Confusion about the bench press (experts needed)

SDMF said:
I thought I already said that. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am telling people to flare the elbows out or something. I'm saying that with a wider grip the elbows end up being less tucked than with a close grip. Most of the work I do stays inside pinky on the rings when I bench raw to the chest because anything wider than that and the increased elbow flare that occurs when the grip widens starts to wear on my shoulders.
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I misunderstood what you were saying, then. It seemed like you were saying "Bench with a wide grip so you can use more weight."
 
I lift to stay in shape and be functional. I don’t ever power lift for many reasons including joint stress but its my understanding that the best grip is one where your elbow comes down at a 90 degree angle. I usually work out doing super sets between incline then bench with about 225 on each. I feel I build my chest up evenly that way and don't place more emphasis on upper or lower pecs.

Like others have said if you have a wider grip you are working more of your chest and if you have a more narrow grip you are working more of your triceps. I personally don’t think it has much to do with the range it has more to do with pecs > triceps in strength. For max power/strength should be at a right angle when the bar touches your chest.
 
BYENDREY said:
I lift to stay in shape and be functional. I don’t ever power lift for many reasons including joint stress but its my understanding that the best grip is one where your elbow comes down at a 90 degree angle. I usually work out doing super sets between incline then bench with about 225 on each. I feel I build my chest up evenly that way and don't place more emphasis on upper or lower pecs.

Like others have said if you have a wider grip you are working more of your chest and if you have a more narrow grip you are working more of your triceps. I personally don’t think it has much to do with the range it has more to do with pecs > triceps in strength. For max power/strength make that elbow a right angle both at your elbow and arm pit.
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Powerlifting is not bad for your joints (in fact it's the opposite) if you perform the exercises with proper form, which it sounds like you're not - for bench press anyway. This is directly from Mark Rippetoes' Starting Strength:

"The correct humeral angle can vary quite a bit among individual lifters, from 45 degrees, halfway between right angles and touching the ribs, to about 80 degrees. If the elbows are at a full ninety degrees, in line with the shoulders, the tendons of the biceps and the rotator cuff muscles are placed in an anatomically unfriendly position that can produce chronic shoulder pain. In contrast, the other extreme position, where the humerus is essentially parallel to the torso, is not particularly hazardous, but has the disadvantage of eliminating most of the pec function from the movement - reducing the efficiency of the lift as an exercise for the whole upper body - and radically increasing the length of the lever arm against the shoulder."
 
Fresh Biscuits said:
Powerlifting is not bad for your joints (in fact it's the opposite) if you perform the exercises with proper form, which it sounds like you're not - for bench press anyway. This is directly from Mark Rippetoes' Starting Strength:

"The correct humeral angle can vary quite a bit among individual lifters, from 45 degrees, halfway between right angles and touching the ribs, to about 80 degrees. If the elbows are at a full ninety degrees, in line with the shoulders, the tendons of the biceps and the rotator cuff muscles are placed in an anatomically unfriendly position that can produce chronic shoulder pain. In contrast, the other extreme position, where the humerus is essentially parallel to the torso, is not particularly hazardous, but has the disadvantage of eliminating most of the pec function from the movement - reducing the efficiency of the lift as an exercise for the whole upper body - and radically increasing the length of the lever arm against the shoulder."
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I don't think we are on the same page here. The 90 degree angle is when the bar touches the chest not at the beginning of the movement. It shouldn't matter where you place your hands at the beggining of the movement as long as your elbows are ending up at a 90 degree angle when the bar touches your chest.

You should test it out with no weight to see what the best hand position is to align your elbows at 90 degrees when the bar touches the chest. It really isn't rocket science and actually comes out of the book the guy in your avatar wrote. :icon_chee

I see what the quote you posted is saying about the angle of the arm to the chest. I tried to clarify my post because of course your arm shouldn't be at a 90 there but at the elbow as the bar touches the chest.
 
BYENDREY said:
I don't think we are on the same page here. The 90 degree angle is when the bar touches the chest not at the beginning of the movement. It shouldn't matter where you place your hands at the beggining of the movement as long as your elbows are ending up at a 90 degree angle when the bar touches your chest.

You should test it out with no weight to see what the best hand position is to align your elbows at 90 degrees when the bar touches the chest. It really isn't rocket science and actually comes out of the book the guy in your avatar wrote. :icon_chee
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I'm still not totally sure what you're trying to say, but what I hope you're saying is that your elbows should be directly under the bar.

EDIT: I don't agree that the angle "has" to be 90 degrees when the bar touches your chest. In fact, I couldn't touch the bar to my chest if there was a 90 degree angle at my elbow. I couldn't get full range of motion, and full range of motion is the safer way to bench. The angle in my elbow is about 70 degrees when the bar touches.
 
Fresh Biscuits said:
I'm still not totally sure what you're trying to say, but what I hope you're saying is that your elbows should be directly under the bar.

EDIT: I don't agree that the angle "has" to be 90 degrees when the bar touches your chest. In fact, I couldn't touch the bar to my chest if there was a 90 degree angle at my elbow. I couldn't get full range of motion, and full range of motion is the safer way to bench. The angle in my elbow is about 70 degrees when the bar touches.
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I think you're referring to the angle of your arm to your chest when you're saying this....

I've never seen a person that couldn't touch the bar to their chest if their elbow was at a 90 degree angle. Granted I will say that a slight variation from 90 in either direction can't really hurt anything but 90 is a good rule of thumb.

So for complete clarity my arm to chest angle is probably at about 60 degrees and my elbow is at 90 degrees when the bar touches my chest. The angle of the arm to chest (in this case about 60 for me) will vary from person to person but the 90 degrees in the elbow should be the same for all when the bar touches the chest for a bench press.

