Confusion about the bench press (experts needed)

[Erik.M.Olson]

So I just got finished watching Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength DVD and one thing I noticed in the bench press tutorial is that he says NOT to tuck your elbows in but to flare them out. He also says the distance at lockout and the bar at the bottom of the chest to be as close together as you can possibly get them (around your nipples). He then goes on to say it would be better to shove the elbows out and not down.

Now guys like Dave Tate (shown in this video) do the exact opposite and tuck the elbows in to a point there almost touching the sides of your body and bring the bar down to the top of your gut/stomach.

YouTube - Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure



So now my question is, which is the better/more proper form? Over the past few months from reading this forum i've changed my style to a more tucked in elbows style like Dave Tate's but now im wondering if I should switch back to a Rippetoe style of bench which feels more natural for me.


Bench Gods, Please Help Me

 

[Merrill]

This is an overhead view of arguably the best raw bencher ever, James Henderson. Pause the video in different places and look at the orientation of his limbs to his torso during the movement. One thing to keep an eye on is how he keeps his elbows under the bar the entire time.



Here is some other videos in which he explains it a little bit.

 

[Fresh Biscuits]

So I just got finished watching Mark Rippetoe's Starting Strength DVD and one thing I noticed in the bench press tutorial is that he says NOT to tuck your elbows in but to flare them out. He also says the distance at lockout and the bar at the bottom of the chest to be as close together as you can possibly get them (around your nipples). He then goes on to say it would be better to shove the elbows out and not down.

Now guys like Dave Tate (shown in this video) do the exact opposite and tuck the elbows in to a point there almost touching the sides of your body and bring the bar down to the top of your gut/stomach.

YouTube - Dave Tate's Six-Week Bench Press Cure



So now my question is, which is the better/more proper form? Over the past few months from reading this forum i've changed my style to a more tucked in elbows style like Dave Tate's but now im wondering if I should switch back to a Rippetoe style of bench which feels more natural for me.


Bench Gods, Please Help Me

Tucking your elbows in too far takes away from the force generated by your pecs and you end up pushing more with your triceps. If you want to work your triceps, then yes you should tuck your elbows in (and bring your grip in closer) - and that can be a great assistance exercise to help get your bench up, but it's not the right way to "bench", or to make the most strength gains. The optimal angle between your torso and your arm should be ~60 degrees.

I can't watch the video now because I'm at work, but I'm assuming that what he's doing is assistance. You simply can't lift as much with your triceps as you can with your chest.

 

[SDMF]

In a raw bench you don't tuck as much as you would in a shirt bench but you still need to make an elbow correction at the top. Make the elbow correction, tuck your elbows into a natural position. It should be something like a 50-60 degree angle but it varies from person to person. Touch at the sternum and drive the weight up. If the bar stalls out you let it drift towards the rack until you get into a strong position to lock it out. I wouldn't watch Rippetoe's videos for form... He just doesn't seem to care much about the setup at all. If you watch this for example you can see some pretty poor form.

 

[Merrill]

I can't watch the video now because I'm at work, but I'm assuming that what he's doing is assistance. You simply can't lift as much with your triceps as you can with your chest.

The first 2 videos of Henderson are regular grip and the third is close grip.

 

[Fresh Biscuits]

The first 2 videos of Henderson are regular grip and the third is close grip.

For some reason those videos actually play here at work. That is some sick benching!

 

[SDMF]

I can't watch the video now because I'm at work, but I'm assuming that what he's doing is assistance. You simply can't lift as much with your triceps as you can with your chest.

I wonder what makes you think you don't use your chest in a close grip? Wide grip is easier because it cuts the range of motion.

 

[Fresh Biscuits]

I wonder what makes you think you don't use your chest in a close grip? Wide grip is easier because it cuts the range of motion.

I'm not saying you're not using your chest with close grip, you definitely are. But the more you tuck your elbows in, the more tricep you use. Agree? You can't tuck your elbows in AND have a wide grip.

 

[SDMF]

I'm not saying you're not using your chest with close grip, you definitely are. But the more you tuck your elbows in, the more tricep you use. Agree? You can't tuck your elbows in AND have a wide grip.

