Crab People

[Sinister]

Good post. It sucks that Dale didn't get more recognition. I asked Floyd why he's not very heralded and Floyd said it was just because he was very old. Dale is someone whose brain I'd have liked to pick. Also Bill Miller, if I'm not mistaken he armed Toney with a very similar style.

Another bonus fight: Vernon Paris (trained for this bout by Floyd Sr.) vs. Tim Coleman (trained for this fight by Roger)...shame the Brothers didn't corner each guy. That would have been interesting:



P.S. - Paris trained here at Tocco's while Tim trained at MBC.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

Good post. It sucks that Dale didn't get more recognition. I asked Floyd why he's not very heralded and Floyd said it was just because he was very old. Dale is someone whose brain I'd have liked to pick. Also Bill Miller, if I'm not mistaken he armed Toney with a very similar style.

Another bonus fight: Vernon Paris (trained for this bout by Floyd Sr.) vs. Tim Coleman (trained for this fight by Roger)...shame the Brothers didn't corner each guy. That would have been interesting:



P.S. - Paris trained here at Tocco's while Tim trained at MBC.

I was fortunate enough to know Mr. Miller very well. He was a great man and sharp as a tack up until his final days. He was the one who truly taught Toney his craft.

One of the greatest compliments I ever got was when Mr. Miller told us how when he was running a gym he used to keep a table in the back with applications to the big 3's plants and if a kid came in to the gym and just didn't have it he'd walk them to the table and tell them to get a job. I asked him if he would have shown me the table and he put his hand on my should and said "Son, your a fighter." I couldn't have been prouder of myself

Sinister, you would have loved him. His stories and input were incredible.

I know Vernon a little as well.

 

[Sinister]

I was fortunate enough to know Mr. Miller very well. He was a great man and sharp as a tack up until his final days. He was the one who truly taught Toney his craft.

One of the greatest compliments I ever got was when Mr. Miller told us how when he was running a gym he used to keep a table in the back with applications to the big 3's plants and if a kid came in to the gym and just didn't have it he'd walk them to the table and tell them to get a job. I asked him if he would have shown me the table and he put his hand on my should and said "Son, your a fighter." I couldn't have been prouder of myself

Sinister, you would have loved him. His stories and input were incredible.

I know Vernon a little as well.

That's fantastic stuff. I can't remember who it was a long time ago I was posting with around here who said they didn't see a lot of value in lineage, this account of your experience is exactly WHY I value people like yourself, who are on direct learning lines of this craft. I may not ever be able to meet Mr. Miller or Dale Williams, but talking to someone like yourself is the next best thing. And not having people like us (Benton/Futch/Steward - McCallum - Me) is how these lineages get broken.

And yes, I know the exact kind of moment. Fills you up with that indescribable feeling. Mike is friends with Mike Tyson, they met in Brooklyn years ago and McCallum trained Mike's oldest Son for a while. One day I was hitting the mitts, and f*ckin' Mike Tyson is watching because he was visiting Mike. And when I say watching I mean I was one of maybe 3 people in the Gym because I always got there as soon as it opened. When my round ended I said something in passing to Mike about possibly training people, teaching them how to avoid all the pitfalls. He said: "I don't know about that, I just like to come watch guys like you because you still love this. I used to. So when I see you guys I at least get to see that love again."

I'm not often rendered speechless, but I had nothing. In my head all I kept thinking was: "Man...I used to try to beat you on Punchout!"

I forgot to add, Vernon was always cool with me. Though I did have to get after him for the Gym dues from time to time, that happens with a lot of Pros. One day he sparred Osvaldo Garcia, this was right after Floyd left him alone and he had no one set up to spar with, so Garcia got in the ring with him. Garcia never made much of himself as a Pro, but he was a Cuban National Champion in the Amateurs, and in his first Pro bout he knocked out Greylin Curry (most notable of the Curry Brothers in the Amateurs, Greylin, Donald, and Bruce). That KO probably ruined Greylin's career. Even old and out of shape he gave Vernon a run for his money.