That is unless you're trying to focus on inner or outer chest for isolation training or something.
 
BYEN is talking about the angle between your upper arm and forearm.

Biscuits is talking about the angle between your upper arm and torso.
 
Merrill said:
How do you focus on inner chest?
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Sometimes, it's hard not to:

inside-boob-cleavage-9.jpg

inside-boob-cleavage-12.jpg
 
BYENDREY said:
You should test it out with no weight to see what the best hand position is to align your elbows at 90 degrees when the bar touches the chest. It really isn't rocket science and actually comes out of the book the guy in your avatar wrote. :icon_chee
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We don't idolize Arnold or any BBer around here, as they may be muscular, but generally are not strong, especially at show time. We care about strength, not looks, so, to be blunt, the "upper and lower" pec garbage and similar BB rhetoric needs to not be in your posts on this forum. That's what BB.com's message boards are for.


BYENDREY said:
I think you're referring to the angle of your arm to your chest when you're saying this....

I've never seen a person that couldn't touch the bar to their chest if their elbow was at a 90 degree angle. Granted I will say that a slight variation from 90 in either direction can't really hurt anything but 90 is a good rule of thumb.

So for complete clarity my arm to chest angle is probably at about 60 degrees and my elbow is at 90 degrees when the bar touches my chest. The angle of the arm to chest (in this case about 60 for me) will vary from person to person but the 90 degrees in the elbow should be the same for all when the bar touches the chest for a bench press.

That is unless you're trying to focus on inner or outer chest for isolation training or something.
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Again, inner/outer chest. We don't care about that here. We may do some isolation for injury prevention and assistance, but we don't care about the size of muscles as much as we do the force they can put out.

Read the FAQ, please.

And as far as upper/lower arm angle, it really doesn't make a difference, so long as you're getting full ROM. If your lower arms and elbows are directly underneath the bar, unless you got a Roy Nelson belly or a heck of an arch, your arms will probably have at least slightly less than a 90 degree angle.
 
RedNeckJiuJitsu said:
We don't idolize Arnold or any BBer around here, as they may be muscular, but generally are not strong, especially at show time. We care about strength, not looks, so, to be blunt, the "upper and lower" pec garbage and similar BB rhetoric needs to not be in your posts on this forum. That's what BB.com's message boards are for.




Again, inner/outer chest. We don't care about that here. We may do some isolation for injury prevention and assistance, but we don't care about the size of muscles as much as we do the force they can put out.

Read the FAQ, please.

And as far as upper/lower arm angle, it really doesn't make a difference, so long as you're getting full ROM. If your lower arms and elbows are directly underneath the bar, unless you got a Roy Nelson belly or a heck of an arch, your arms will probably have at least slightly less than a 90 degree angle.
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I take it you
 
BYENDREY said:
. . . white trash . . . small redneck brain . . . small redneck brain . . . retards
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Great post, really part of an intelligent discussion. Before you continue, go learn more about anatomy, you'd benefit greatly (and I don't mean go look at porn).
 
BYENDREY said:
I lift to stay in shape and be functional. I don’t ever power lift for many reasons including joint stress but its my understanding that the best grip is one where your elbow comes down at a 90 degree angle. I usually work out doing super sets between incline then bench with about 225 on each. I feel I build my chest up evenly that way and don't place more emphasis on upper or lower pecs.
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BYENDREY said:
I take it you’re white trash eh?

If you read my original post you will see I lift to be functional. So for your small redneck brain I’ll break it down. It means I lift so I get the maximum benefits of strength for things like sports/fighting.

Whoever said anything about idolizing Arnold? If you think he can’t teach you something about strength and conditioning though….. again small redneck brain.
I swear there are just as many retards in these forums as knowledgeable posters.
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1) There's a big difference between redneck and white trash, and if you can't figure that out, that shows who really has the small brain. Oh, by the way, I'm a college graduate with a BBA (just shy of honors cords; maybe if I'd put some effort into class... oh well) and I'm not attracted to any members of my family or any farm animals, just to shoot down those bullshit stereotypes before you try to use them.

2) I read your original post. You start off saying you lift for functionality, but then go into great detail about your chest routine, which includes a superset of bench and incline press, which, last I checked, is not optimal for strength gains. Also, if you use the same weight/reps/sets each session, you're not really getting anywhere, and we're focused on progress, here. I also know that people who spout "functional" strength tend, generally, to be pretty weak and do lots of stupid crap compared to people who train to get stronger. While I'm not doing any formal martial arts at the moment, due to money and driving distance, I've gotten plenty of athletic benefit out of my strength training, to the point that I try not to use my strength in BJJ so as not to take a strength advantage for granted.

3) Obviously Arnold knows a lot about training, but his focus was BBing. If I want to learn about that, I'll read his book. I mean, we all know how BBers are well known for their feats of strength compared to strength athletes. /sarcasm If I want to learn about getting stronger, I'll read stuff by guys like Defranco, Wendler, Tate, Rippetoe...

You know the funny thing about that little white speck on top of chicken shit? It's chicken shit, too.

Good day, sir.
 
BYENDREY said:
Like others have said if you have a wider grip you are working more of your chest and if you have a more narrow grip you are working more of your triceps. I personally don’t think it has much to do with the range it has more to do with pecs > triceps in strength. t.
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If you were going to try to push someone over would you keep your arms at your sides or would you flare them way out? Naturally you would keep them at your sides, because that's where you are generating the most power. With a barbell the wide grip is an advantage because you are cutting down on the range of motion. Seriously the ROM for index on the ring is like, half the ROM of your index on the smooth.
 
Maybe you should squat on a bosu ball if you want to be functional.
 
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