as being the best HW.

By being the best HW fighter, one could plausibly claim to be the absolute best fighter in the world. That is very impressive.

 

[Fioretti]

I'd say that ruling the HW division for a decade is a pretty good criterion.


A decade of ruling MW or WW, for example, is very impressive- but not as impressive as being the best HW.

By being the best HW fighter, one could plausibly claim to be the absolute best fighter in the world. That is very impressive.

Strong points, and I agree mostly, but in the case of Fedor, you have a fighter who fought many unranked fighters, participated in freakshow fights, and had very few title defenses during his reign. He also never fought in the premier organization, and was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career as a MW. Opposed to Jones, Silva, and GSP who fought ranked opponents in the premier organization and defended their titles. GSP is the only other one who fought an unranked fighter, and oddly enough he too was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career in a weightclass below.

Jones and Silva are the greatest fighters we've seen yet. I personally give the edge in greatness to Silva based on his records, his streak, and all of the spectacular finishes. That is the greatest so far.

 

[bufetadanacara]

Strong points, and I agree mostly, but in the case of Fedor, you have a fighter who fought many unranked fighters, participated in freakshow fights, and had very few title defenses during his reign. He also never fought in the premier organization, and was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career as a MW. Opposed to Jones, Silva, and GSP who fought ranked opponents in the premier organization and defended their titles. GSP is the only other one who fought an unranked fighter, and oddly enough he too was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career in a weightclass below.

Jones and Silva are the greatest fighters we've seen yet. I personally give the edge in greatness to Silva based on his records, his streak, and all of the spectacular finishes. That is the greatest so far.

First of all, are you saying that Fedor Emilianenko, during his reign as HW champion, wasn't in the "premier organization"?
You must know that the HW division in Pride much, much better and more prestigious than UFC at the time. I don't even understand how that could be debatable so I will let you reconsider this point of yours. Also, he did fight in those freakshow matches but I think that they even add more to his record. Choi was 7'2" and over 300 lbs. Zulinho was 6'7" and also well over 300 lbs. Anything could have happened in those fights. Fedor had the courage to move up and fight those monsters- with absolutely nothing to gain and all to lose.



Let's compare Jones and Fedor. Fedor was 31-1-1 before he lost to Werdum. Jones is currently 26-1-1. Those are two very similar records, however, Fedor had a few more wins during his reign. Perhaps after Jones wins his next 5 fights, then we can compare the two fighters more fairly. Jones has not been quite so dominate over his last few fights so maybe the wheels are ready to fall off, only time will tell.

There are a couple of other reasons why I give more credit to Fedor's victories over Jones' victories. Firstly, Jones has been caught using performance enhancing drugs, Fedor wasn't. I am not saying that they were tested with the same frequency nor rigorosity; nevertheless, Fedor was never caught during his reign whereas Jones has been caught multiple times. Secondly, Fedor had a better finish rate than Jones; which admittedly is not a pre-requisite to win, however you've already been adamant about its importance.


Let's compare Fedor to Anderson. I have an incredible bias towards the HW division and Anderson is yet even further removed from it. Winning at HW, especially such a long streak as Fedor's, is impressive because of the extreme power that HW fighters have. Anyway, ignoring that, Fedor had the better record. Anderson was 33-4 during his reign. I am willing to overlook the Okami disqualification and discount that loss. However, if I do that, I must follow suit and do so for Emilanenko as well. Fedor's loss was due to a cut which hadn't even hurt him. In other words, Fedor was essentially undefeated whereas Anderson had lost 3 times. For the record, Anderson would be my second pick for p4p best fighter ever. His time in the UFC (until the Weidman loss) was incredible.

 

[TR1]

Minor league titles lol?

Pride WAS the major league.

Again, your obsession with GOAT rankings while not actually having watched the guys you post about is comical.

 

[Summoning]

There’s is much discussion about who is the greatest of all time here on Sherdog. I thought it would be cool to make some definite criteria through which we could compare fighters. Here are my takes:

1. Title fight record
2. UFC/Pride record
3. Longest UFC win streak
4. Multiple weight championships
5. Strength of competition
6. H2H competition
7. Overall MMA record
8. Minor league titles
9. Overall skill set
10. Finishing rate

Let’s take the 4 usual suspects (Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson) and compare them by these criteria.

1. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
2. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
3. Jones, Anderson, GSP, Fedor
4. GSP, Anderson, Fedor, Jones
5. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
6. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
7. Jones, GSP, Fedor, Anderson
8. Fedor, Anderson, Jones, GSP
9. Jones, GSP, Anderson, Fedor
10. Fedor, Anderson, Jones, GSP

this would clearly make Jones #1, GSP would come in 2nd followed by Fedor and Anderson finishing 4th.

What do make if these criteria?

is Fedor, deal with it.

 

[TR1]

Strong points, and I agree mostly, but in the case of Fedor, you have a fighter who fought many unranked fighters, participated in freakshow fights, and had very few title defenses during his reign. He also never fought in the premier organization, and was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career as a MW. Opposed to Jones, Silva, and GSP who fought ranked opponents in the premier organization and defended their titles. GSP is the only other one who fought an unranked fighter, and oddly enough he too was knocked out by a guy who spent the majority of his career in a weightclass below.r.

Wow, this is drivel. I have corrected you on this many times, yet here you are still repeating nonsense lmao.
1.) Fedor still defeated more ranked guys than anyone save maybe Nog. So much for your ranked claim.
2.) PRIDE was the premier org. Sorry Anderoid couldn't cut it there. Fedor also fought for Affliction, which had more top 5s than the UFC at the time.
3.) Lmao, and GSP got knocked out by a can LW, and Andy got subbed by can LWs.


Fedor "critics" are legitimately retarded.

 

[TR1]

11. how about domination of opponents ?

Silva
Jones
GSP
Fedor

*Khabib

lol no.

Silva was far less dominant than Fedor, and even GSP.

He had a bunch of shitty performances.

 

[GOATtalks]

I understand what your agenda is, and how you want to include/disclude certain things to cater to that agenda. I also understand how you've (twice now) ignored key points to keep on with your agenda. Is normal.

What about setting and breaking records? Is that not indicative of greatness? What about length of reign atop your division or length of reign as champion? What about holding your divisional position into your late 30's instead of quitting in your early 30's?

You’re funny mate. I have no agenda. I’m actually trying to make an objective measuring criteria. All the things you pointed out are very subjective.
I tried to offer criteria you could apply on anyone, not only these 4 fighters.

 

[Bouboumaster]

Weak attempt.
I mean you have finishing your opponent as the least valuable criteria.

Like it matters about the same, or more, to squeeze out a controversial split decision (Hendricks) than put your opponent away

Hendricks, Gus 1, Santos and Reyes am I right?

 

[GOATtalks]

Minor league titles lol?

Pride WAS the major league.

Again, your obsession with GOAT rankings while not actually having watched the guys you post about is comical.

I actually had UFC=Pride in these criteria. Even then Fedor has only had 3 title fights and his Pride streak was 14 wins. Jones has 17 and Anderson had 16 consecutive wins at UFC.
I have seen all Fedor’s fights.

 

[GOATtalks]

is Fedor, deal with it.

You remind of me of flat earthers

 

[pankrat]

Hendricks, Gus 1, Santos and Reyes am I right?

Yeah I think so. That's why Silva is my pick

 

[Fioretti]

First of all, are you saying that Fedor Emilianenko, during his reign as HW champion, wasn't in the "premier organization"?
You must know that the HW division in Pride much, much better and more prestigious than UFC at the time. I don't even understand how that could be debatable so I will let you reconsider this point of yours. Also, he did fight in those freakshow matches but I think that they even add more to his record. Choi was 7'2" and over 300 lbs. Zulinho was 6'7" and also well over 300 lbs. Anything could have happened in those fights. Fedor had the courage to move up and fight those monsters- with absolutely nothing to gain and all to lose.



Let's compare Jones and Fedor. Fedor was 31-1-1 before he lost to Werdum. Jones is currently 26-1-1. Those are two very similar records, however, Fedor had a few more wins during his reign. Perhaps after Jones wins his next 5 fights, then we can compare the two fighters more fairly. Jones has not been quite so dominate over his last few fights so maybe the wheels are ready to fall off, only time will tell.