He was aight with me, but then again with my background, I tend to get along well with criminal types.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

That's fantastic stuff. I can't remember who it was a long time ago I was posting with around here who said they didn't see a lot of value in lineage, this account of your experience is exactly WHY I value people like yourself, who are on direct learning lines of this craft. I may not ever be able to meet Mr. Miller or Dale Williams, but talking to someone like yourself is the next best thing. And not having people like us (Benton/Futch/Steward - McCallum - Me) is how these lineages get broken.

And yes, I know the exact kind of moment. Fills you up with that indescribable feeling. Mike is friends with Mike Tyson, they met in Brooklyn years ago and McCallum trained Mike's oldest Son for a while. One day I was hitting the mitts, and f*ckin' Mike Tyson is watching because he was visiting Mike. And when I say watching I mean I was one of maybe 3 people in the Gym because I always got there as soon as it opened. When my round ended I said something in passing to Mike about possibly training people, teaching them how to avoid all the pitfalls. He said: "I don't know about that, I just like to come watch guys like you because you still love this. I used to. So when I see you guys I at least get to see that love again."

I'm not often rendered speechless, but I had nothing. In my head all I kept thinking was: "Man...I used to try to beat you on Punchout!"

I forgot to add, Vernon was always cool with me. Though I did have to get after him for the Gym dues from time to time, that happens with a lot of Pros. One day he sparred Osvaldo Garcia, this was right after Floyd left him alone and he had no one set up to spar with, so Garcia got in the ring with him. Garcia never made much of himself as a Pro, but he was a Cuban National Champion in the Amateurs, and in his first Pro bout he knocked out Greylin Curry (most notable of the Curry Brothers in the Amateurs, Greylin, Donald, and Bruce). That KO probably ruined Greylin's career. Even old and out of shape he gave Vernon a run for his money.

He was aight with me, but then again with my background, I tend to get along well with criminal types.

Holy shit that's amazing! Great story. I'm officially jealous. Tyson for all his faults is one of my all time favorites, tied with Tommy Hearns. When I was a little guy and I saw him lose to Douglas I cried ha ha! I can't imagine how great you must have felt.

I often think how blessed I am to have so much love for the sport and been able to find my trainer, almost by chance. There is literally 100 years of boxing knowledge through the lineage. It's funny because it is like in the Karate movies I loved growing up, like Bloodsport, "Tanaka Karate flowed from father to son father to son!" ha ha!

It's great that you not only have so much knowledge, but are surrounded by it as well, and that you share it on here.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

I forgot to add, Vernon was always cool with me. Though I did have to get after him for the Gym dues from time to time, that happens with a lot of Pros. One day he sparred Osvaldo Garcia, this was right after Floyd left him alone and he had no one set up to spar with, so Garcia got in the ring with him. Garcia never made much of himself as a Pro, but he was a Cuban National Champion in the Amateurs, and in his first Pro bout he knocked out Greylin Curry (most notable of the Curry Brothers in the Amateurs, Greylin, Donald, and Bruce). That KO probably ruined Greylin's career. Even old and out of shape he gave Vernon a run for his money.

He was aight with me, but then again with my background, I tend to get along well with criminal types.

HA HA! Yeah Vernon's ok, but we weren't friends or anything. I think he and my trainers son had a gym rivalry.

He has a lot of talent but has an affinity towards, how shall I say, some recreational activities.

 

[thugpoet]

We had a convo about linage. My point was that if people only sought out trainers with said linage, then then at what point can a new linage start?

ether way great thread

 

[Sinister]

Holy shit that's amazing! Great story. I'm officially jealous. Tyson for all his faults is one of my all time favorites, tied with Tommy Hearns. When I was a little guy and I saw him lose to Douglas I cried ha ha! I can't imagine how great you must have felt.

I often think how blessed I am to have so much love for the sport and been able to find my trainer, almost by chance. There is literally 100 years of boxing knowledge through the lineage. It's funny because it is like in the Karate movies I loved growing up, like Bloodsport, "Tanaka Karate flowed from father to son father to son!" ha ha!

It's great that you not only have so much knowledge, but are surrounded by it as well, and that you share it on here.

It was pretty surreal, for sure. Back then I was still fresh enough to be a bit star-struck by meeting Tyson. I didn't show it, though. When he said what he said I just kinda nodded. But playing it cool was difficult.

