Circling The Arguments (SCO thread v. 32)

[andnowweknow]

So this is the new conspiracy?

I don't think you know what a conspiracy is. Or nuance apparently.

 

[method115]

There are other things Barr said would be redacted and nobody thinks Mueller would be involved in making those decisions.

Do you have a link for this all I could find was this:

Prosecutors from the office of the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, and other law enforcement officials are scouring the report for sensitive information to black out before releasing it, including secret grand jury testimony, classified materials and information about other continuing federal investigations, Mr. Barr wrote.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/us/politics/barr-mueller-report.html

 

[andnowweknow]

Do you have a link for this all I could find was this:

Prosecutors from the office of the special counsel, Robert S. Mueller III, and other law enforcement officials are scouring the report for sensitive information to black out before releasing it, including secret grand jury testimony, classified materials and information about other continuing federal investigations, Mr. Barr wrote.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/29/us/politics/barr-mueller-report.html

this is what people have a problem with regarding information...

1) Grand jury information.
2) Material that the intelligence community thinks could compromise sensitive sources and methods
3) Material that could affect ongoing “matters”
4) Information that could affect the privacy and reputational interests of “peripheral third parties”

But it's all vague...the report just needs to be shown to the congress and that's that. Number 4 above particular could easily be abused by Barr to prevent damaging info from coming out about people, Trump or those in his direct orbit. Sorry, but their reputations are secondary to oversight.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Muellers team is working with Barr to get the document redacted so include them in the they.

Mueller's team would have the best understanding of what should be redacted under any specific requirements. They have been doing it all the way through.

They would have no choice but to follow orders from the boss, other than quitting if he says 'redact based on the following...'.

 

[MikeMcMann]

There is literally no way to verify this outside of hearing it directly from Mueller. And nobody thinks Mueller is running this redaction show...it's Trump and his administration running it.

So this is the new conspiracy?

It was reported on MSNBC but I guess if we've gone into the don't believe the media territory then your right will never know without Mueller telling us.

there is nothing to believe or not here.

Barr is directing this now. If Barr gives an order to Mueller's team, who are still there under DOJ employ...

"I need to get these documents out and need you to redact them based on not disclosing any grand jury info, and not disclosing the following..."


What exactly do you @method115 and you @CrazyN8 think Mueller and his team will do other than what the Boss orders?

Were you guys under some strange assumption that Mueller is controlling the info choices given to Congress? Is there some weird CT here that in fact Mueller is secretly Barr's boss and not the other way around and that is being hidden from us??

 

[bobgeese]

The desperation of the liberal here is fantastic.

Please, please... prolong your embarrassment.

Thanks.

 

[Bloody Pulp]

there is nothing to believe or not here.

Barr is directing this now. If Barr gives an order to Mueller's team, who are still there under DOJ employ...

"I need to get these documents out and need you to redact them based on not disclosing any grand jury info, and not disclosing the following..."


What exactly do you @method115 and you @CrazyN8 think Mueller and his team will do other than what the Boss orders?

Were you guys under some strange assumption that Mueller is controlling the info choices given to Congress? Is there some weird CT here that in fact Mueller is secretly Barr's boss and not the other way around and that is being hidden from us??

Go in front of Congress and say I didn’t agree with those things being redacted for X reasons but the AG ordered it to be so for Y reasons?

Crazy I know.

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

Sorry let me clarify, anyone in this thread. Though Trump might be here, you never know.

Nobody yet on here, the right wing talking point is still based on Trump's initial bravado that the full report should be released because it fully exonerates Trump, and that a release of the full report will just expand on Barr's conclusions of "no collusion, no obstruction". Trump is changing his tune though, so that usually means that the ditto heads on here will start bleating back the new talking points once Trump, Hannity, Rush get on the same page.

 

[MikeMcMann]

Go in front of Congress and say I didn’t agree with those things being redacted for X reasons but the AG ordered it to be so for Y reasons?

Crazy I know.

He can certainly say that and likely will when Congress calls him. He is known as a mostly straight shooter who does not pull his punches for anyone.

He can disagree with Barr's characterization of the findings or his redactions and the time for him to say that is when eventually before congress. Until then it is not his job nor should it be the expectation that he will not do his job as directed by the AG even if he would do it differently, given the choice.

 

[Ophydian]

"The problem is, no matter what the Radical Left Democrats get, no matter what we give them, it will never be enough. Just watch, they will Harass & Complain & Resist (the theme of their movement). So maybe we should just take our victory and say NO, we’ve got a Country to run!" Donald J. Trump 3/29/19

He just did it again on live television.

I see this as a very savvy political move on trumps part. By now publicly stating that we shouldn’t release the report will only inflame the left wing media and the left wing parties into a frenzy and they will start with their conspiracy theories on why he won’t release it.

If the report is much ado about nothing then Trump can use the media frenzy and the Democratic response to his benefit in the 2020 elections to prove that there are people out to get him.

If there is damaging or not as pretty as a picture in the report he can always play his games of distraction spin and flat out alternative facts.

 

[andnowweknow]

I see this as a very savvy political move on trumps part. By now publicly stating that we shouldn’t release the report will only inflame the left wing media and the left wing parties into a frenzy and they will start with their conspiracy theories on why he won’t release it.

If the report is much ado about nothing then Trump can use the media frenzy and the Democratic response to his benefit in the 2020 elections to prove that there are people out to get him.

If there is damaging or not as pretty as a picture in the report he can always play his games of distraction spin and flat out alternative facts.

There is no intense brilliance going on here. It's just Trump doing what he do. Namely, lying.

 

[BudKing8806]

Look at everyone here acting like they know what the fuck is going to be in the report or if it will be highly redacted.