There are a couple of other reasons why I give more credit to Fedor's victories over Jones' victories. Firstly, Jones has been caught using performance enhancing drugs, Fedor wasn't. I am not saying that they were tested with the same frequency nor rigorosity; nevertheless, Fedor was never caught during his reign whereas Jones has been caught multiple times. Secondly, Fedor had a better finish rate than Jones; which admittedly is not a pre-requisite to win, however you've already been adamant about its importance.


Let's compare Fedor to Anderson. I have an incredible bias towards the HW division and Anderson is yet even further removed from it. Winning at HW, especially such a long streak as Fedor's, is impressive because of the extreme power that HW fighters have. Anyway, ignoring that, Fedor had the better record. Anderson was 33-4 during his reign. I am willing to overlook the Okami disqualification and discount that loss. However, if I do that, I must follow suit and do so for Emilanenko as well. Fedor's loss was due to a cut which hadn't even hurt him. In other words, Fedor was essentially undefeated whereas Anderson had lost 3 times. For the record, Anderson would be my second pick for p4p best fighter ever. His time in the UFC (until the Weidman loss) was incredible.

Wow, this is drivel. I have corrected you on this many times, yet here you are still repeating nonsense lmao.
1.) Fedor still defeated more ranked guys than anyone save maybe Nog. So much for your ranked claim.
2.) PRIDE was the premier org. Sorry Anderoid couldn't cut it there. Fedor also fought for Affliction, which had more top 5s than the UFC at the time.
3.) Lmao, and GSP got knocked out by a can LW, and Andy got subbed by can LWs.


Fedor "critics" are legitimately retarded.

You’re funny mate. I have no agenda. I’m actually trying to make an objective measuring criteria. All the things you pointed out are very subjective.
I tried to offer criteria you could apply on anyone, not only these 4 fighters.

PRIDE has been defunct for, what, 15 years? How long has Fedor's MMA career been so far? How many years did he fight for PRIDE? How many years did he fight outside of PRIDE? The man spent a fraction of his career in what was once the premier organization. An organization that has been gone for a decade and a half....

Title defenses, finishes, all-time records, length of reign, and strength of schedule are pretty standard criteria when measuring greatness in MMA. All categories are owned by Jones and Silva. Sorry for ya, homies.

 

[Egészségére!]

lol no.

Silva was far less dominant than Fedor, and even GSP.

He had a bunch of shitty performances.

Maybe your definition is different because Silva was rarely in any trouble for most of his fights. Cat toying with a mouse type dominance. Fedor’s fights were usually more competitive imo

 

[pankrat]

lol no.

Silva was far less dominant than Fedor, and even GSP.

He had a bunch of shitty performances.

Well he was basically a counterstriker, so obviously was not dominant in the sense GSP was. But at the end of the day always ended finishing his opponent except for a couple of completely lopsided decisions (Maia and Leites, not sure if they even managed to land 15 strikes toguether in 50 minuts in the cage with Silva; even that stat is extraordinary)
So yeah, Silva was definitely the most dominant champion imo

 

[pankrat]

Maybe your definition is different because Silva was rarely in any trouble for most of his fights. Cat toying with a mouse type dominance. Fedor’s fights were usually more competitive imo

I think he was more vulnerable to be in trouble. He had a bigger weakness (wrestling) than GSP or Jones had.

Lutter, Hendo and Sonnen had him in some trouble, apart from his actual losses.

But he still managed to get the finish more often than anybody else so in my book he was the most dominant

 

[Dirge]

Weak attempt.
I mean you have finishing your opponent as the least valuable criteria.

Like it matters about the same, or more, to squeeze out a controversial split decision (Hendricks) than put your opponent away

How many decision wins does Jones have in the UFC? (its 10 btw)

GSP has 12.

They have the same number of fights

And frankly you have to factor in strength of opposition. A lot harder to finish tougher opponents.

Also GSP fought at WW (and MW once), Silva at MW and LHW, Jones at LHW and Fedor at HW. The heavier the weight class the higher the finish rate.

Plus the consensus was that Hendricks was absolutely juiced to the gills for his fight with GSP, a factor that is fairly obvious given he went 1-5 missing weight 4 times post USADA.