Yeah, the wider your grip is, the less tucked your elbows will be so you will be using more pec/delt. But for example my close grip is only about 10-15lbs below my max wide grip bench so it varies from person to person... What I'm trying to say is that wide grip vs close grip doesn't really tell you anything about pec strength vs tricep strength. For me the only benefit I get from going wider is that I don't have to move the bar as far. If I took away the benefit of the reduced range of motion (like if I was moving the bar the same distance with either grip) I would be much stronger with a close grip.

edit: You can't really say "it's best to be tucked this many degrees" because it's going to depend on where you are gripping the bar... A tricep dominant guy who has his pinkies on the ring or his hand inside the ring won't tuck as much as a guy who is maxing out his grip. The closer the grip, the more tucked your elbows will tend to be. A lot of it really depends on the person and where they are strong.

 

[Fresh Biscuits]

Yeah, the wider your grip is, the less tucked your elbows will be so you will be using more pec/delt. But for example my close grip is only about 10-15lbs below my max wide grip bench so it varies from person to person... What I'm trying to say is that wide grip vs close grip doesn't really tell you anything about pec strength vs tricep strength. For me the only benefit I get from going wider is that I don't have to move the bar as far. If I took away the benefit of the reduced range of motion (like if I was moving the bar the same distance with either grip) I would be much stronger with a close grip.

edit: You can't really say "it's best to be tucked this many degrees" because it's going to depend on where you are gripping the bar... A tricep dominant guy who has his pinkies on the ring or his hand inside the ring won't tuck as much as a guy who is maxing out his grip. The closer the grip, the more tucked your elbows will tend to be. A lot of it really depends on the person and where they are strong.

All I'm saying is that close grip, elbows tucked pressing uses more tricep strength relative to a regular grip bench press. I'm not sure what a normal ratio of wide grip to close grip numbers might be - you may just have strong triceps. But the OP's original question was about bench form, and if your elbows are tucked, it's not a "bench press", it's "close grip bench press".

Yes, a wide grip reduces your range of motion, but I don't really consider that a "benefit" if you want to increase your overall strength. The weight should go through the full ROM.

I agree that every person is unique and there will always be exceptions, but if you were coaching someone who's never bench pressed before, I'd say a good starting point would be at 60 degrees. Adjustments would need to be made to make sure that the bar is over the elbows, over the nipples etc., but as a general rule I think it's about right.

Good discussion!

 

[SDMF]

All I'm saying is that close grip, elbows tucked pressing uses more tricep strength relative to a regular grip bench press. I'm not sure what a normal ratio of wide grip to close grip numbers might be - you may just have strong triceps. But the OP's original question was about bench form, and if your elbows are tucked, it's not a "bench press", it's "close grip bench press".

Yes, a wide grip reduces your range of motion, but I don't really consider that a "benefit" if you want to increase your overall strength. The weight should go through the full ROM.

I agree that every person is unique and there will always be exceptions, but if you were coaching someone who's never bench pressed before, I'd say a good starting point would be at 60 degrees. Adjustments would need to be made to make sure that the bar is over the elbows, over the nipples etc., but as a general rule I think it's about right.

Good discussion!

It's still a bench press. Anything that is inside of the maximum grip of the index finger on the ring is still technically a bench press and would still pass in a powerlifting meet. I bench press so I can bench press more. When I say I can get more going from a wide grip because it cuts the ROM I mean more weight. I think this is why most people bench press. "Functional strength" is something I don't really care about because I think it's an ambiguous concept. If you really only care about functional strength, a close-grip, like thumbs distance from the smooth would probably be more "functional" than a wider grip as the range of motion is longer + if you wanted to push someone over you would probably keep your elbows close to your body, it's just a more natural position. Linemen are taught to keep the elbows tucked and drive through, so a close grip more naturally mimics that kind of thing.

 

[RedNeckJiuJitsu]

While there are PLers here, SDMF, generally, we here lift to get stronger. The important thing is finding the form that allows you to lift the most weight safely in basic movements, and add weight, reps, sets, or all three each time you do the movement. While there are instances where a shorter ROM can help you move more weight, it might not be best in the long run, especially for a martial artist.

 

[SDMF]

While there are PLers here, SDMF, generally, we here lift to get stronger. The important thing is finding the form that allows you to lift the most weight safely in basic movements, and add weight, reps, sets, or all three each time you do the movement. While there are instances where a shorter ROM can help you move more weight, it might not be best in the long run, especially for a martial artist.

Not sure what the issue is here... He brought up functional strength so I pointed out that close-grips are more "functional strength" than typical wide grip bench pressing (pinky on the ring or wider) for precisely the reason that you specified. A close grip bench has a longer range of motion, it has greater analogues to most contact sports that I can think of (again, the example of the lineman), and on top of that it is safer for the joints. Because the elbows are tucked to a greater extend in the close grip bench the stress is directed away from the vulnerable anterior deltoid and pectoral area to the triceps. I know people with numerous shoulder injuries who cannot safely touch their chest with a wide grip but have no issues with a thumbs-from-smooth close grip).