It's very good for the Sport that you found your trainer. Sherdog might be a silly little internet forum, but at least there's another credible pseudo-public voice around.

HA HA! Yeah Vernon's ok, but we weren't friends or anything. I think he and my trainers son had a gym rivalry.

He has a lot of talent but has an affinity towards, how shall I say, some recreational activities.

Ah yes, the Gym rivalries. If it gives you a bit of a tickle, Vernon got smacked around by a guy here who was 2-1, and at the time was being trained by John (the one on the Archie Moore line)...but his first trainer was Eugene "Honeybear" Bryant, who had 89 fights as a Pro and his biggest notoriety came from being hired and fired in one day as a sparring partner for Gene Fullmer (he'd dropped a decision to Gene's Brother Don), and also for training Jesse Feliciano back when Jesse was worth something. Here's a sparring session of his against Juan Pablo Montes De Oca, who is a journeyman...but famous in Vegas Gyms as a favored sparring partner of Floyd Jr. He was hired on for prep against Canelo:



EDIT: Apologies for the Brazilian kid chattering with Mike about bullshit as he was recording this for me.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

Now that's some good work right there! Nice video. They look big for Jr. MW.

You gotta be cautious with the opponent "journeyman" types in the gym. They usually fight regular and don't have the luxury of picking opponents so they know a lot of styles and a lot of tricks.

 

[Sinister]

Now that's some good work right there! Nice video. They look big for Jr. MW.

You gotta be cautious with the opponent "journeyman" types in the gym. They usually fight regular and don't have the luxury of picking opponents so they know a lot of styles and a lot of tricks.

The journeymen are the toughest Gym fighters, that's for sure. Pablo's record is shitty, but I've seen him knock out enough guys in the Gym to know not to play when you're in there with him. These guys who earn their living as sparring partners can be some of the grittiest. I was very proud the first time I got offered a paid gig. And when Jesse Feliciano tapped me to help him prep for Carlos Quintana. Jesse was done by then, but still quite the unsung honor.

We had a convo about linage. My point was that if people only sought out trainers with said linage, then then at what point can a new linage start?

ether way great thread

That's a valid question, but just understand that's like asking anyone about any craft in the same sense. If you don't learn your welding from a welder, when do you start teaching people how to weld?

There are some people who have the aptitude to do it, and do it well. But generally seeking experience is the right way to go.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

We had a convo about linage. My point was that if people only sought out trainers with said linage, then then at what point can a new linage start?

ether way great thread

That's a valid question, but just understand that's like asking anyone about any craft in the same sense. If you don't learn your welding from a welder, when do you start teaching people how to weld?

There are some people who have the aptitude to do it, and do it well. But generally seeking experience is the right way to go.

These are interesting points, but the Mayweather's for example live for boxing and the study of it. Now take a guy like Enzo Calzaghe who coached his son to world championships with no boxing background. But will he have anyone else? Could Joe's success been serendipitous?

I'm not trying to shit on Enzo, but what I'm saying is the trainers with the lineage have roots in functional, successful technique.

 

[Sinister]

To be fair to Enzo Calzaghe, he did have that Cruiserweight, Enzo Macaroni or something like that.

But yes, the techniques that are tried and true. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be a pedigreed lineage. Some guys have just enough History in the game to know the fundamentals, then their improvisations on that as trainers make them geniuses. For instance, I have no idea who taught Nacho Beristain. Nor Canelo's trainers. But whomever they are, they were damn good.

P.S. - SB, in the video above, Pablo is a 154lb'er, Dee is a 140lb'er, if you can believe that. I sparred Dee every other day for what seemed like a whole year when I first came to Tocco's, it was very fun and very not fun at the same time.

 

[thugpoet]

These are interesting points, but the Mayweather's for example live for boxing and the study of it. Now take a guy like Enzo Calzaghe who coached his son to world championships with no boxing background. But will he have anyone else? Could Joe's success been serendipitous?

I'm not trying to shit on Enzo, but what I'm saying is the trainers with the lineage have roots in functional, successful technique.

So, because I didnt learn from bill miller, I don't have functional, successfull technique?

Its not even about rather or not I know what I am talking about or rather my teaching methods are sound... Its who was your trainer...