 

[Cake4Breakfast]

I see this as a very savvy political move on trumps part. By now publicly stating that we shouldn’t release the report will only inflame the left wing media and the left wing parties into a frenzy and they will start with their conspiracy theories on why he won’t release it.

If the report is much ado about nothing then Trump can use the media frenzy and the Democratic response to his benefit in the 2020 elections to prove that there are people out to get him.

If there is damaging or not as pretty as a picture in the report he can always play his games of distraction spin and flat out alternative facts.

I just don't think Trump has that type of forethought and has a hard time keeping his story straight (e.g., in his candlelight dinner trying to seduce Comey he told Comey that Preibus didn't know they were meeting and then a few minutes later said that Preibus did), he is like the one of those psychic cons that just extemporaneously throw a bunch of shit out until believers hear something they like, and then he runs with it until he needs to find something new to give to his base. When Barr's interpretive essay made the report seem good, Trump was all for transparency and starting blabbering at health care (again, him just throwing shit out there) but as he came to realize that the report, and more specifically the obstruction question, could still pose a political threat to him now it's "no matter what we do, they will never be happy, so let's not do anything else". I assume mostly though that Trump's mindset is influenced by what Barr has told people in the White House about his plans for protecting the "privacy" and "reputation" of Team Trump, but overall, Trump is a day trader.

 

[andnowweknow]

Look at everyone here acting like they know what the fuck is going to be in the report or if it will be highly redacted.

 

[Fawlty]

Look at everyone here acting like they know what the fuck is going to be in the report or if it will be highly redacted.

That comment would apply mostly to people who assume the report exonerates Trump, although I doubt you actually meant that comment for what it means.

 

[andnowweknow]

The desperation of the liberal here is fantastic.

Please, please... prolong your embarrassment.

Thanks.

 

[bobgeese]

I take it that’s from snl?


I can tell because it’s not funny...

 

[BudKing8806]

That comment would apply mostly to people who assume the report exonerates Trump, although I doubt you actually meant that comment for what it means.

It was meant for both sides.

 

[Andy Capp]

"It didn’t have to be this way. Barr could have written a letter containing lengthy quotations from the report itself. He could have reached out to congressional leaders, shown them as much of the report as possible now and negotiated a timetable for them to see the rest. That would have been consistent with the transparency Barr pledged during his confirmation process.

Instead, Barr has refused to commit to ever letting Congress see the full report. In the face of a request by House Judiciary Committee Chairman Jerry Nadler for the “full and complete Mueller report” by April 2, Barr appears committed to release only a redacted version to “the appropriate congressional committees,” including Nadler’s.

Barr’s position is indefensible. The Constitution gives the “the sole Power of Impeachment” to the House of Representatives, and the House Judiciary Committee has jurisdiction over impeachments. The Mueller investigation was, among other things, an investigation into possible criminal conduct by the president of the United States. There is no legal principle, including the separation of powers, that would permit the executive branch to block the results of an investigation into crimes allegedly committed by the president from the House of Representatives. To do so would deny the House’s ability to carry out its constitutional power of impeachment."

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/03/30/william-barr-mueller-report-226340

That's probably why he's adopted a new position.
AG Bill Barr raises new questions with unusual and unexpected letter

“I am aware of some media reports and other public statements mischaracterizing my March 24, 2019, supplemental notification as a ‘summary’ of the Special Counsel’s investigation and report,” Barr wrote. He added, “My March 24 letter was not, and did not purport to be, an exhaustive recounting of the Special Counsel’s investigation or report. As my letter made clear, my notification to Congress and the public provided, pending release of the report, a summary of its ‘principal conclusions’ – that is, its bottom line…. I do not believe it would be in the public’s interest for me to attempt to summarize the full report or to release it in serial or piecemeal fashion.”

And why is it, exactly, that Barr is suddenly concerned – after five days of political turmoil, fueled by his own document – that people might perceive his characterizations of the Mueller report as a summary? Maybe he’s suddenly taken a pedantic turn, maybe he’s concerned about the gaps between his document and the special counsel’s, or maybe the attorney general is eager to alter public expectations ahead of partial disclosure in mid-April.

Also note, as part of Barr’s latest letter, he appears to have moved the goalposts on what will be cut from the Mueller report before anyone, including members of Congress, can see it. In his non-summary summary, the attorney general said he intended to exclude grand-jury information – a controversial position in its own right – as well as information related to ongoing investigations and cases.

Late last week, however, Barr decided to add a couple of additional categories: the attorney general also intends to cut out information important to the intelligence community and information that would “unduly infringe on the personal privacy and reputational interests of peripheral third parties.”

On the first point, it’s very hard to imagine Mueller and his team leaving sensitive intelligence in their report, asking the attorney general to take the lead on redactions. But on the second, how and why did Barr come up with the standard of hiding information that some unknown parties might find embarrassing? Who gets to decide who counts as a “third party”? Is it up to the attorney general to define “peripheral” in a way he likes?

And since when does the head of the Justice Department consider it his job to shield the “reputational interests” of people related to a special counsel’s investigation?

Here's a question, "On Capitol Hill, meanwhile, Democratic leaders set a deadline for Barr to submit the full Mueller report, without redactions, by April 2 – which happens to be tomorrow. That deadline has not been extended." Can anyone confirm whether this happened?

 

[andnowweknow]

That's probably why he's adopted a new position.
AG Bill Barr raises new questions with unusual and unexpected letter



Here's a question, "On Capitol Hill, meanwhile, Democratic leaders set a deadline for Barr to submit the full Mueller report, without redactions, by April 2 – which happens to be tomorrow. That deadline has not been extended." Can anyone confirm whether this happened?

Subpoenas fly today...right up Bill Barr's fat jabba the hut rectum. Sweet bird of all that is just.