So basically what I am getting to is that I really doubt most people's goals are truly all that different from mine because they are essentially using wide-grip "non-functional" powerlifting form. Many shirted bench pressers will rarely go inside "pinky on the ring" and consider that a "close-grip", while more raw-focused lifters will go much narrower, often thumbs from smooth or even index on the ring (as demonstrated in the James Henderson video earlier in this thread). He even says "this is where my power comes from" as he takes the close grip.

I prefer to use a wider grip most of the time because it lets me move more weight, and helps me get stronger in the form that lets me use more weight, which is my goal.

 

[k1ck]

That's why I don't like powerlifting... they could bench with close grip much more safely, lose maybe 5-15 kg. Yet they do all kinds of stupid shit to get few extra kg's...

It's like Konstantninovs said : why inflamate and irritate the joints and ligaments if you can take closer grip, use little less weight, and lose that dangerous ligament/pec/shoulder strain.

 

[RedNeckJiuJitsu]

So basically what I am getting to is that I really doubt most people's goals are truly all that different from mine because they are essentially using wide-grip "non-functional" powerlifting form. Many shirted bench pressers will rarely go inside "pinky on the ring" and consider that a "close-grip", while more raw-focused lifters will go much narrower, often thumbs from smooth or even index on the ring (as demonstrated in the James Henderson video earlier in this thread). He even says "this is where my power comes from" as he takes the close grip.

I prefer to use a wider grip most of the time because it lets me move more weight, and helps me get stronger in the form that lets me use more weight, which is my goal.

I didn't see the word functional at all in Biscuit's post.

And while if your goal is just a bigger bench, I agree that you should find what works best for you, I also feel that you should take care of your shoulders. I have a slight AC Joint separation that I partially blame on flared elbow benching before I knew any better.

 

[RedNeckJiuJitsu]

Also, SDMF, you say in your post that most raw lifters lift better with a narrower grip than you use, which lends itself to elbows being at least slightly tucked.

 

[SDMF]

That's why I don't like powerlifting... they could bench with close grip much more safely, lose maybe 5-15 kg. Yet they do all kinds of stupid shit to get few extra kg's...

It's like Konstantninovs said : why inflamate and irritate the joints and ligaments if you can take closer grip, use little less weight, and lose that dangerous ligament/pec/shoulder strain.

Good idea but as soon as the guy next to you decides to move out 2 hand spaces and throw up an extra 30-40lbs over what you did that goes out the window... Nobody wants to leave weight on the platform in a meet that they spent half a year training for. It's part of the reason shirts became so popular among elite lifters... Guys were putting up big weights raw but the maxed-out grip and the flared-elbow form was wearing their bodies down and there were a lot of pec/delt injuries associated with raw benching... Of course some guys had sick genetics that let them keep getting stronger, but most hit a wall at some point where they would just keep getting hurt.

Pretty soon you got a lot of injured guys thinking "fuck raw, I'll bench in a shirt and train with boards year round". And of course that evolved into stronger and stronger shirts and lots of feds. Today there isn't a huge difference between single ply and double ply 'cept the double ply is less likely to blow out and allows more weight to be used.

Also, SDMF, you say in your post that most raw lifters lift better with a narrower grip than you use, which lends itself to elbows being at least slightly tucked.

I thought I already said that. I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am telling people to flare the elbows out or something. I'm saying that with a wider grip the elbows end up being less tucked than with a close grip. Most of the work I do stays inside pinky on the rings when I bench raw to the chest because anything wider than that and the increased elbow flare that occurs when the grip widens starts to wear on my shoulders.

 

[XPirate]

All I'm saying is that close grip, elbows tucked pressing uses more tricep strength relative to a regular grip bench press.

Yeah, the wider your grip is, the less tucked your elbows will be so you will be using more pec/delt.

There isn't really an argument.

 

[SDMF]

There isn't really an argument.

Yeah we are just talking for the most part.

 

[Radon]

Great thread dudes. Lot of information and a few things I haven't considered with my bench. Also James Henderson is the fucking shit.

I've moved to a wider bench with pinkies just barely outside the rings at 5'8 with longish arms, and although I've seen a slight increase in weight with a wider grip I might move in a hair to reduce shoulder strain as lately I've been noticing some very minor irritation.

It's a good point that 5-15kg or really any amount of weight increase and ego boost isn't worth ultimately chronic shoulder injuries.