Perfect example sweet pea was a great great fight trained by George Benton.

he has not shown himself to be a great trainer. ( yet)

at what point do we look at the trainers personal resume as a trainer, and not the trainers trainer.

Of course just like getting a degree from Harvard is better then the random Jr collage degree. However we judge both graduates on their personal skill level

 

[Sinister]

Dude, don't take something he said and make it something he didn't say. All he said was that trainers with lineages have roots in successful fundamentals.

You're taking that as if it's automatically disqualifying anyone else, or that because someone has a lineage means they're a good trainer, which isn't the case.

BTW, another point to look at is who was trained by a good trainer to be a good trainer. Because being a trainer and being a fighter are two Worlds that rarely mix well. That's something I heard a long time ago, but have learned more so is true through seeing it play out over and over again.

 

[Spirit Breaker]

To be fair to Enzo Calzaghe, he did have that Cruiserweight, Enzo Macaroni or something like that.

But yes, the techniques that are tried and true. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be a pedigreed lineage. Some guys have just enough History in the game to know the fundamentals, then their improvisations on that as trainers make them geniuses. For instance, I have no idea who taught Nacho Beristain. Nor Canelo's trainers. But whomever they are, they were damn good.

P.S. - SB, in the video above, Pablo is a 154lb'er, Dee is a 140lb'er, if you can believe that. I sparred Dee every other day for what seemed like a whole year when I first came to Tocco's, it was very fun and very not fun at the same time.

I know what you're saying and I really wasn't taking a shot at him, but I mean it is a legit question.

Dang, maybe it's the angle of the vid but they look huge!

So, because I didnt learn from bill miller, I don't have functional, successfull technique?

Its not even about rather or not I know what I am talking about or rather my teaching methods are sound... Its who was your trainer...

Perfect example sweet pea was a great great fight trained by George Benton.

he has not shown himself to be a great trainer. ( yet)

at what point do we look at the trainers personal resume as a trainer, and not the trainers trainer.

Of course just like getting a degree from Harvard is better then the random Jr collage degree. However we judge both graduates on their personal skill level

I see your point, but it usually is a tremendous opportunity to be a part of a proven lineage?

 

[Jukai]

Floyd Mayweather Sr. refers to their upper-body positioning as "The Crab." I've done everything I could to trace the History of this. I learned from him that his trainer was Dale Williams. And it must have had some prominence in Michigan as a regional thing because many fighters from there use it. Though Sr. didn't use it as much as Jr. does. The predecessor of this style was invented by Tommy Ryan, and taught to Jim Jeffries who took it to the Heavyweight Title. If you very closely examine photos of Jeffries, things should jump out at you:

I'll give you a hint:

Though Ryan's version was referred to as "The Crouching Crab" because Jeffries kept his knees bent, and often moved almost sideways at the opponent. Baited with the left hand a lot (which Floyd Jr. does, and Sr. teaches).

Moore's style is totally different. One of the trainers at my Gym learned in San Diego under Archie alongside Billy. Archie himself referred to it as "the lock." From everything I've been able to dig up, it was taught to him by Hiawatha Gray, himself a bare knuckle fighter (as I mentioned in the Wing Chun thread on this main page). It makes a lot of sense particularly for bare knuckles or horse hair gloves, bang on the elbows and eventually your hands hurt or break.

It's been pointed out numerous times that the term "Philly Shell" was coined by a video game. However, there WERE a few Philly fighters who used a similar position as "The Crab" for their arms. Bennie Briscoe, and of course Goergie Benton as was referred to earlier in the thread. Also Joe Frazier, and a host of Philly Gym fighters (even loosely Rocky Balboa if you really pay attention to how Stallone moved, and he's been boxing recreationally for years), including Bernard Hopkins. Though I've never discovered how this ended up in Philly, it seems to have in common everyone Benton or Futch (who worked in both Philly AND Michigan) had any influence with.

As a person who has been confused about this type of terminology since I began posting here, I give this post 20 out of 10.

 

[Confucamus]

Check out this video - the guy was known for his cross arm defense.
Pay attention to what happens at 1:57.

Great usage of that defense to set up counterpunching ...

