Crab People

Discussion in 'Standup Technique' started by bagelgod, Oct 2, 2013.

  1. bagelgod

    bagelgod Green Belt

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    I'm always fascinated by the different boxing styles I see, the different tactics and strategies people come up with in the squared circle. My latest obsession is with the "Crab Defense", or cross arm defense. Archie Moore and Old George Foreman are clear proponents of the Crab Style, and Ken Norton to a certain degree as well. Does anyone else know of any exemplary Crabby guys? Is there some kind of King Crab Resource for those who enjoy watching crab attacks? Thanks guys, this may be the deadliest catch I've had yet.

    Edit:
    This is a pretty rad analysis of some of the tricksiness of Archie Moore.
     
  2. Jing

    Jing Black Belt

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    Very cool video. Never seen that style before.
     
  3. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    The OG.

     
  4. Bay Area

    Bay Area Silver Belt

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  5. StopDucking

    StopDucking Ronda Rousey hater

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    Not sure if serious...


    [​IMG]
     
  6. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    I think he was talking about Archie Moore's cross-armed guard, which is different than the guard that Mayweather uses, though they both start from a similar crab position.
     
  7. bagelgod

    bagelgod Green Belt

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    I would say what Floyd does is more Michigan-style philly shell (also known as "Stonewall" or "Shoulder roll" defense), exhibited by the first 30 seconds in the archie moore video, as opposed to the Crab/Cross Armed Guard (exhibited by :40 to 1:20 in the archie moore video). Cross armed guard, or crab as I believe it is also called, is using your forearms and elbows in a horizontal position in front of you to block. It's more square than the bladed shell.

    Not to say you couldn't switch between the two, and Moore certainly does in the video above, but I would say they are different enough to say that Floyd does something different.
     
  8. Discipulus

    Discipulus Black Belt

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    The way I understand it, "crab" refers to the position of the arms, not necessarily the style in which they are used.
     
  9. Jing

    Jing Black Belt

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    Hey I'm just here because I thought this thread was about the movie Cloverfield.
     
  10. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    Check out this video - the guy was known for his cross arm defense.
    Pay attention to what happens at 1:57.

    Great usage of that defense to set up counterpunching ...

    [YT]7SBXIc_yJA4[/YT]
     
  11. ThatBJJGuy

    ThatBJJGuy Brown Belt

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  12. bagelgod

    bagelgod Green Belt

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    Holy hell! That was fantastic.
     
  13. shpboris

    shpboris Blue Belt

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    I like how Cooper is very active with this defense and always creates the opportunities to counterpuch off of it.

    Not just passively using it to defend himself.
     
  14. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Floyd Mayweather Sr. refers to their upper-body positioning as "The Crab." I've done everything I could to trace the History of this. I learned from him that his trainer was Dale Williams. And it must have had some prominence in Michigan as a regional thing because many fighters from there use it. Though Sr. didn't use it as much as Jr. does. The predecessor of this style was invented by Tommy Ryan, and taught to Jim Jeffries who took it to the Heavyweight Title. If you very closely examine photos of Jeffries, things should jump out at you:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I'll give you a hint:

    [​IMG]

    Though Ryan's version was referred to as "The Crouching Crab" because Jeffries kept his knees bent, and often moved almost sideways at the opponent. Baited with the left hand a lot (which Floyd Jr. does, and Sr. teaches).

    Moore's style is totally different. One of the trainers at my Gym learned in San Diego under Archie alongside Billy. Archie himself referred to it as "the lock." From everything I've been able to dig up, it was taught to him by Hiawatha Gray, himself a bare knuckle fighter (as I mentioned in the Wing Chun thread on this main page). It makes a lot of sense particularly for bare knuckles or horse hair gloves, bang on the elbows and eventually your hands hurt or break.

    It's been pointed out numerous times that the term "Philly Shell" was coined by a video game. However, there WERE a few Philly fighters who used a similar position as "The Crab" for their arms. Bennie Briscoe, and of course Goergie Benton as was referred to earlier in the thread. Also Joe Frazier, and a host of Philly Gym fighters (even loosely Rocky Balboa if you really pay attention to how Stallone moved, and he's been boxing recreationally for years), including Bernard Hopkins. Though I've never discovered how this ended up in Philly, it seems to have in common everyone Benton or Futch (who worked in both Philly AND Michigan) had any influence with.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2013
  15. Babba

    Babba Purple Belt

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    cool stuff, i like the history lessons
     
  16. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    I like to be able to give credibility to lineages in Boxing. IMO it gives these styles more merit as actual crafts.
     
  17. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    P.S. - Foreman was taught "the lock" BY Archie Moore. Archie and the Saddlers were his first trainers. He was a combination of Moore's jab, lock position, and Saddler's rough handling on the inside and short right hand.

    P.P.S. - "Philly Shell" vs. "The Lock":

     
  18. a guy

    a guy Black Belt

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    I find your posts about lineages absolutely fascinating. Even when I don't know who most of the guys you mention are, these posts inspire me to look into them. I think it's amazing how far back some of it goes and how styles are refined and passed down over decades. I'd really love to know more about the coaches and trainers in boxing. In every combat sport, for that matter. Somehow that can be more interesting to me than watching the fights themselves on occasion. Are there any books or reading materials out there that trace these lineages?
     
  19. Sinister

    Sinister Doctor of Doom Staff Member Senior Moderator

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    Unfortunately not really. There's a couple of rare books about trainers where you can pick up some info out there. But even those can be hard to come by. Most of what I've gotten has been "right place, right time" situations where I got the opportunity to ask the right questions. The answers compared to various articles about so-and-so either corroborate or they don't. That's why I'm still unsure about how the "Crouching Crab" ended up in Michigan. I think I read something about Jeffries training in Michigan for a bout or two, and that's the closest I've gotten. Obviously Futch is linked to both Michigan and Philly, but the style predates him. He might be responsible for use of the lowered lead hand, slightly sideways guard the Philly fighters used, though.
     
  20. Spirit Breaker

    Spirit Breaker Purple Belt

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    My trainer was in the same stable as Floyd Sr. in their fighting days and he teaches us the style closer to what Dale Williams taught the two of them.

    The Mayweather's have taken the foundations and made it their own.

    I've spent a lot of time in Grand Rapids gyms and they definitely push the Mayweather style over there. It's interesting to see the different techniques gym to gym whether it's in a particular region or has a particular ethnic group.
     

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