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The recently deceased Ken Norton also used the crab/cross guard and gave Ali fits with it courtesy of Futch. I don't think he's been mentioned yet.
Crab People
- Thread starter bagelgod
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I remember an interview where Nacho said he combined his Cuban and Russian experiences as the basis for his approach...I'll try to find the video.
Great thread btw
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Dee always looked huge. Here's a photo of he, myself, and Honeybear (before he got put in assisted living due to dementia), after a sparring session. Keep in-mind I'M heavier than Dee is here:
It depends on what the trainer wants to do. Many of them are looking for the goose that lays the golden eggs. The Pacquiao. From what you're saying Nacho is a true craftsman, he likes to BUILD his fighters. That's what I like to do, so I'd always work with Amateurs. But Mike, he dislikes working with Amateurs. He says too much work for not enough money. Depends on what the trainer is in it for.
This makes A LOT of sense when looking at Nacho's teaching style. Both Finito and JMM are often praised for their "high guard"...but neither of them actually used their hands for defense very much. They use positioning. Also, any trainer who was taught to be a trainer, regardless of their lineage, should never be discouraged from looking to other sources. There's traces of Futch/Benton in what I teach, but there's also traces of Cuban boxing. All of which are visible in my fighters.
He was, as was detailed in the opening post. I was just clarifying that any "Crab" reference should go towards the Michigan or Philly based fighters who use that position. "The Lock" is something else altogether. Frazier actually used a bit of both from time to time.
Yeah I can't think of ANY active fighters who use the "Lock" currently. Even though the Mongoose Gym still exists and Billy Moore still trains fighters. John also knows it, but he refuses to teach it here at Tocco's. He only got Dee by happenstance, and he didn't change Dee's style, so he was forced to use what he knew of fighting like that from being around the Moores. I've tried to encourage him to every time he gets a fighter who I think it would make physiological sense to teach.
I've only recently been looking into the History of it, there's a few books about Moore where Hiawatha Grey is mentioned. But info about him is otherwise nearly impossible to come by. The problem is Archie was pretty egotistical and bombastic. So he was hard-pressed to give anyone else credit for things he did. But it's said by people around him that whenever he would fight an opponent he didn't think he could beat on his own, he'd bring in Hiawatha. So that shows how much he respected Hiawatha's fighting mind. Grey was also loosely associated with Charley Burley, having cornered Burley for a few bouts after Burley beat Moore handily.
The thing to remember about Boxing back then was it was like the Wild West. It kind of still is. There's very little law, trainers mostly taught kids and back then being a trainer and being a cornerman were two VERY different things. Many trainers didn't care much for being cornermen. Some great cornermen were also mediocre trainers, and some mediocre cornermen were great trainers in the Gym. Then sometimes you hit the jackpot and get both, like Benton, Futch, Miller, Grey, etc. Guys who could train you in the Gym, and get you through a fight. But many of the greats like Burley and Moore were more often cornered by their managers, or some hired gun cornerman whose job was merely to towel them down, tend to cuts/swelling, give them water. The fighters themselves behaved like gunslingers, had the skill to be on their own, and didn't want to share the loot with a trainer anyway. I've said all that to say that it's fuckin' HARD to trace a lot of these Histories if you can't actually talk to people who were either around, or were around people who were around and got them to talk.
As for the style itself, I can only speak from observation. Dadi studied Moore A LOT. More so than myself, and he was most impressed with Moore's ability to use his hips. Baptist does the same thing, and it's why he gives Hopkins so much trouble in the video I posted earlier. The "Lock" arm position isn't REALLY to block punches as much as it is to get you to throw. Moore himself was a counter-puncher. However, when thrown at, it does offer the possibility of the opponent hitting elbows and hurting their hands. But this seemed more of an added bonus. You can see when Baptist is in that position, if you watch that fight, with his arms...his upper-body is rotating and using what Moore referred to as "serpentine motion"...to draw your opponent's fire. Opening him up for counter-attacks. The disadvantage is you can be timed as well. And develop a false sense of security in keeping your arms like that. Moore, Baptist, Foreman...when they used it, they got hit plenty.
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Didn't want to quote the entire post, but I did have a question about this. When you say you encourage John to teach the "Lock" when it makes physiological sense, what exactly are you looking for in a fighter? Any specific body type, physical features, or attributes? I'm curious if there is a type of fighter who can really maximize this style, because the fighters I've seen use it are pretty varied in body type and boxing style. Frazier and Cooper were both stockier and liked to get inside, Archie Moore was more of a counterpuncher from what I've seen, then obviously Foreman was much bigger and taller than any of those guys.
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Again mainly observationally, but I find that stockier, more aggressive guys, with shorter arms make best use of the "Lock" position. Using hip movement is one thing, but using hip movement going forward is something else. I discovered this sparring Dee. He likes to counter-punch too, but in his heart he's a forward-moving tank. He would throw a hook, lower a shoulder, then just step right in and voila...he's on the inside without getting touched. When I first sparred him I don't think I landed a single punch cleanly. My only saving grace was making him miss, too. Without Mike's instructions in the corner, I'd have been chewed up.
So when I see a stocky guy who likes to move forward, and has so-so reach, they're the ones I tend to favor for it. With longer-armed guys it's just awkward. Archie had long arms, but he wasn't very tall, so I think his height helped. Same with Baptist. Foreman was tall, but he was also aggressive, didn't like going backwards. Though he almost never used his hips for defensive movement once he fell in love with his punch. His knowledge of Saddler's style IMO is what really set him apart, though he did throw his hooks exactly like Archie did, too.
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My arms look just like his...HA! Yeah right. :icon_lol:Dee always looked huge. Here's a photo of he, myself, and Honeybear (before he got put in assisted living due to dementia), after a sparring session. Keep in-mind I'M heavier than Dee is here:
Is that just for the photo or are you a southie, Sinister?
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Hope you mean Dick. Out of he and Sandy, he was the better trainer.
I'm a Southpaw. There's footage of me moving around here:
http://forums.sherdog.com/forums/f11/showthread.php?t=2557929
Can you please elaborate a little bit more on that ? Especially, "lower a shoulder" part ... Can't exactly understand how it works and helps to get inside clean ...
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Nice.
I know you were moving at have speed, but you look very skilled. Very good footwork.
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I hear ya. Now that I'm back in the gym I realize I have (what I feel is) a lot of knowledge, I just have to see if my body is still willing.
The youth is wasted on the young. Ain't that the truth.