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Here is a highlight of the exchanges of his fight with Holyfield, another guy who used a similar crossed arm guard. Holyfield was just just able to find the openings a little better. That upper cut, my god.....

 

[Jhf884]

To be fair to Enzo Calzaghe, he did have that Cruiserweight, Enzo Macaroni or something like that.

But yes, the techniques that are tried and true. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be a pedigreed lineage. Some guys have just enough History in the game to know the fundamentals, then their improvisations on that as trainers make them geniuses. For instance, I have no idea who taught Nacho Beristain. Nor Canelo's trainers. But whomever they are, they were damn good.

P.S. - SB, in the video above, Pablo is a 154lb'er, Dee is a 140lb'er, if you can believe that. I sparred Dee every other day for what seemed like a whole year when I first came to Tocco's, it was very fun and very not fun at the same time.

Nacho is one of the few trainers left who's taken, as the primary trainer, multiple youngsters from beginners to pros to champs. Seems like that used to be more common, and now it is pretty rare.
Question: Do any high level trainers in America train kids as well as pros, or do they just focus on the pros who come in already at a pretty high level?

I remember watching an HBO 24/7 w/ Marquez against Manny maybe? and they showed Nacho in the gym early one morning training a bunch of 12 year old kids. It was pretty funny ("come on, rhythm, rhythm! You call that a feint? Feint man! Come on!")

 

[Spirit Breaker]

Nacho is one of the few trainers left who's taken, as the primary trainer, multiple youngsters from beginners to pros to champs. Seems like that used to be more common, and now it is pretty rare.
Question: Do any high level trainers in America train kids as well as pros, or do they just focus on the pros who come in already at a pretty high level?

I remember watching an HBO 24/7 w/ Marquez against Manny maybe? and they showed Nacho in the gym early one morning training a bunch of 12 year old kids. It was pretty funny ("come on, rhythm, rhythm! You call that a feint? Feint man! Come on!")

Manny Steward used to work with amateurs in the gym. He wouldn't necessarily go to competitions with them, but was active in their training.

Banks and Sugar Hill also work with amateurs and pros and are becoming more well known trainers outta Kronk now that Manny has passed.

I saw that Roach did some work with the U.S. Olympic team, but I think he focuses on the pros even in his gym and has assistants work with amateurs.

 

[Jhf884]

To be fair to Enzo Calzaghe, he did have that Cruiserweight, Enzo Macaroni or something like that.

But yes, the techniques that are tried and true. And it doesn't even have to necessarily be a pedigreed lineage. Some guys have just enough History in the game to know the fundamentals, then their improvisations on that as trainers make them geniuses. For instance, I have no idea who taught Nacho Beristain. Nor Canelo's trainers. But whomever they are, they were damn good.

P.S. - SB, in the video above, Pablo is a 154lb'er, Dee is a 140lb'er, if you can believe that. I sparred Dee every other day for what seemed like a whole year when I first came to Tocco's, it was very fun and very not fun at the same time.

P.S. I believe that Arturo Hernandez was Nacho's trainer, but Nacho also used to go to Cuba a lot back in the 60s when he was the Olympic coach, and even went to Russia once or twice to learn more about physical conditioning. Nacho learned from a lot of people, and didn't stop learning once he became a trainer. I think that can be a weakness of strict lineages, b/c good trainers will soak up knowledge from multiple sources, even people they don't train directly under but who they are around.

 

[PivotPunch]

P.S. - Foreman was taught "the lock" BY Archie Moore. Archie and the Saddlers were his first trainers. He was a combination of Moore's jab, lock position, and Saddler's rough handling on the inside and short right hand.

P.P.S. - "Philly Shell" vs. "The Lock":

I always assumed the guy who made the thread was talking about the "Lock" rather than the Philly Shell/Shoulder Roll or however you wanna call it. In the Fight Night games it's called cross block I don't know what the other names are since there aren't many fighters using it today. Foreman used it in his comeback, Bert Cooper used it, I think Frazier did and today Chisora uses it.
Could you break down the history of that technique and what the advantages and disadvantages it has?
Thanks to Floyd the Shoulder Roll has become pretty popular in recent years even though it's an oldschool technique but fighters fighting out of a cross guard seem to be a rarity